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Source: (consider it) Thread: Scotland the Brave 2017
Curiosity killed ...

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Are you sure they weren't polecats? Which are found in the wild naturally.

I've watched the first two episodes of the Orkney programme and have so far spotted one of the volunteers who was staying in the hostel at Kirkwall at the same time we were, and an archaeologist who attended a training dig I helped run 10-15 years ago. We saw the dig happening when we explored in that direction of Mainland.

Alan, I have an incredibly dense description of micro-stratigraphy in archaeology text I use with new teachers (along with extracts on transition metals in enzymes and the forces on a circular track) to help them understand how challenging school textbooks are for poor readers. Textbooks need a reading age of 11 or 12 usually, it is not uncommon to encounter students with reading ages of 6 or 7 in secondary schools. These texts were ones I could find with reading ages of 22 and 23. I now don't want any of my victims to find your descriptions.

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Jengie jon

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They 'invaded' in the 1950s and 1960s and were declared eradicated in 2011. Their range does not seem to have gone down as far south in the archipelago as Iona. The fact that there is a noisy healthy population of corncrakes would suggest their absence.

Jengie

[ 22. January 2017, 09:44: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Alan, I have an incredibly dense description of micro-stratigraphy in archaeology text I use with new teachers (along with extracts on transition metals in enzymes and the forces on a circular track) to help them understand how challenging school textbooks are for poor readers. Textbooks need a reading age of 11 or 12 usually, it is not uncommon to encounter students with reading ages of 6 or 7 in secondary schools. These texts were ones I could find with reading ages of 22 and 23. I now don't want any of my victims to find your descriptions.

I'm trying to work out if you're saying my very brief outline of luminescence dating is even less clear than your example text book, or incredibly lucid. I hope the latter.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Sorry, lucid

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Bishops Finger
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Luminescence dating and voles?

Is it just me, or is this thread becoming somewhat surreal?

(None the worse for that, though, IMHO).

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Piglet
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Slightly surreal, but certainly intellectually stimulating. [Overused]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Bishops Finger
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Rather like Scotland itself then, no?

[Big Grin]

Love the Orcadian Voles, though.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Stercus Tauri
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Pretty sure they weren't pole cats. Checking Google images, they were about the right size, shape and colouring for mink. Or large voles.

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
They 'invaded' in the 1950s and 1960s and were declared eradicated in 2011. Their range does not seem to have gone down as far south in the archipelago as Iona. The fact that there is a noisy healthy population of corncrakes would suggest their absence.

Jengie

I saw the supposed mink in the dunes near the short grass of the grazing at the north end. I think the preferred habitat of the corncrakes is the areas of longer grass nearer the village, which is where I've mostly heard them. It was probably before 2011 - shaky memory - that I saw the mink, so perhaps they were still at large at that time. Always open to a better explanation - I'm no naturalist.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Bishops Finger
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Perhaps all the mink have been eaten by battalions of VOLES from Orkney, sailing about on their rafts?

[Paranoid]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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North East Quine

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Slightly surreal, but intellectually stimulating might describe my lengthy wait for a bus at Aberdeen bus station last week. A couple of us expressed our disappointment at finding ourselves waiting in sub zero temperatures to a passing bus station employee. "Just be grateful you're not in Aleppo or Beruit" he replied. "You'd have more to worry about then than a late bus." We all agreed that he had a point,then one woman said that her son had worked in Syria, and liked the people. However she disapproved of the hijab. To which the bus station employee said that he thought there should be a happy medium between hijab and young Scottish lassies "dressed like tarts" He then added, bafflingly, "And waxing,what the hell is that about?"

[Eek!] How does a conversation between strangers at a bus stop go from "how much longer is this bus going to be?" to "why do women wax?" in six sentences? [Eek!]

By the time the bus actually arrived, we had covered the winter of discontent, Nicola Sturgeon, the rail strikes in England, whether it would be possible to nationalise the buses and, if possible, whether it would be desirable to do so, overbooking by British Airways, Donald Trump, and whether, in the days of using newspaper squares for toilet paper, it was posher to hang the squares on a string or impale them on a nail.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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If those squares include photos of Trump, Farage or other fascist politicians then there's no debate ... the nail has it nailed.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Piglet
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I should imagine you could get several years' supply from the newspapers of the last (and the coming) few days.

[Devil]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Bishops Finger
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Not in my loo will such Trumpery be found. My Scottish/French p** is far too good to waste on Garbage, Mango Mussolini et al....

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Sandemaniac
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...and today Scots everywhere celebrate their national poet, a man who drank and shagged himself into the ground at 37.

Good work that man!

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Cottontail

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quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
...and today Scots everywhere celebrate their national poet, a man who drank and shagged himself into the ground at 37.

Good work that man!

AG

Ahem.

As one who has in her time delivered The Immortal Memory and did here research thereon, Burns died for neither drinking nor shagging reasons.

Google suggests it was rheumatic fever; elsewhere I have read that he contracted bacterial endocarditis, i.e., an infection of the inner lining of the heart. Hard to diagnose from a distance, but my quick googling suggests that they are both caused pretty much the same way - by a bacterial infection - and have similar symptoms.

So basically, the poor man caught a streptococcal infection as a result of a dental extraction, and it spread to his heart. He had also lived through months of actual famine, which culminated in the Dumfries Food Riots of March 1796. It was a slow and miserable death, poor chap.

[ 25. January 2017, 10:43: Message edited by: Cottontail ]

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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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Baptist Trainfan
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Well, we bought our haggis this morning.

When I took it out of the shopping bag it leaped from my hand and rolled around on the floor. Clearly a free-range one, straight from the wild Cairngorms (well, Carluke actually)!

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Bishops Finger
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Och aye, feisty wee beasties they maun be - but nae sleekit or timorous...!

*hic* Slainte!

(Cheers)

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Baptist Trainfan
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You've clearly been at the Irn-Bru again! [Cool]
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Bishops Finger
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Och, ma puir heid....

[Projectile]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Sandemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
Ahem.

Well that told me, didn't it? There I was looking for some alcoholic escapism, and I get proper history instead. Mind you, I didn't realise we had real famines in the "mainland"* Union that late - I thought the last ones were in the sixteenth century in Northern England. That I guess is what comes of being a Saes Neg.

AG

*thus dodging Ireland and spuds

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Cottontail

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quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
Ahem.

Well that told me, didn't it? There I was looking for some alcoholic escapism, and I get proper history instead. Mind you, I didn't realise we had real famines in the "mainland"* Union that late - I thought the last ones were in the sixteenth century in Northern England. That I guess is what comes of being a Saes Neg.

AG

*thus dodging Ireland and spuds

According to this reputable source, 1795/6 took us "to the brink of famine". So we are both right. [Biased]

The riots happened all across the country too. The first and third google hits for "bread riots 1795" are Tewkesbury and Islington.

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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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Piglet
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Whatever he died of (for some reason I always imagined it was tuberculosis*), I hope you've all enjoyed your haggis, clapshot. whisky and poetry.**

Slainte mhor!

* what respectable poets and composers died of. Unrespectable ones died of syphilis.

** According to D., we'd be much better celebrating MacGonnigall, as his poetry's more fun. [Big Grin]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Cottontail

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I delivered the Immortal Memory of Robert Burns in the style of William McGonagal. It was frightening how easy it was to write bad poetry.

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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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North East Quine

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There was famine in the north of Scotland in the late 1690s. Hekla erupted in 1693. Most of the ash fell on Scandinavia, causing famine there, but enough fell on northern Scotland to cause several consecutive years of poor harvest. Aberdeen closed its gates to poor people leaving the countryside in search of food in the city. Poor relief provision collapsed under the strain.

The Scottish government introduced a one off poll tax in 1696. The poll tax records are a great boon to family historians (assuming your ancestors were sufficiently well off to be assessed for the tax.)

Just last week I was cross referencing the parish poll tax lists with the list of first communicants in the early C18th Kirk session records. (Yes, my life really is that exciting!)

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North East Quine

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(Our Kirk session records start in 1713, so the poll tax lists are a way of pushing the parish history back into the C17th).
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Sandemaniac
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Actually that's really interesting because I think my Sandemans (Sandemen?) just creep back past 1696.

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Stercus Tauri
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quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
I delivered the Immortal Memory of Robert Burns in the style of William McGonagal. It was frightening how easy it was to write bad poetry.

But so satisfying...

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Piglet
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Actually that's really interesting because I think my Sandemans (Sandemen?) just creep back past 1696.

I reckon any history that you can relate to "real" people is interesting. My last job involved using a computer program to produce family trees for a genetics researcher, and I was particularly impressed with one that went back to the 1690s - when William and Mary were the rulers of Britain and Bach could only just reach the pedals.

[Cool]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Bishops Finger
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Ah yes - the USA is not the only country to be ruled by an Orange.

I'll see meself out...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Barnabas Aus
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Especially for Piglet and any other Orcadians who haunt these pages. BBC News
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Uncle Pete

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
Especially for Piglet and any other Orcadians who haunt these pages. BBC News

Fixed that for you

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Even more so than I was before

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Bishops Finger
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Good heavens! He looks like Richard Branson.....
[Eek!]

A wonderful photo of the Cathedral, too - what a superb building. I bet the Church of Norway would like it back....
[Two face]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Sandemaniac
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It's stunning inside too - and they run high-level tours of all the stuff under the eaves. Not for the vertigo-inclined, but great fun if you can handle heights.


A

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Piglet
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Good heavens! He looks like Richard Branson.....

I thought so too, BF, although D. reckoned Noel Edmunds. [Killing me]

I'm glad you liked the Cathedral - pretty stunning, eh? [Smile]

Piglet, proudly Orcadian

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Bishops Finger
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Hmm. I see what D. means, though!

Given the historical period during which St. Magnus lived and died, one somehow feels that a proper silver reliquary would be a better setting for his mortal remains, rather than being walled up in a pillar (splendid and Romanesque though it might be).

Perhaps when the Church of Norway acquires it (the Cathedral, I mean)?

[Two face]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Piglet
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I don't know - I've always been used to the fact that he's in the pillar on one side of the organ pipes, and St. Rognvald (his nephew, who built the cathedral in his memory) is on the other.

I understand it's quite rare (possibly even unique) to have the bones of both the founder and the patron saint in the same place.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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moonlitdoor
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Has anyone here been to Knoydart ? Ideally by walking but I am also interested in your experience if you've been by boat. It has long been an ambition of mine, if I would be physically up to the challenge.

I mean in the summer rather than now, I am definitely not that tough.

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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Bishops Finger
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Piglet, this is rapidly becoming the Orcadian thread, but none the worse for that! Something of a Terra Incognita to those of us whose nearest next county (almost) is France.... [Ultra confused]

You may well be right in thinking that St. Magnus Cathedral is unique in housing the bodies of both founder and patron. I see from their website that the place of St. Magnus' interment is marked with a neat plaque - does St. Rognvald have one, too?

And am I right in thinking that the Cathedral is the largest Romanesque building in Northern Europe?

I'm not really up to travelling far at the moment, but perhaps one day.....?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Baptist Trainfan
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Well, we are going to hear an Orcadian folk-group next Monday - in Colchester, Essex!
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Bishops Finger
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Enjoy! No doubt a mixture of Orcadian, Scottish, Faroese, Norse etc. music and songs - will there be dancing too?

TBH, a lot of Nordic folk music sounds similar, to me at any rate, which perhaps is because of our common roots, ancestry, history etc. All of which, like much music the world over, transcends political and language barriers....

Here's the Kirkjuvagr* Ceilidh Band playing Shetland music, just to show how ecumenical the Orcadians are!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEfbsArE_ig&nohtml5=False

(*the Norse version of Kirkwall)

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Piglet
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After watching BF's link, it clicked on to the next one and there, in the front of the picture watching the dancers, was one of my best friends from school.

Small world, eh? [Smile]

I wouldn't have thought that St. Magnus was the biggest Romanesque building in northern Europe* but I think it's probably regarded as one of the finest.

* it was built by the same people who built Durham Cathedral (it was the next job along) and is rather like a smaller version of Durham.

[ 11. February 2017, 03:25: Message edited by: Piglet ]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Curiosity killed ...

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# 11770

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We visited Orkney last summer - and attended a service in St Magnus's. The building was incredible, but I struggled with the service - non-conformist, sermon based on an OT reading that had me trying very hard to go to sleep in preference to hearing it. However, the monthly in summer (RC) service in the Italian chapel the same afternoon was simple and dignified with a sermon on peace and reconciliation that has stayed with me.

The statue of John Rae in St Magnus entranced me. He's portrayed asleep, with boots and gun. (There's another statue of him in Stromness, standing, ready to sail.)

Bishop's Finger - I went to Orkney with my daughter, just after she had had hand surgery*. She's losing mobility, but we managed to get around on buses and a minimum of walking around, much to my disappointment because I'd love to cycle or walk more. We tried to visit Skara Brae, but the weather was too windy for it to be safe to go down to the village, and the Ring of Brodgar the same day. I walked up to the Ring and was struggling to hold a camera up to take pictures in that wind while she opted out.

She didn't have long to go away so we parted at Inverness on the way back and I travelled south via Aberdeen, Stonehaven and Dunottar Castle then Arran and Lochranza.

*She was still in a cast and her operation wound became infected. The accident and emergency in Kirkwall was brilliant, much better than that on offer in Thurso. Fortunately I can't comment on A&E in Inverness, but it was close.

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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I think you must all be working for the Orkney Tourist Board! I really must make the effort one day.....soon.....

Piglet, I had forgotten (!) about Durham Cathedral, which probably is the biggest Romanesque church in Northern Europe. Kirkwall still looks pretty impressive, though. Given what CK has said, maybe the liturgy could do with tweaking a little....er.... higher up the candle?

[Two face]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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Another joy was the dolphin in the harbour at Kirkwall. We wandered down for fish and chips, found the dolphin and stayed to watch (gluten free takes much longer). One pass near the harbour wall seemed designed to make sure we could all get a good identification. Somewhere I have photos of red telephone boxes near the cathedral being removed.

I loved Dunottar Castle and Stonehaven too, not so impressed by Aberdeen. And I liked Arran and Lochranza so much we're going back this year.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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cattyish

Wuss in Boots
# 7829

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My folks moved to Caithness in 1977 and Dad still lives on the north coast. We can see The Old Man of Hoy from Scarfskerry.

Caithness is behind Orkney in making use of the natural, historical and cultural resources for tourism. New projects like The Caithness Broch Project and North Coast 500 are opening up opportunities for visitors and residents.

Cattyish, lazy today

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Piglet
Islander
# 11803

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
... maybe the liturgy could do with tweaking a little....er.... higher up the candle?

The Cathedral is in a unique position in that it doesn't belong to any particular church. It was given to the burghers (the town officials) of Kirkwall in the 1500s by the King of Scotland because he thought the bishop was getting too uppity, and to this day belongs to the people of Kirkwall.

Its (considerable) upkeep is paid for by Orkney Islands Council and the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) has the use of it for services. All the congregation has to pay is the salaries of the minister and organist* and half the heat and light.

When we lived there, the services were very traditional Church of Scotland - always beginning with a metrical psalm, then a sandwich of hymns, lessons, sermon, anthem. The style has changed somewhat since we left, and become a little less formally structured, although they still follow the same basic pattern.

Having said that, in the last couple of years they introduced a bank of votive candles, which would have some late members of the congregation spinning in their graves ... [Eek!]

I quite like the idea of the North Coast 500; I suppose I must have travelled the right-hand side of it at least 500 times. I always love it when you start seeing signs that say "A9 North". [Smile]

* who is paid peanuts.

[ 11. February 2017, 23:33: Message edited by: Piglet ]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Thanks, Piglet - I didn't realise St. Magnus' Cathedral actually belonged to the people. The set-up sounds rather like the French system!

The present sort of service (I assume it changes at least in detail from week to week, or season to season) has a distinctly Celtic/Iona feel to it, IMHO.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
I always love it when you start seeing signs that say "A9 North".

Unless you've started in Birmingham and are expecting to catch a ferry at Dover.
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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Thanks, Piglet - I didn't realise St. Magnus' Cathedral actually belonged to the people. The set-up sounds rather like the French system!

The present sort of service (I assume it changes at least in detail from week to week, or season to season) has a distinctly Celtic/Iona feel to it, IMHO.

IJ

A recent minister of St Magnus - Rev Ron Ferguson - had been the leader of the Iona Community, so I am sure he had something to do with it. It's hard to characterise Iona worship - it varies between the sublime and the excruciating, depending on who is leading the service. Hope we'll be in Kirkwall too in a few months to find out for ourselves.

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Pangolin Guerre
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First time that I've popped into the Scotland thread...

This Orcadian discussion has put me in a nostalgic - almost melancholic - frame of mind. On my first trip outside Canada, among my adventures was hiking Mainland, Orkney. The woman at whose b&b I was staying (crest of the ridge above Stromness, I think had a glass transom that read "Simpsons") had a hyper-intelligent border collie, Bobby, who followed me from Stromness to Skarra Brae and back. (Once I ceased telling him to Go Home, he was impeccably obedient.) I loved the landscape, the sea, the people. Even thirty years on, I look back on it as one of the happiest times of my life.

One of the things that struck me about St Magnus's was the patterned floor tiling, so much so that I took photos. I also recall being struck by the presence, on the altar, of a model of a Viking longship.

I think that I should go pour a dram of Highland Park just now.

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