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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Mary Magdalene: Mrs Jesus or Apostle?
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Or even: quote:
Originally posted by madteawoman:
Interesting that even with all this conspiracy theory in TDVC about the naughty Catholic church being so mean to Mary, the only alternative she gets offered by Dan Brown is being a wife and mother! Where is Mary the apostle to the apostles? Supporter of the whole Jesus movement? And not a secret apostle either, that is right there in the NT. Nor was she a harlot, that was a much later development (and that was the RC Church, I believe) and far more to do with not having Mary as an apostle rather than not having Mary as a wife (I suspect).
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mr Curly
Off to Curly Flat
# 5518
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Posted
When writing the script for a Passion Play, I had to work through which Marys I was going to portray and how.
I soon realised that my MM images all came from Superstar, not from scripture. When I dug into it I struggled to unravel a MM character. In the end, I wrote Mary of Bethany (Martha's sister) as the main female "disciple", and almost left MM out.
I must say I like the protrayal of her in movie "Miracle Maker".
As for Dan Brown - moderately good fiction read.
Brains
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My Blog - Writing, Film, Other Stuff
Posts: 2645 | From: Curly Flat | Registered: Feb 2004
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Yep. You can see Dan Brown's hormones coming out of his ears, bless him! How many times does Sophie look in wide-eyed wonder at her male "teachers" with thoughts like "Gosh! I never thought of that...!"
Tangentially, I've just reched - sorry, reached - the mid three hundreds in TDVC and Brown's got a serious attack of Baigentitis - describing forthcoming revelations as "explosive". What a let-down! I was really enjoying his ripping yarn. Now it sounds as though the damp squibs are on the way...
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomOfTarsus:
Speaking of sexual-type matters, does it bother anybody that until recently, the two most popular views of MM are both defined by her sexuality: either a repentant whore, or a childbearing, secret wife? Like, she didn't or couldn't contribute to the church in any other fashion?
I'm still of the opinion that she was a full fledged disciple, an older woman (thanks, Moo & someone else I can't find right now), de facto leader of the women's contingient, and possibly the Mary mentioned in Romans 16.
But I may be impressing my 20th century viewpoint onto the Scriptures. Still, if you look at the overall way that women were treated by Jesus, it doesn't seem very patriachal to me.
What think y'sll? What role did she play in the early church?
Yes, it increasingly irritates me. I think that a large part of the reason women seemed to flock to Jesus is that he didn’t treat them as ‘different’, or weird, or as funny in some way, but as responsible people in their own right, who were challenged by him the same as any man. Dorothy L. Sayers wrote a wonderful essay once discussing this very thing – I wish I could find it again.
It was improper for a Jewish man to speak to a woman in the street, and yet Jesus starts up a conversation with the Samaritan woman. She is even the one to whom he confesses that he is the Messiah - and the disciples ‘were amazed that he was talking with a woman’! He teaches women, heals them, is not offended by their 'uncleanness' - no wonder they loved him and followed him to Golgotha.
Tom, I like your theory that Mary M was the Mary in Romans 16, I hadn’t thought of that before. I think it very plausible that she was older, possibly with private means at her disposal. Other women named are listed often as ‘the wife of…’ but she never is, and interestingly the Bethany household appear to comprise two unmarried sisters and a brother. I often wonder about the relationships between all these followers, and what happened to them later on.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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noneen
Shipmate
# 11023
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Posted
quote:
Da Vinci's painting of the Last Supper here clearly shows the figure to the left as you look as it as female.
Musician, - look at the person on the second left (as we look at the painting) - also a red haired, soft faced person. ....couldn't (s)he also fit your criteria for 'womanhood' !!?? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ... IMO its amazing how many people claim that one woman is in the painting but don't look at any other person there ... like it'd mess up the theory if there was more than one woman involved.
Which was part of what motivated a pope (Gregory, but i can't recall which gregory!!!) to declare that there were too many women in the gospels, and that in future we should just speak of two Marys ... Mary, mother of God, and Mary Magdelene, harlot. ... your basic 'all women are either virgins or whore".
So, can i suggest that the same principle might inadvertently be at action in Dan Brown and in Pope Gregory ... the idea that women fit into categories, and are minor characters in the lives of important men !!!
Mary of Magdelene - apostle, prophet, teacher, woman. Each of those aspects of her was threatening or challenging to some.
But by naming the aspect of her which most absorbs/threatens a person or institution; we reveal more about the person/institution than we do about Mary.
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... 'but Father, Jesus drank wine at Cana and danced' ... 'Not in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he didn't', Father replied
Posts: 472 | From: ireland | Registered: Feb 2006
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Noneen:
quote:
Which was part of what motivated a pope (Gregory, but i can't recall which gregory!!!) to declare that there were too many women in the gospels, and that in future we should just speak of two Marys ... Mary, mother of God, and Mary Magdelene, harlot. ... your basic 'all women are either virgins or whore".
I believe that it was Pope Gregory the Great - the one who sent St. Augustine to convert the English. I don't think that he declared there were too many women in the Gospel and that hitherto there should only be two. I think he *did* conflate St Mary Mags with another character and the conflation caught on. People talk as if it was a Papal smear campaign against MM but by the Sixth Century the Gnostics were largely forgotten and MM was regarded as Apostle to the Apostles. Lots of characters in the NT had dodgy pasts or feet of clay - Paul the persecutor, Matthew the tax collector, Simon the Zealot, Peter denying his Lord, James and John lobbying for seats in the cabinet. Our Lord spent a lot of time with repentant sinners so it wasn't an unreasonable surmise that MM may have been one of them.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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noneen
Shipmate
# 11023
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Posted
I think its probably a pre-requisite for discipleship actually, ... feet of clay !!!
its the cracks that let the light in (to misquote Cohen!)
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... 'but Father, Jesus drank wine at Cana and danced' ... 'Not in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he didn't', Father replied
Posts: 472 | From: ireland | Registered: Feb 2006
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Kelly, thanks for posting madteawoman's segment - it was the one I was thinking about.
But Callan, you seem to indicate that she was more highly regarded by the sixth century. Do you have any more info on what them regarding her as "Apostle to the Apostles" entailed? Did her role cease after telling them about the risen Christ? Is there any reasonable tradition with respect to her work in the church? I know the east & west have two separate traditions & each claim to have her remains...
And to Amethyst: The theory about Romans 16 isn't of my own origin - I've done some digging into this and I think it was out of Ester DuBoer's book (I think I got that right). but yes, His attitude toward women was markedly out of step with the times, it seems - as it was toward "sinners." But interesting about MM - She really isn't protrayed as a "sinner," though we all certainly fall under the designation. I don't know what demonic possesion entails, but as I noted, the demoniac is never referred to as "repenting," but instead is always healed and the response is one of gratitude. In figuring her out, I think it's important to look at what the Spirit was emphasizing, even if there ain't much there!
Blessings, all,
Tom
PS - Apoligies for bolding names, I just wanted it to catch your eyes on the quick scan...
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Cross posted with noneen & agree with him - er - her -er.... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Anyway, nice thought!
Tom
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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peterdstraw
Apprentice
# 11260
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Posted
What I don't get is why people give so much credance to a picture by Leonardo Da Vinci. Even if he did paint a woman, which it seems fairly certain to me he didn't how would that in any way add credibility to the assertion that Jesus married MM?
Posts: 16 | From: York | Registered: Apr 2006
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
I know what you mean, pete - anything to hype up a good, juicy conspiracy theory.
Tom
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
AFAIK, in the Orthodox Church, Mary Magdalene was not conflated with either Mary of Bethany or the sinful woman who washed Jesus's feet. She was, rather, a person of great personal power and wealth, and as the first to see the risen Lord and as the first to proclaim his Resurrection, she has always been known to us as Equal to the Apostles and as the Apostle to the Apostles.
When the Apostles left Jerusalem and scattered around the known to proclaim the Resurrection, Mary Magdalene went to Italy to preach the Gospel. The Mary that Paul mentions in his letter to the Romans is, by our tradition, Mary Magdalene.
While Mary was in Rome, she was invited to a banquet given by the Emperor Tiberius. When she met the Emperor, she held up a plain egg and exclaimed "Christ is risen!" You can imagine Tiberius's reaction -- rolling his eyes and saying that Christ rising from the dead was about as likely as the egg in her hand turning red -- and as he spoke, the egg in her hand turned a bright red. This story is the reason that most icons of Mary Magdalene show her holding a red egg, and the reason that we use red eggs at Easter.
IIRC, she's also thought to have been personally responsible for having Pontius Pilate condemned by Tiberius.
At any rate, according to our tradition, Mary Magdalene eventually retired to Ephesus, where she worked alongside John the Beloved for the sake of the Gospel, until her death.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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noneen
Shipmate
# 11023
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Posted
Josephine - could you point me towards sources or reading on this - i'd love to read more.
noneen (thats Miss Noneen, Tom!! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
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... 'but Father, Jesus drank wine at Cana and danced' ... 'Not in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he didn't', Father replied
Posts: 472 | From: ireland | Registered: Feb 2006
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Righteous Rebel
Ship's Hobbit Lover
# 7524
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Posted
Well, what an interesting new topic, though it has been debated since the first century or thereabouts.
As a student of gnostic writings, I have read what we have of the Gospel of Mary Magdalene in the Nag Hammadi Library and the Gnostic Bible.
I am a bit disappointed that what we have of
it is so fragmentary, and yet it is VERY enlightening. One must come to an understanding of gnostic philosophy and teaching to get a good grasp on the subject at hand.
It is still being widely debated (almost put "wildly" -Yungian slip?) whether Mary was married to Jesus or not. To me, the whole marriage thing is immaterial; that she was of apostolic stature is pretty much a sure thing.
I realize this runs contrary to the thinking of mainline Christianity, but then, A LOT OF THINGS run contrary to the thinking of mainline Christianity. There were a lot of gospels published before Constantine put out the order that only Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were inspired Scripture, which meant that the O.T. and the Book of Acts and other apostolic letters were considered "uninspired." Constantine's rationale? That there were four prevailing winds, that the earth had four corners [they still believed the earth was flat back then] and that the universe was supported by four posts, therefore there could only be four gospels. So, he ordered other writings burned and their writers and adherents along with them. Fortunately, certain monks buried or otherwise hid documents in the Egyptian desert, near Nag Hammadi, as well as other places, and the remaining portions of those scrolls were discovered two years before the Dead Sea Scrolls, but were pooh-poohed by orthodox thinkers.
I believe this is because at that time, the world and the church was largely under the jurisdiction of men and the the dangerous thought that women could be spiritual leaders was anathema to the powers that be. It is still that way very much today. Sad. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
I believe it is high time we in the Church wake up and begin to think and study for ourselves, and not be led around by men who are far more interested in power and politics than the eternal destiny of the people who sit glibly by and assume that because these men are educated that they are right.
Better stop; don't want to turn this into a rant! (By the way, I suggest for further reading and much better presentation than I have given, the works of Elaine Pagels, Marvin Meyer and other scholars on Gnosticism. I especially recommend Dr. Pagels' classic work, "Beyond Belief: The Gospel of Thomas."
You can pan for gold and find a nugget or two or you can mine - which takes a bit more time, but the time is well spent - and reap incalcuable results.
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To be or not to be: is there really any question?
Posts: 223 | From: Blue Ridge Mtns., TN USA | Registered: Jun 2004
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Josephine:
Thanks so much, I didn't know quite that much about the East's view of her - but I like it better than the West's - makes more sense according to the Scriptures.
Not so sure about the "power" aspect, though - as much as I can figure it out, demonic possession is pretty debilitating. And why is she kown by her city, not her family? Is it because she was so prominent there? Anyway, if anything, her power came out of her deep love for Christ, which is also why I believe she was first to see him alive on that Day of days.
Wealth is a possibility, though, as Luke indicates; though as I said in my original post, tha verse doesn't have to be absolutely true of all the women, or even imply that they are all wealthy. It's just hard to say, but I sure appreciate you input. It's good to know y'all put her on equal footing with the others.
Blessings,
Tom
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Has anyone read Margaret George's novel Mary, Called Magdalene? As fictional treatments of Biblical subjects go, it's certainly better done than DVC (and doesn't claim to be anything other than a piece of historical fiction).
It focuses quite a bit on the demon-possession aspect. On thing in it that was in the "Ooh, I never thought of that," category for me was that at one point Mary M meets up with Mary of Bethany and her family and is all like, "Who the heck are these people?" It made me think about the fact that Jesus travelled, and probably had followers in different areas who wouldn't necessarily have known each other ... I always had such a picture of the disciples as a tight little group.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Amelia
Apprentice
# 11262
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Posted
I'm struggled with this whole situation from the beginning it ever started to become "popular" since i'm very impressionable. I did some research spent hours thinking about it and came up with these conclusions:
1) I am female, I love my God. I can totally relate to Mary's feelings even if they appear to be "romantic" but I was best friends with a boy when I was younger and everybody thought we were going out. Speaks volumes about humans no? In a world were being alone or celibate is looked down upon.
2) Aren't there other Anti- Jesus sources from around that time, like that letter someone wrote trying to disprove the miracle of the eclipse. So don't you think that someone would have written about him being married, in a serious sense... not just weird "java" gospels?
3) So you're saying that cover-ups really do work very well and last for a long time do they... I dunno maybe they do but it all seems like "The Queen is really a lizard" to me.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Apr 2006
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madteawoman
Shipmate
# 11174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Righteous Rebel:
To me, the whole marriage thing is immaterial; that she was of apostolic stature is pretty much a sure thing.
I realize this runs contrary to the thinking of mainline Christianity, but then, A LOT OF THINGS run contrary to the thinking of mainline Christianity. There were a lot of gospels published before Constantine put out the order that only Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were inspired Scripture, which meant that the O.T. and the Book of Acts and other apostolic letters were considered "uninspired." Constantine's rationale? That there were four prevailing winds, that the earth had four corners [they still believed the earth was flat back then] and that the universe was supported by four posts, therefore there could only be four gospels.
A couple of points, RR:
Firstly, what we have been saying here is that the tradition of Mary as Apostle to the Apostles has not been suppressed by the church - we all know about it here. It may not have been widely circulated, but then neither has a lot of other orthodox belief. That is not the same as being suppressed. So its a long bow IMO to say that it runs contrary to mailine Christianity. (BTW I will be first in line to say that the church hierarchy has given and continues to give women a bum steer.)
Secondly, regarding the canon, I think it was Irenaeus who likened the four gospels to the four winds and the the four cherubs, not Constantine. And while Constantine, like all good Romans, liked order, the construction of the canon was not up to him. I'm sure there is another thread somewhere here about the canon, but let's rememebr that the canon was formed by the church asserting that these books best represented and traditioned the faith the church held dear, rather than the other books and letters which simply didn't do that.
Yes some non-canonical books were then burned at different times and in different places, but others simply died from lack of interest. No conspiracy there.
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Listen carefully to my words, and let this be your consolation.
Bear with me, and I will speak; then after I have spoken, mock on.
Posts: 1446 | From: by the fireside | Registered: Mar 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by madteawoman:
I'm sure there is another thread somewhere here about the canon, but let's rememebr that the canon was formed by the church asserting that these books best represented and traditioned the faith the church held dear, rather than the other books and letters which simply didn't do that.
There is a thread in Kerygmania about the deuterocanonicals, which contains discussion of how the OT canon was formed.
Moo
[ 12. April 2006, 01:59: Message edited by: Moo ]
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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madteawoman
Shipmate
# 11174
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Posted
Does it cover the NT canon too, Moo?
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Listen carefully to my words, and let this be your consolation.
Bear with me, and I will speak; then after I have spoken, mock on.
Posts: 1446 | From: by the fireside | Registered: Mar 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by madteawoman:
Does it cover the NT canon too, Moo?
No, it doesn't, but we would be very glad for you to start one there.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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peterdstraw
Apprentice
# 11260
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Posted
I took a sneaky peek at the gospel of MM whilst browsing in a bookshop today. I have to say I wasn't impressed. I can't put my finger on why but it just didn't feel like the word of God. Someone's bound to say that's because I'm used to the format of the synoptics but I don't think that was it. Anyone else get this sort of feeling when reading the gnostics?
Posts: 16 | From: York | Registered: Apr 2006
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
I get that feeling when I'm reading both the gnostics and the canon.
There are some bits that make my hair stand on end, the truth just sinks in so fast and so deep it's impossible to shake it.
There are other bits that say to me "Hm. Don't think I'm quite getting that message. Either I am missing information/experience/understanding that would flesh it out, or it's just not coming from the Source."
I don't dismiss it, I just set it aside and wait for more information/experience/understanding.
GMM doesn't stir me, partly because most of what she has to say has been lost in the lacunae.
The Thunder Perfect Intellect, OTOH, gives me gooseflesh every time.
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
I read the GMM (what we have of it) in Esther DuBoer's book, and I'm with you, Pete - stilted and unconvincing,and pandering to the pride of the human heart as I recall.
Blessings,
Tom
BTW, welcome to the ship! I just noticed your post count...
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by madteawoman:
Does it cover the NT canon too, Moo?
No, it doesn't, but we would be very glad for you to start one there.
I've started the thread here.
There is already one very informative reply.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
There was a very good series of programmes on BBC2 over the weekend exploring various ‘Easter masterpieces’, the first being Leonardo’s Last Supper. Very lucidly it considered all aspects of the painting, through the initial commission to its state now, and shattered the Mary M conspiracy of TDVC quite comprehensively. Even taking into account just the numerous restorations over the years should convince Joe Public that Leonardo did not paint a woman instead of St John, I would have thought.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
First, apologies for my, even to me as read this week, absolutely insane posts earlier on this thread.
I do often start discussion in mid thought, forgetting that while I may know what I'm thinking(on a good day), unless I explain the thought process which got me to that point, merely to offer the point is useless, so I'm very sorry Louise, I was not trying to diss your expertise.
B62, you got your head in your hands too -
Just for the record, I don't believe the conspiracy theory implicit in the book - never did, but it's good fun. "Angels and Demons" is even better though. Didn't like "Deception Point" at all - seemed he'd got a winning formula in the other books and just changed the names and places and shuffled the plot cards around a bit for it.
Anyone read Ehrman's book "Truth and Fiction in the Da Vinci Code"? It's worth a read. IMO
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
musician
That really is very good of you; I appreciate what you say. My head did not really feel it was in my hands and is certainly now securely on my shoulders; the brain inside has good days and bad days. So I understand the awareness of self-inflicted embarrassment, from lots of personal experiences! My wife has some good stories ....
I haven't read the book you recommend but I'll try to get a copy.
God bless
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mikethealtarboy
Apprentice
# 11317
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Posted
I regards to depicted males and females. ;-)
I think there's definately some modern cultural stereotyping of what genders look like in seeing John as a woman.
I was at an Italian restaurant about a month ago, and one of the servers was absolutely the most androgynous young man I've ever seen - quite beautiful, quite "feminine", but still male.
Contrarywise, more than once I've seen out of the corner of my eye what I at first took to be an attractive young man, only to have my second look reveal that it was a woman with a "masculine" haircut.
At the Roman Basilica in St. Louis, Missouri, on the baldachin, are 4 statues, that are rather hard to see from the floor. I was priveledged to accompany a photographer friend into the usually inaccessible parts of the church for angles he wanted, and got to see the statues more clearly. Upon returning to the narthex, I asked the guide who they were - I didn't recognize the "woman". "They're the 4 evangelists", he said. Even I can fall prey to our stereotyping!
Posts: 9 | From: Nevada | Registered: Apr 2006
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