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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dead horses: a free-for-all for vivisection
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romanesque
Shipmate
# 18785
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Posted
There's a qualitative difference in my experience. People ask How Very Dare You of a newbie expressing any opinion that differs from their own. I don't think newcomers should expect to perform archaeology on the forum to know whether they might step on individual toes when the word Christianity infers a certain perspective, however broad.
There's enough difference within Christian theology to entertain and dismay without a poster having to take on board, nay indulge someone with views that don't recognise the validity of even the most tentative definition of that term. Experience thus far suggests expressing such a sentiment denotes the equivalent of denying Atheists, Agnostics, Satanists, Klingons and Hindus the right to life, never mind an opinion, when it's apparent (to me certainly) that I'm suggesting something that would save heat and light by avoiding misunderstandings.
Walking on eggshells to avoid offending the habitually offended is too much effort just to post on a forum. Political correctness is a poor replacement for good manners.
Posts: 119 | Registered: May 2017
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
There's a qualitative difference in my experience. People ask How Very Dare You of a newbie expressing any opinion that differs from their own. I don't think newcomers should expect to perform archaeology on the forum to know whether they might step on individual toes when the word Christianity infers a certain perspective, however broad.
Oh come on now. You made assumptions about the views of people you were wanting to engage with on several threads because you couldn't be arsed to flick back a few pages to find out what they'd actually written. The problem here isn't with anyone except you.
It is nothing about your opinion, it is about your clumsy way of expressing it.
quote:
There's enough difference within Christian theology to entertain and dismay without a poster having to take on board, nay indulge someone with views that don't recognise the validity of even the most tentative definition of that term. Experience thus far suggests expressing such a sentiment denotes the equivalent of denying Atheists, Agnostics, Satanists, Klingons and Hindus the right to life, never mind an opinion, when it's apparent (to me certainly) that I'm suggesting something that would save heat and light by avoiding misunderstandings.
You seem to think This Is A Christian Website. Wrong.
quote:
Walking on eggshells to avoid offending the habitually offended is too much effort just to post on a forum. Political correctness is a poor replacement for good manners.
No.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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romanesque
Shipmate
# 18785
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Posted
quote:
You seem to think This Is A Christian Website. Wrong.
Yes, that was a howler on my part. All the trappings suggest it's predicated on the possibility of Christianity as a working hypothesis, so I'm forgiving myself. I'm undecided as yet whether the site was once a broadly Christian one but has been colonised by siren voices that would rather it wasn't, is liberal to a degree that includes Alain de Botton's Atheist Church as fully on message with scripture, or the Christian details are a kind of running joke on a secular website.
Posts: 119 | Registered: May 2017
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
I'm undecided as yet whether the site was once a broadly Christian one but has been colonised by siren voices that would rather it wasn't, is liberal to a degree that includes Alain de Botton's Atheist Church as fully on message with scripture, or the Christian details are a kind of running joke on a secular website.
The fact that this site is called "Ship of Fools, the magazine of Christian unrest" should tell you that it was never intended to be a broadly Christian website. The introductions at the top of each board should also make that clear.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
... I don't think newcomers should expect to perform archaeology on the forum to know whether they might step on individual toes ...
Time spent listening / reading isn't archaeology, it's basic good manners when introducing oneself to any group or community.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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romanesque
Shipmate
# 18785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
... I don't think newcomers should expect to perform archaeology on the forum to know whether they might step on individual toes ...
Time spent listening / reading isn't archaeology, it's basic good manners when introducing oneself to any group or community.
True of a gentleman's club, not necessarily true of an internet site. Will I be blackballed, jump ship or settle into a comfortably worn chair and pass the port?
Posts: 119 | Registered: May 2017
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
True of a gentleman's club, not necessarily true of an internet site. Will I be blackballed, jump ship or settle into a comfortably worn chair and pass the port?
I wouldn't support you getting planked (not my call anyway), but if you continue in the way you've started, you'll likely find the experience one that is unfulfilling because the community here refuses to conform to your expectations of them.
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arse
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
... I don't think newcomers should expect to perform archaeology on the forum to know whether they might step on individual toes ...
Time spent listening / reading isn't archaeology, it's basic good manners when introducing oneself to any group or community.
True of a gentleman's club, not necessarily true of an internet site.
Why should an internet site be any different to any other group of humans i.e. have group norms?
When joining any new group it's a good idea to figure out what those norms are - even if you eventually want to challenge them.
The reaction you've gotten, or feel you've gotten, has less to do with you having expressed views that are beyond the pale here, and more to do with misreading the room.
Take a breath. Lurk for a while. Dive back in.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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romanesque
Shipmate
# 18785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
True of a gentleman's club, not necessarily true of an internet site. Will I be blackballed, jump ship or settle into a comfortably worn chair and pass the port?
I wouldn't support you getting planked (not my call anyway), but if you continue in the way you've started, you'll likely find the experience one that is unfulfilling because the community here refuses to conform to your expectations of them.
As I've said nothing that is racist, sexist and only used bad language when it became manifestly clear it was the norm, even for admin, I see no reason why holding an opinion should see me banned. If the site is comprised of delicate sensibilities who require submission to a pecking order, they won't need an excuse to give me the boot. My intention isn't to offend, but that's based on outside world definitions of the term, and this site may have a different ethos. No one as yet is letting on what the agenda is, never mind the subtext, so I assume it's centred around an acceptance of if not subscription to, Christianity. If it's actually an aggressively secular site for recovering religionists, that will no doubt become apparent.
Posts: 119 | Registered: May 2017
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
As we've said, it isn't the opinion but the way you express yourself.
It helps to reply to what people say not what they don't.
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arse
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romanesque
Shipmate
# 18785
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Posted
I'm not sure who "we" are, but is there anywhere else we can take this discussion, as it's departing from forum news and announcements and into forum philosophy and personal "attitudes"?
Posts: 119 | Registered: May 2017
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I suggest you have a look here.
Particularly guideline 2. It's a matter for the Styx Hosts of course, but maybe you hadn't looked at the present Styx guidelines?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
I'm not sure who "we" are, but is there anywhere else we can take this discussion, as it's departing from forum news and announcements and into forum philosophy and personal "attitudes"?
I do hope you're going to hang around for another 17 posts.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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romanesque
Shipmate
# 18785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I suggest you have a look here.
Particularly guideline 2. It's a matter for the Styx Hosts of course, but maybe you hadn't looked at the present Styx guidelines?
Thanks for the heads up, I had looked at the 10 commandments early on and at face value they're entirely sensible. Wielded partially, they're a license to kill but that's true of any code of behaviour in the wrong hands. Until someone proves otherwise I'm happy to trust the rules are implemented with good will and a sense of humour.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
Why should an internet site be any different to any other group of humans i.e. have group norms?
It shouldn't.
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
If the site is comprised of delicate sensibilities who require submission to a pecking order, they won't need an excuse to give me the boot.
There is no "pecking order" beyond the running of the site. Owners, Admins and hosts. The rest of us are all the same level.
quote:
My intention isn't to offend, but that's based on outside world definitions of the term, and this site may have a different ethos.
This site has the same definition of offend that anywhere else has. SOF permissions to offend might be different to where you have been previously.
quote:
No one as yet is letting on what the agenda is, never mind the subtext, so I assume it's centred around an acceptance of if not subscription to, Christianity. If it's actually an aggressively secular site for recovering religionists, that will no doubt become apparent.
I could be wrong, but I see a pattern of what could be interpreted as provocative phrasing. Such as this.
Reads all very "wink, wink, nudge, nudge".
[ 09. June 2017, 15:29: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
someone who said to gay people in my workplace the kind of things that get posted on this board to gay shipmates would get disciplined by HR and sacked if they kept it up. Yet I'm meant to tell gay people off for getting personally irate with them!
The Ship is a unique and special place.
Most real-life discussions are with friends or colleagues, where not offending anybody is far more important than being philosophically or theologically right.
Some of us have been coming here a long time, for the opportunity to engage with political / religious/ philosophical issues in a certain spirit of heroic seriousness (that is found in Chesterton, for example).
The hosts in general do a really good job of refereeing the match, stepping in when in the heat of the moment people are tempted to play the man and not the ball.
Seems to me that's the line that you're meant to draw.
And that does mean that those who want to blur that line - who so identify with a cause that they take contrary views as personal affront - need to be reminded of the rules more often.
I'd hate to see the Ship renege on its position of open debate - all views welcome if you're prepared to argue for them - and capituate to the spirit of the age.
Is there perhaps a need to rotate the hosts between the Dead Horse board and the others, so that you guys get a break from the small number of never-ending topics that are discovered anew by each new intake of Shipmates ?
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Romanesque, most, though not all, of the posters here are Christians of some variety, but they are very varied in their opinions and theology. It seems to me that you had expected most of the posters to more-or-less share your view of Christianity, hence your confusion. Read around the various threads a bit, and you'll get more of a sense of the flavor of this place.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Is there perhaps a need to rotate the hosts between the Dead Horse board and the others, so that you guys get a break from the small number of never-ending topics that are discovered anew by each new intake of Shipmates ?
If I couldn't take a joke, I shouldn't have joined!
Seriously. not on current posting volumes. From time to time, we get these discussions about the format and scope of DH, and from time to time, often with relatively new members, we get these kinds of misunderstandings about how Hosting and Admin work here (and over ITTWACWS!). But these tend to be unusual patches of busyness.
DH is not in general all that fiery, requiring a lot of Host intervention. And skimming for 10C violations is not onerous despite the narrow range of topics.
Louise has been doing this for the longest; I'm a relative newbie (2 or 3 years I think), as is John Holding. Three Hosts for current volumes is pretty generous, helps us to cope with any risks of boredom or impatience. There is a bit of the "same old same old", but not as much as you might suppose.
Mind you, if any of our existing Hosts wanted to offer any of us "duty of care" holidays, I doubt whether any of us would say no!
[ 10. June 2017, 08:02: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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romanesque
Shipmate
# 18785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Romanesque, most, though not all, of the posters here are Christians of some variety, but they are very varied in their opinions and theology. It seems to me that you had expected most of the posters to more-or-less share your view of Christianity, hence your confusion. Read around the various threads a bit, and you'll get more of a sense of the flavor of this place.
You are mistaken in your view Nicolemr. While I subscribe to a metaphysical world view based on a broad reading of philosophy, religion and life experience, I'm absolutely not here to preach it brother sister. I am interested in unpicking the strands of beliefs generally, including my own and seeing how many stay intact.
I've read the Mystery Worshipper column for a while and thoroughly enjoyed it. Unless it's framed in impenetrably ironic parentheses that eluded me, it seems to take pleasure in Christian worship at least sentimentally, and I assumed the forum reflected a similar mind set. So it's as a turn up to be told the forum does not take Christianity as any kind of reference point, even as a negative. There's an implicit good natured humour in Mystery Worshipper that doesn't come across in the forum, which seem to default to an adversarial mode that borders on a war footing. Whether this is because I haven't put sufficient sugar on my offerings to please, or vinegar is the only spice internet forums apply nowadays, I can't tell. Whether this is all-about-me as people are suggesting and belongs elsewhere, or is a forum issue for The Styx I don't know, but it seems uncomfortably close to a personal spat cluttering up the workings of the board.
Posts: 119 | Registered: May 2017
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
romanesque - Mystery Worship reports are discussed in Ecclesiantics and the whole tone of that board is a wry humour about church and church worship.
Different boards have different flavours. Purgatory and Dead Horses tend to be for intelligent debate without many assumptions made, and an expectation that arguments can be backed up. I often read on my phone while commuting and will not click on arguments made by links to long YouTube clips, and those links break up the discussion. It's better that the protagonists can summarise the argument in their own words. Also on a long thread you may find that much has already been discussed in the previous pages. In Dead Horses, those of us who have been posting on that thread for the last five years may well not be want to engage, again, with an strand of the debate that was discussed four years ago.
There are a number of regular debaters in Purgatory and Dead Horses who are not Christian. There was an influx of atheists when the Dawkins boards folded, and some of those people are still involved. And then there are the people who came here to discuss their doubts / feelings about the Christian faith they were experiencing. When I joined the Ship, I read that many doubters either ended up no longer Christian or Orthodox, and there is a degree of truth in that.
If you want frivolous, try the Circus or Heaven, but don't expect it to be all Christian, because it won't be. Particularly if you expect a certain flavour of Christianity.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanesque:
There's an implicit good natured humour in Mystery Worshipper that doesn't come across in the forum, which seem to default to an adversarial mode that borders on a war footing.
I think this is more the case then it used to be, maybe reflecting the political polarisation of US society, spreading to the internet at large, between progressives and conservatives.
What this thread is about seems to be whether the Ship can good-humouredly accommodate the spectrum of views on homosexuality, or whether it will in effect come down on the progressive side by deeming any contrary opinion to violate the rules of civilised discourse between individuals.
If we allow Thunderbunk's approach to apply to all issues - "I identify as a Methodist so any negative view of Methodism is something I'm entitled to take as a personal attack to which I want to be allowed to respond with personal abuse" - then it's hard to see how the Ship could continue.
No-one's suggesting that this should apply to all issues. Yet. But it would set a precedent...
Progressivism is too big a topic to tackle here. But part of it involves the idea of social change as a ratchet, that people have some sort of moral duty to keep up with.
Some of us reject this doctrine.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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romanesque
Shipmate
# 18785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
romanesque - Mystery Worship reports are discussed in Ecclesiantics and the whole tone of that board is a wry humour about church and church worship.
Different boards have different flavours. Purgatory and Dead Horses tend to be for intelligent debate without many assumptions made, and an expectation that arguments can be backed up. I often read on my phone while commuting and will not click on arguments made by links to long YouTube clips, and those links break up the discussion. It's better that the protagonists can summarise the argument in their own words. Also on a long thread you may find that much has already been discussed in the previous pages. In Dead Horses, those of us who have been posting on that thread for the last five years may well not be want to engage, again, with an strand of the debate that was discussed four years ago.
There are a number of regular debaters in Purgatory and Dead Horses who are not Christian. There was an influx of atheists when the Dawkins boards folded, and some of those people are still involved. And then there are the people who came here to discuss their doubts / feelings about the Christian faith they were experiencing. When I joined the Ship, I read that many doubters either ended up no longer Christian or Orthodox, and there is a degree of truth in that.
If you want frivolous, try the Circus or Heaven, but don't expect it to be all Christian, because it won't be. Particularly if you expect a certain flavour of Christianity.
Thanks for the reply, particularly the detail about the influx of atheists and the role of SoF in confirming doubt. Also the resistance to links, all of which I'll bear in mind.
Taking replies in the round, it seems I'm being accused of preaching and frivolity. Perhaps it's because I've never seen religious belief as an impermeable and unqualified set of rules to which unquestioning assent has to be offered - and I view science in the same way incidentally - but a doubt filled negotiation with a numinous that's unavoidable. Of course that alone may rub people up the wrong way something rotten, some because I'm a wishy-washy liberal, others because I'm an idolater, and quite a few for having the cheek to suggest the numinous is even a concept, never mind a fact. I don't mind taking flak from multiple positions at once, but I do deny that I'm deliberately provoking it.
Posts: 119 | Registered: May 2017
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I think you're just getting to know this place, its ethos, its customs and its various people. Speaking as someone who has been here for a dozen years, and remembering back, that can be pretty confusing. I can remember getting shot at a few times (all within the rules) for ways in which I expressed myself that had got, all unknowing by me, under people's skins. Well, you live and learn.
After the first few cuts, I did wonder if I should stay. But I got this intuitive feeling that membership here was going to be good for me and I might be able to do a bit of good myself. That's proved to be right. I'm more aware of variations in belief, and why they exist, I've become better at engaging with folks whose views are markedly different to my own. And I feel warm about this cybercommunity and grateful for the experiences of being here.
I suppose in the end, that's what it gets around to. Always a personal choice. All the best with yours. I hope you feel able to stay and see how you get on.
[ 11. June 2017, 10:19: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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romanesque
Shipmate
# 18785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I think this is more the case then it used to be, maybe reflecting the political polarisation of US society, spreading to the internet at large, between progressives and conservatives.
Absolutely, and there's a conceptual and practical problem of religious language struggling to transcend a political lexicon. For those who see everything through the prism of politics, everything is indeed political, but I would seriously argue against religion, especially Christianity succumbing to the same impulse. I don't recognise anything in scripture that remotely points to a party political reading of Jesus, yet almost all traditions, not least my own, explain Christianity in terms of liberal, conservative, progressive, traditional and similar polemics.
It's impossible to discuss the transcendent when the terms of reference are anchored in the language of the tribal.
Posts: 119 | Registered: May 2017
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
What this thread is about seems to be whether the Ship can good-humouredly accommodate the spectrum of views on homosexuality, or whether it will in effect come down on the progressive side by deeming any contrary opinion to violate the rules of civilised discourse between individuals.
If we allow Thunderbunk's approach to apply to all issues - "I identify as a Methodist so any negative view of Methodism is something I'm entitled to take as a personal attack to which I want to be allowed to respond with personal abuse" - then it's hard to see how the Ship could continue.
You are suggesting that homosexuality is equivalent to churchmanship. If however we believe that homosexuality is an unchangeable part of someone, like race, then Thunderbunk's argument reads:
I identify as black so any negative view of blacks I am entitled to take as racism to which I think should be regarded as an offence against Ship rules
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
What I have always wondered is given that homosexuality is a Dead Horse issue, does that prevent people starting related positive threads? Eg. a 'How are you celebrating Pride Week' thread in Heaven or 'Support for a Christian who is coming out' thread in All Saints. I'm heterosexual but supportive of gay and trans rights and gay marriage and one of my brothers is gay. Sometimes I've wanted to discuss something relevant to gay rights or issues on the ship, but didn't feel comfortable posting in Dead Horses. It's hard to explain my discomfort, but it just seems that some discussions would be better off in All Saints or Heaven where LGBT etc. posters and their supporters can't be attacked for their 'unbiblical' views while trying to have a heavenly conversation or seek support.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
That's a good question.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
From memory, we used to have Gay Pride event threads in All Saints which were akin to local Shipmeets. Not sure how clear the wording makes it, but the DH corral is essentially there for serious discussions. It's not intended as a universal corral.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
The DH rules say "Dead Horses is really an extension of Purgatory"...
Plus, threads about "who's doing X for Pride", and so on aren't really discussions in the way that that is meant on the boards. I see no problem with the kinds of threads that Mili suggested - none of them is a "discussion", and none of them invites "discussion".
For those shipmates who are of the opinion that being gay and being Christian aren't compatible, the proper response to a "help coming out" thread in All Saints is to ignore it.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Thanks for the clarification. I've been on the Ship a long time, but did not know these distinctions, so it's good to know and for anyone else that might have been unsure as well.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I'd hate to see the Ship renege on its position of open debate - all views welcome if you're prepared to argue for them
Much though I sympathise with the OP of this thread, I have to say - in my personal capacity as just another member of this board - that I agree with this comment.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I'd hate to see the Ship renege on its position of open debate - all views welcome if you're prepared to argue for them
Much though I sympathise with the OP of this thread, I have to say - in my personal capacity as just another member of this board - that I agree with this comment.
The topics are. What is under discussion is the how, not the if.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
I'm just asking for a truly level playing field. Look at the thread now if you're still wondering why I regard apparently theological arguments as being very thinly veiled personal attacks from which the gossamer covering needs to be torn.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
It is not a level playing field. It isn't that I do not understand and share your frustrations. Biblical justification for anti-homosexuality is mind-numbingly hypocritical, irrational, illogical and anti-Jesus.
I was not certain if you were referring to this thread, on which postings have degenerated, or one in DH. So I looked down there. OMG. OMFG.
I cannot reply to that in DH so a Hell call is in order.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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