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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bill Clinton and the Pope
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Simon
Editor
# 1
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Posted
Joke submitted by Callan:
Bill Clinton and the Pope die at the same time. Owing to an administrative mix-up, the Pope is sent to Hell and Clinton to heaven. It becomes quickly apparent that a mistake has been made, so St Peter gets on the phone to Lucifer and they agree to trade.
As Clinton and the Pope ascend and descend to their respective abodes they pass one another.
"No hard feelings, I trust," says Clinton.
"No hard feelings at all, my son," replies the Pope. "I'm so much looking forward to meeting the Blessed Virgin."
"I'm afraid you're a bit late for that," mutters Clinton as he continues his descent.
[ 11. July 2005, 09:00: Message edited by: Simon ]
Poll information
This poll contains 2 question(s). 109 user(s) have voted.
You can't view the results of this poll without voting.
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Eternal memory
Posts: 3787 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Extremely offensive.
Most likely as I consider Our Lady to be 'more honoured than the cherubim and more glorious than the seraphim'. Besmirching her name is not on for me.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alicďa
Shipmate
# 7668
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Posted
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness
Posts: 884 | From: Where the Art is. | Registered: Jun 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
"Our"?
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
It's more a joke about Bill Clinton than religion, isn't it? Saying that a) he should be in Hell and b) he'll bonk anything, lock up your daughters Bill's about...
Funny though. Very funny ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
"Our"?
Yes.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
"Our"?
Yes.
We do allow people to post more than one word at a time, in fact we prefer it.
Neil
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
Dosen't work for me, becuse I think Joseph as Mary's husband quite rightly 'got there first', probably a year or two, at the latest, after Jesus was born. In fact the joke is annoying in a way as it reminds me that there are many who belive Mary is still a Virgin, despite the Gospel reference to 'Jesus' mother and brothers'.
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
While this one would work even if it didn't specifically have JPII and Clinton, I like a lot with those two.
Both were examples of men with a genuine caring about people (especially as individuals) combined with sharp intellects and a solidly pragmatic political skills. (Obviously manifested in quite different ways and styles!) I can just picture them both politely accepting the flurry of apologies after the mistake was discovered, smiling at one another as they pass on celestial staircase, genuinely having no hard feelings.
And then that guilty smirk I imagine on Clinton's face, plus the implied scene in Heaven when the Pope gets there and finds out what happened... well, it leaves me with a big guilty smirk of my own.
(Does this make Mary's new title MoGfkatBVM - Mother of God formerly known as the Blessed Virgin Mary?)
[ 08. July 2005, 13:47: Message edited by: jlg ]
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I'm smiling - it is funnier because there could be two versions this year, one with John Paul (more appropriate - he mentioned Mary at every opportunity), the other with Benedict. I can picture John Paul elated, Benedict rather shy.
The implication that Bill Clinton, whose public manner always seemed very easygoing, was not at all bothered by being en route to hell, and that he'd bonk any woman in sight, is amusing. I did not find this joke hilarious, but it's mildly funny and not at all offensive.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Extremely offensive.
Most likely as I consider Our Lady to be 'more honoured than the cherubim and more glorious than the seraphim'. Besmirching her name is not on for me.
Coot suggested on another thread that people might find jokes offensive if they were making fun of the creeds. I looked through the jokes that had been posted and found that this held true for me. I think the same has happened for Ian, except that his 'offensiveness area' includes some matters of doctrine.
I did not find it offensive because it did not touch one of the central tenents of my faith. I don't think about Mary at all except at Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter. I would never think of her as being a virgin. I am quite happy with the virgin conception of Jesus, but I don't see any reason why Mary would remain a virgin.
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
I would never think of her as being a virgin. I am quite happy with the virgin conception of Jesus, but I don't see any reason why Mary would remain a virgin.
That's the paradox. Blessed Mary Ever Virgin and all that, once a virgin always a virgin. I thought this joke was tacky, it reduced her to the level of just an ordinary girl who could be wowed by a politician.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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babybear
Bear faced and cheeky with it
# 34
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Posted
Ah, I didn't get the joke then. Because I starting for a position where Mary was no longer a virgin it was pretty obvious that she couldn't have become a born-again virgin. Clinton was simply correcting the Pope's dodgy theology. It wasn't about Clinton seducing Mary.
I don't think either version was amusing or offensive.
Posts: 13287 | From: Cottage of the 3 Bears (and The Gremlin) | Registered: May 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
I think one's mileage varies depending on the esteem one holds the BVM in. I find the 'thought experiment' of the seduction of the BVM distasteful, but gave it a low score on offensiveness. (I save my 5s for in real life desecration)
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Another thought after visiting the Three Wise Men joke. What happens between Clinton and Mary is a bit dependent on your beliefs surrounding Mary. Eg. If you believe that she is Ever-Virgin, then for her to no longer be a virgin after Clinton has met her means that he has in some way sleazily seduced her or forced himself on her - which ups the offensiveness rating. But if you think that she has no commitment to chastity or virginity, then it is no biggie if she has succumbed to Mr Clinton's charms (and may have even been, in that reader's mind, a willing participant).
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by babybear:
Coot suggested on another thread that people might find jokes offensive if they were making fun of the creeds. I looked through the jokes that had been posted and found that this held true for me. I think the same has happened for Ian, except that his 'offensiveness area' includes some matters of doctrine.
I think that's spot on -- at least for me.
Add to this the fact that I've only recently began to seriously believe that Mary was ever-virgin and understand its significance, and perhaps that is why I found it so offensive. It is a doctrine I've only just begun to understand; that may have increased its offensiveness.
Ian.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QB] It's more a joke about Bill Clinton than religion, isn't it?
I agree with this assessment. the joke made me laugh, but not uproariously.
I'm not really invested much in the "perpetual virginity" of Mary, so perhaps that colored my response as well.
Those two things said, it's probably not a joke I would repeat.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I'm with JLG on this.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I laughed a lot, and rated it very funny, because Bill Clinton's inability to keep his dick in his pants is something that causes me huge annoyance and also a lot of amusement. I didn't even think of it as an insult to Mary till I read Ian's post. From that perspective I could see how it could be offensive to a Catholic who holds Mary in high esteem. I personally don't believe Mary was "ever virgin" but within the context of the joke I was sharing the Pope's assumption that she would be, and that Clinton would have been just as ready to do her as he was to do anything else in skirts ... so yeah, very funny and not at all offensive, until I thought about others' possible reactions.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Trudy made some points with which I agree.
Though this joke is not hilarious, I think it hinges entirely on one's assuming that the pope thinks of Mary as ever-virgin - because the joke is really about Clinton's sexual adventures, not about theology. Were it a matter of Clinton's correcting faulty theology on the part of the pope, it would not be funny in the least - it would make no sense.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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adso
Shipmate
# 2895
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Posted
I've heard this one before (from a Welsh conductor in his 80s) but with Lloyd George instead of Clinton, and the punchline "Not any more she isn't, boyo!"
It was hilarious at the time but doesn't work so well in print. It needed the accents.
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os justi meditabitur sapientiam, et lingua eius loquetur judicium. lex dei eius in corde ipsius, et non supplantabuntur gressus eius. alleluia.
Posts: 688 | From: pays de galles | Registered: Jun 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
This whole thing about whether one truly believes in the eternal virginity of the Blessed Mother I think exposes something of what makes a joke offensive.
Not because of the particular beliefs, but rather because it illustrates (as do the paedophile jokes, in a slightly different way) the ability - or lack thereof - to separate the non-reality of the joke from the reality of one's personal beliefs.
What on earth does a joke which implies that Bill Clinton (or some other public philanderer) seduced the Virgin Mary have to do with whether or not she actually is eternally virgin? Either she is or she isn't, but a joke is surely not capable of changing that fact, is it?
What I'm seeing is that people find jokes offensive either out of reflex ("I'm W-type Christian and jokes about X, Y and Z are offensive because they attack my church's teachings") or because the joke hits at something they aren't sure about ("Is the Virgin Birth really a fact? Did she remain ever-virgin or did she and Joseph have marital relations? If she is ever-virgin in heaven, is she still subject to temptation? Does that mean I'll still be subject to temptation in heaven?").
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Midnight Scholar
Shipmate
# 9112
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Posted
I had a completely different reaction to this joke than anyone else who's posted, I think; I assumed that this was another dig at Clinton and his enconomy with the truth ('I...did...not..have... and so on) rather than a joke about Marian doctrine.
Years ago I quit the RC church because I could not and can not subscribe either to the doctrine of Mary's immaculate conception, nor to that of her perpetual virginity (and a couple other things, not relevant here); but even so it didn't occur to me that this was what the joke was about. To me it's a Clinton joke pure and simple, suggesting that he'll lie about anything, on earth or in heaven; and that if he can wind up the Pope in the process, so much the better.
Can almost hear him down there in the depths, attempting to dine out on it: 'And you know, the old guy actually believed me....'
Not offensive; but otoh no funnier than the average run of Clinton jokes.
mn
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Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth.
Deal with it.
Posts: 129 | From: out there | Registered: Feb 2005
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Glimmer
Ship's Lantern
# 4540
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Posted
Yes, I think it's a joke about Clinton, requiring a suspension of belief about the BVM and an acceptance of a Clinton charicature. So therefore, the humour is diminished by the amount of effort required to 'get it'. A good, in-character punchline is essential to rescue it - like the aforementioned Lloyd George one.
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The original, unchanged 4540.
The Temple area, Ankh Morpork
Posts: 1749 | From: Ankh Morpork, Dorset | Registered: May 2003
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uvatar
Apprentice
# 9848
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Posted
I heard this one before, not with Bill clinton, but with Mark Dutroux, a psycho who abducted, raped and killed children and young women here in belgium.
that version makes more sense to me... I as european don't see why it would be funny with clinton I'm affraid...
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every man is evil, every man' s a liar, unashamed with a wicked tong singing in the black soul choir
Posts: 2 | From: belgium | Registered: Jul 2005
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iGeek.*
Resident alien
# 3207
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Posted
It was mildly funny for me and could have been funnier if Bill Clinton wasn't past his sell-by date.
I found it inoffensive but I'm guessing it's because I'm not Catholic.
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.sig on holiday
Posts: 702 | From: Hot-on-us, TX | Registered: Aug 2002
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