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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Do I have a Divisional Officer to hear my complaint?
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Sigh. We all can't be Alan Cresswell. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Lyda Rose, thank you for my new (and possibly last ever) sig!
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
You're all Fools.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Why is Alan Cresswell always right? (The title of a plaintive, tongue in cheek 'moaning' Hell thread from a decade ago. Very funny thread).
Because he is! Get over it.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
A thread that's fortuitously vanished. Unless someone can find it in Oblivion ... if someone can find anything in Oblivion.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It isn't in Limbo and predates the big Oblivion Purge, so it is gone for good. Only the memory remains ..
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Purgatory guideline 6 states nothing about length. This seems a case of an arbitrary imposition of this guideline. Styx rarely functions well because the powers that be rarely acknowledge that they have made a mistake. Culture evolves.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Purgatory guideline 6 states nothing about length. This seems a case of an arbitrary imposition of this guideline. Styx rarely functions well because the powers that be rarely acknowledge that they have made a mistake. Culture evolves.
None of the Commandments mentions length explicitly, but verbosity and repetition can easily contravene Commandments 1, 2, 5, 6 and 9 in Spirit.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Purgatory guideline 6 states nothing about length. This seems a case of an arbitrary imposition of this guideline.
Referral to admins in this case followed multiple host posts and extensive explanations and suggestions of how to adapt to board culture, specifically including recommendations on post length, so it was anything but arbitrary. quote:
Styx rarely functions well because the powers that be rarely acknowledge that they have made a mistake.
You only have to scroll up this thread to see that a willingness to reverse an initial thread closure was enacted in a matter of minutes. The other party promptly squandered that gesture of good faith. quote:
Culture evolves.
Yes. Evidence.
[ETA also, the Styx doesn't work when people try to use it as a proxy theatre to carry on an argument from another board, as was done in this case]
[ 20. February 2018, 13:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
The two posts after mine are illustrative of my point.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
How? I've provided a rebuttal backed by evidence. Simply rejecting it without arguing your case is not compelling.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Yes, and there was a "need" to suspend someone during that discussion.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
The two posts after mine are illustrative of my point.
If your point is that SOF admin and hosts are capricious in their rulings, you picked the wrong hill to charge up.
RdrEmCofE was warned and then went against that warning almost immediately.
You might wish to challenge the grounds for the initial warning, but his suspension was justified in the warning itself.
There was an explicit "If you do X, Y will happen." He did X, so Y are you complaining?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Yes, and there was a "need" to suspend someone during that discussion.
The suspension was not the result of that discussion. It followed on from behaviour on another thread, following this warning, which could not be clearer.
(Also, "yes" is not an intelligible answer to a "how" question).
[ 20. February 2018, 15:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Thanks for your feedback on what is or is not an intelligible answer. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) My thoughts are that the crew of the ship have little tolerance in general for dissent. Glad to see they are considering changing the guidelines for DH. This hardly demonstrates a general willingness to change. Their default mode tends to be "the rules forbid it," IMHO. YMMV.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I don't really have a horse in this race, but, FWIW, I think we do well to remember that The Ship is not a democracy....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
My thoughts are that the crew of the ship have little tolerance in general for dissent.
It depends what you mean by dissent. The 10 commandments and associated guidelines have stood the test of time as creating a constructive framework for sensible discussion among people of wildly varying opinions. Take away the 10 commandments and you have something like a YouTube comment thread.
If "dissent" means "persistently flout hostly advice and ignore hostly warnings" then yes, a suspension or banning is on the cards.
We have to weigh the value of disruptive voices against the need to preserve the integrity of the community. One way of doing that is to nurture conversations - which posts over 1500 words long don't.
In my experience, suspensions are always a next-to-last resort and not after some agonising, and I can't recall anyone being banned here other than for the likes of blatant sockpuppetry, being a bot, etc. since I began as a host, several years ago now.
Finally, as you appear to acknowledge, this is and always has been a benevolent dictatorship. That's what you signed up to.
If you knows of a better 'ole...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I don't believe I acknowledged that it was benevolent.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It's benevolent until it isn't. RdrEmCofE had a lot of warnings and forbearance before RooK finally lowered the boom.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
I thought it was a plank?
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I don't know! I think "planking" is reserved for indefinite suspension or outright banning.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I thought the boom was the pole at the bottom of a sail, which sweeps across the deck when the ship changes direction, such as when tacking against the wind. It is named after the noise it makes when it hits you on the head.
[Edit bicoss mi speelling sucs.]
[ 22. February 2018, 12:00: Message edited by: balaam ]
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It does have nautical origins, but as a metaphor it means take decisive punitive action.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just so - as in being hit across the head...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
When you're not looking!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
My thoughts are that the crew of the ship have little tolerance in general for dissent.
If that was true you'd have been banned years ago.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
My thoughts are that the crew of the ship have little tolerance in general for dissent.
What an odd thing to say.
There is no other forum which requires less conformity than the Ship! If you find one, send me a link. I remain here because I can’t conform - and have never felt anything but accepted.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
A plethora of FB groups that I belong to require much less conformity, Boogie
Was that threat, Marvin?
[ 22. February 2018, 15:22: Message edited by: Caissa ]
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
What do you mean by "less conformity"?
If there's something you think we could do better, then let us know more specifics.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
A plethora of FB groups that I belong to require much less conformity, Boogie
Was that threat, Marvin?
I wasn't on Facebook for years and recently joined, mostly to talk about local history and vegetable growing.
It is true, there are less rules about discussion in those Facebook groups than here, if that is what you mean about "less conformity".
But in all my long years here - even though I've been frequently wrong, bad tempered and crap at putting across ideas in a logical way - nobody has ever suggested that my qualifications are fake or that I was some kind of government stooge. Nobody has ever suggested to me that I shouldn't be part of this forum because I had an unpopular idea.
I was a week on Facebook when both of those things happened to me. And, let me repeat, the groups I belong to are about vegetable gardening and local history.
This forum requires conformity: conformity to doing what you are told when you are told it. Facebook groups don't usually have that requirement, and that's the reason why this forum is the way it is and why Facebook usually is not.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
That was Boogie's phrase. You should ask her what she meant.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
The trouble with very long posts is that they do tend to look like a 'preach' rather than part of a conversation - particularly is there is a tone of "listen up everyone, I'm telling it how it is".
That, however, was not why RdrEmCofE was suspended. It was an obviously (to my eyes at least) unwise, boundary-testing post (which was not about the subject of the Styx thread on which it was posted) immediately after a hostly warning which said quote:
Knock off the personal insults, or anything that might be construed as such … there will be no more warnings.
(my emphasis)
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
That was Boogie's phrase. You should ask her what she meant.
She was paraphrasing your discontent. It is up to you to explain what you mean.
What do you mean by "little tolerance of dissent"? If you can't come up with specifics, you can't expect any changes.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Well for example, the person in question was being baited in that thread after rook called for no personal insults. Is Styx really a location for baiting?
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The Styx is not a place for personal insults. It should not require a host to point that out, that we do tend to warn people when they're encroaching a line is a mechanism that usually results in people backing off and engaging with others constructively. Is that really such a difficult concept?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Well for example, the person in question was being baited in that thread after rook called for no personal insults. Is Styx really a location for baiting?
It strikes me that RdrEmCofE was the one doing the baiting there.
[x-post]
[ 22. February 2018, 16:19: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I thought the boom was the pole at the bottom of a sail, which sweeps across the deck when the ship changes direction, such as when tacking against the wind. It is named after the noise it makes when it hits you on the head.
I shall assume you are being humorous and not bore you with the actual etymology of the term.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
RdrEmCofE was clearly not without sin and others were trying to push RdrEmCofE over the line. Much of the thread could have been avoided if there was more tolerance of RdrEmCofE behaviour in the Re-Baptism thread. YMMV. We differ on how we perceive the limits of tolerance for dissent on this site.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Tolerance of their behaviour was not aided by the fact that having been warned about preachy posts in Purgatory, within hours of the thread being closed on that basis, they promptly went and posted 745 words most of which appear to be a potted sermon in Kerygmania, with the introduction
quote:
One of the best sermons I have ever delivered was
I for one don't spend time and energy moderating on these boards to then watch people shit all over them.
[ 22. February 2018, 16:30: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Well for example, the person in question was being baited in that thread after rook called for no personal insults. Is Styx really a location for baiting?
It strikes me that RdrEmCofE was the one doing the baiting there.
[x-post]
Certainly it didn't look to me as though Boogie's two posts following Rook's warning were in any sense 'baiting', and IMO they were fair comment about what RdrEmCofE had posted on that same thread. FWIW (just about zilch actually) I think the post of mr cheesy's that was then quoted was also a personal attack (albeit from a closed thread on another board), but quoting it in that context was very hard not to construe as a personal attack on mr. cheesy.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I never said Boogie baited (try saying that 5 times quickly.) For the record, she was not the person i am thinking of. Read the thread closely and see which posts were egging him/her on.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Caissa
I don't see why you can't quote directly what you see as provocative, rather than encouraging BroJames (and the rest of us) to play hunt the thimble. (I read the thread on which the suspension occurred in the same way as BroJames.)
(There was indeed some provocation and mutual insulting on the Re-Baptism thread, but that 's a different matter. In any case, the Hosting in that thread named both parties.)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I never said Boogie baited (try saying that 5 times quickly.) For the record, she was not the person i am thinking of. Read the thread closely and see which posts were egging him/her on.
I have reread the thread and I have no idea which ones you are talking about. I do note, however, that RdrEmCofE's very first post on it was a personal insult veiled so thinly as to be blindingly obvious.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It occurs to me that saying people were deliberating baiting someone is an accusation of trolling. Of course, calling someone a troll is a personal attack. But, if you don't name names then you stay just within the line of C3. Though those being accused of trolling probably know who they are.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
So how would I appropriately inform one of the powers that be to whom I was referring?
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
So how would I appropriately inform one of the powers that be to whom I was referring?
I would suggest using clarity. Like specifically quoting the words you think are problematic and state why. If you are uncomfortable doing so in public, feel free to PM or email.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Was that threat, Marvin?
No, a statement of fact presented as evidence to disprove your claim.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
So how would I appropriately inform one of the powers that be to whom I was referring?
I would suggest using clarity. Like specifically quoting the words you think are problematic and state why. If you are uncomfortable doing so in public, feel free to PM or email.
You have grown so sensible and mature since the years when I used to send you chocolate body parts in the mail.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
You have grown so sensible and mature since the years when I used to send you chocolate body parts in the mail.
Oh, I'm still bribable with chocolate and cash. The majority of the Crew are honest folk who work to be objective. I balance them out.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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