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Source: (consider it) Thread: Unpopular opinion
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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My unpopular opinion is that the Unpopular Opinion thread in Heaven is not a discussion thread about the Welsh language.

--------------------
Fearfully and wonderfully mad
Love the dinner, hate the din.
ن
blog

Posts: 8753 | From: Somewhere else | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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"In my father's house there are many tangents."?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17593 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I don't like Christmas.

*ducks*

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19988 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't like Christmas.

*ducks*

Wrong thread

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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No, I agree. Christmas is a loathsome holiday, like some kind of December death march.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5625 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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If you have an unpopular opinion then post it on the thread in Heaven.

If you have an opinion on discussing the Welsh language, unpopular or otherwise, on that thread then carry on.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32086 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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Jerry Garcia famously said of the Grateful Dead,

quote:
We're like licorice. Not everyone likes licorice, but the people who like licorice really like licorice.
Having witnessed (I seem to remember) more than one thread in my time go down the Welsh language rabbit hole and never emerge again, I have come to conclude that talking about Welsh is also like licorice. Many, if not most, shipmates have nothing to add, but once it goes that direction, we can expect it to stay there for a while.

Maybe an experiment to see if a dedicated Welsh language heaven thread would quickly overtake some others in page length, or if discussion only flourishes when the topic is unexpected, is in order?

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3131 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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Not allowed under Ship language rules.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17593 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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I suppose saying a thread for discussion of Welsh would be more precise.

[ 01. November 2017, 19:38: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]

--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3131 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Christmas is a loathsome holiday.

Well, it's what we've turned Christmas (oops, I mean "the Holidays") into that's loathsome. Christmas itself is holy and mystical.

But that's true of so many holidays -- certainly of Easter and perhaps even Thanksgiving. I think the one I loathe the most is St. Valentine's Day.

[ 01. November 2017, 19:39: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10269 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I suppose saying a thread for discussion of Welsh would be more precise.

I think a dedicated thread would become limiting if any actual Welsh posted had to be accompanied by a translation, which would be required under Ship language rules.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17593 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I suppose saying a thread for discussion of Welsh would be more precise.

I think a dedicated thread would become limiting if any actual Welsh posted had to be accompanied by a translation, which would be required under Ship language rules.
You all have gotten on just fine within the rules on the tangent on the Unpopular Opinion thread, right?

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But if there is enough interest in the topic at hand to sidetrack one thread, all I'm saying is that there's an easy solution...

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3131 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think a dedicated thread would become limiting if any actual Welsh posted had to be accompanied by a translation, which would be required under Ship language rules.

I don't know, let's try it.

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arse

Posts: 10136 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
passer

Indigo
# 13329

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Not allowed under Ship language rules.

A rule which benefits nobody and is applied seemingly arbitrarily.
Posts: 1271 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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Game to give it a go.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17593 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Not allowed under Ship language rules.

A rule which benefits nobody
I’d like an explanation on the reasoning here. Because it seems the opposite to me.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
quote:
Not allowed under Ship language rules.
A rule which benefits nobody and is applied seemingly arbitrarily.
Yes: please expound your thinking here.
Posts: 15132 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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The thread had been taken over by the tangent to the extent that everything else was ignored. Iy is back on track now.

Thank you.

To the Welsh speakers, have you considered an eighth day board where the Welsh does not have to be translated every time?

--------------------
Fearfully and wonderfully mad
Love the dinner, hate the din.
ن
blog

Posts: 8753 | From: Somewhere else | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
The thread had been taken over by the tangent . . . It is back on track now.

If that's the case . . . there is no justifiable reason why people should be enamored of "social media" (Facebook, Twitter, etc.).

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10269 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:

To the Welsh speakers, have you considered an eighth day board where the Welsh does not have to be translated every time?

I could be wrong, but unless it is a private board and not visible, it'd still have to be translated.

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arse

Posts: 10136 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
passer

Indigo
# 13329

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
quote:
Not allowed under Ship language rules.
A rule which benefits nobody and is applied seemingly arbitrarily.
Yes: please expound your thinking here.
Well if I recall correctly (and my memory weakens as I age) the rule was introduced in response to someone, or maybe more than one, writing in Foreign in some thread (possibly in Keryg??) and someone else complaining about it on the grounds that sneaky types might be using this devious stratagem to slyly take the piss out of others, or to deliberately exclude them from meaningful participation. This led, after some lively exchanges of views either here or in Hell, to the imposition of the English-only rule on the grounds that it was unreasonable to expect participants in or casual browsers of threads to have to resort to Google Translate (other translators are available) in order to respond or react, and that this inhibited the free-flowing nature of a discussion forum. So far, so good.

Whetever issue gave rise to this was dealt with by the ptb and blew over in due course. However the rule remained in place, and has been invoked on occasion to disrupt engagements by means of introducing distractions à la (see what I did there?) : Please sir/madam - he used Foreign and didn't provide a translation - he should have said "à la" means "in the style of". On some occasions this is ignored (rightly, imho) and on some occasions it has been used as a device whereby a Host chastises one of the participants. Hence arbitrary. Use of or appeal to the rule to cavil at someone's opinion is rather childish, in my view.

When Karl mentioned the rule, it was possibly very much tongue-in-cheek, with reference to the possibility of a foreign-language thread, which I don't believe the rule is intended to address. However, I took the opportunity to express my opinion as I don't believe the rule as it is now used benefits anyone.

This is not a big deal, and may well be an Unpopular Opinion.

Amen (so be it).

Posts: 1271 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Very much disagree. The public boards are public, and meant to be open to all. It seems to me that having chunks of untranslated text in Foreign creates a de facto underclass. Further, istm that this rule is of a piece with the rule saying scripture references are insufficient, and text of the bible should be included in the post. Another more informal custom is defining obscure technical terms. Imagine having a three-person pub convo in which two spoke in Foreign, and when the third asked what they're saying, they tell him to look it up on his cell phone. Forcing a subset of the interlocutors to constantly jump back and forth between the conversation and reference works is unreasonable and rude.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63074 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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Oh, dear. Back to the tangent, are we? Wake Miss Amanda when it goes away, will you, that's a dear.

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10269 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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What mt said. In addition, translation isn’t sufficient for any real conversation anyway. Few languages are completely straightforward in their usage. Meaning anstraight translation doesn’t always give a proper meaning. We have enough problems in the language we share.


quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Oh, dear. Back to the tangent, are we? Wake Miss Amanda when it goes away, will you, that's a dear.

Perhaps someone needs new specs? Of some cleaning agent? Because your contributions to this thread so far have not exactly been on point.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
passer

Indigo
# 13329

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Very much disagree. The public boards are public, and meant to be open to all. It seems to me that having chunks of untranslated text in Foreign creates a de facto underclass. Further, istm that this rule is of a piece with the rule saying scripture references are insufficient, and text of the bible should be included in the post. Another more informal custom is defining obscure technical terms. Imagine having a three-person pub convo in which two spoke in Foreign, and when the third asked what they're saying, they tell him to look it up on his cell phone. Forcing a subset of the interlocutors to constantly jump back and forth between the conversation and reference works is unreasonable and rude.

Yes, including chunks of untranslated text in Foreign is indeed against the spirit of the boards, I have no argument with that. It's the weaselly nit-picking way that some do the other thing I mentioned, as a distraction when they are unsure of how they are doing in a discussion, and the patchy response which that attracts from the ptb which I don't really like. Better no rule to appeal to than one which can be manipulated. After all, the Hosts read all posts anyway, and are capable of deciding when something is out of order or unclear.

Anyway, I'll bite, so:

Mods - mousethief said "de facto" and I'm not sure what it means. I'm being oppressed.

Posts: 1271 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:

To the Welsh speakers, have you considered an eighth day board where the Welsh does not have to be translated every time?

I could be wrong, but unless it is a private board and not visible, it'd still have to be translated.
Yes. The other issue is that Hosts are obliged (poor sods) to read the dribblings that the deck-scrubbers post, so you'd need a host fluent in the language of the board, were it public. Not I, for I am far from fluent. Very, very far.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17593 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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One commandment reads "don't be a jerk" which is a reflection the great Jesusly commandment which in in the original is "don't be a dick", though in unauthorized KJV is translated "arsehole". English being a flexible language which takes in some stray and useful phrases from other languages, i.e., making them de factoEnglish, etc. The hosts no doubt draw some lines with rulers, very straight, and some other lines might be curvy or jagged to reflect the adoption of words into English.
Posts: 11031 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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It is bad enough that y'all speak in Christian so often.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Oh, dear. Back to the tangent, are we? Wake Miss Amanda when it goes away, will you, that's a dear.

The "Unpopular Opinion" thread in Heaven is back on track. But here in The Styx, they're still debating the language issue.

(And I agree with you about "social" media!)

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

Posts: 9432 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
Well if I recall correctly (and my memory weakens as I age) the rule was introduced in response to someone, or maybe more than one, writing in Foreign in some thread (possibly in Keryg??) and someone else complaining about it on the grounds that sneaky types might be using this devious stratagem to slyly take the piss out of others, or to deliberately exclude them from meaningful participation.

Well, unless you were a lurker on the Neoworks boards (ie: here before 2001) then you won't remember the early incarnations of the guideline. But, it was nothing to do with concern about sly piss taking (though there have been occasions when individuals have been warned about hiding possible insults in obscure language that has never generated a "don't be obscure because you might be insulting someone" rule that applies to everyone). It basically comes down to these being discussion boards, and for discussion to happen then a common language is highly desirable - and since the vast majority of people here speak some form of English as their first language that is the logical choice. If you want someone to respond to your posts, to engage in discussion, then it's pretty stupid to make what you say impossible for most people to understand. The first examples of unnecessary difficulty added to posts that I can recall was the use of txt abbreviations - saving a few seconds in typing and having lots of people go "huh?" wasn't very smart.

Of course there are lots of times when it's appropriate to use a technical term (often non-English derived), and if there are people reading the posts who don't understand that then it's OK for them to ask for an explanation (especially as some technical terms have multiple meanings). And we all use phrases and abbreviations in the expectation that they're in common usage, only to find they're not as commonly understood as we thought.

Of course, a thread about a foreign language will inevitably involve posting phrases in that language. And, any intelligent person will recognise that a translation is a very good idea if they want to communicate something meaningful.

Which is all very different from deliberately posting something that you know the majority of people will not understand. Which is just a dumb thing to do on a discussion board. There has never been that much enforcement of the guideline - a very few occasions of what appears to be deliberately jerkish obscurism called out, significantly more occasions when someone has realised that a phrase used by someone may not be readily understood.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32086 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
passer

Indigo
# 13329

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Well, unless you were a lurker on the Neoworks boards (ie: here before 2001) then you won't remember the early incarnations of the guideline.

Ah. I only go back to about 2006, so probably what I recall is some incident which led to a reaffirmation of the rule and my first awareness of it.
Posts: 1271 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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"De facto" in written English dates to 1610. Only a de facto di khed would say it's not part of our language.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63074 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Perhaps someone needs new specs . . . because your contributions to this thread so far have not exactly been on point.

Well, yes, Miss Amanda **does** need new glasses, as a matter of fact. She was at the optometrist yesterday. She understands the purpose of this thread now, and appreciates being nudged so gently and charitably toward that understanding. She'll leave you all to your devices now, having no interest herself in the Welsh language.

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10269 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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And subpoena, usually as that one word, is by now English and fairly generally understood. But:

There was a law student called Rex
Had a very small organ of sex.
When charged with exposure
Replied with composure
De minimis non curat lex*.

may well not be. Even less common English words are obviously not understood by many.

*The law does not care about trifles

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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Gee D! I remember that from my law student days in the 70s!

M.

Posts: 2251 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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Mine were the 60s, but I got this (and quite a few more far less printable) from a book bought in the 70s

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged


 
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