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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Gospel of Judas
Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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So far as I can see, Gnostics need a high degree of education to understand their texts and the context thereof, so I can hardly see how Gnosticism can be regarded as anti-intellectual, frankly, as some here appear to believe that it is.

However true or mistaken it is as a world, the accusation of being anti-intellectual makes little sense from what I know of it.

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
wild speculation about our Lord based on second or third century heretical documents.

Um, how do we know that they are all written in the second or third century? We know that we have
copies of them from that time - but that is a whole different ball game.

I can't really see what, other than a mainstream "because-we-say-so" authourity agenda, makes these gospels less likely to contain truth than the canonical ones. Or less authorative.

I find the evolution of Judas from another disciple to evil incarnate to be a fascinating example of scape-goating, with all the incumbant consequences it has in this case.

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
I agree with Elaine Pagels that Irenaeus did what he should have done: he picked the 4 Gospels that are most easily understood. That being said, they still contain messages that are by no means easy to understand.

....and the reasons he gave for needing four gospels (four points on a compass etc) are utterly bogus.

.....and being easier to understand does not in any way or sense mean they are more likely to be true.

.....and although the Gnostic gospels contain many contraversial claims (and I am thinking here of the comments about women in the Gospel of Thomas, which were probably not part of the original anyway) it would seem rather silly to insist that these statements be taken literally or as read - esp given Gnostic attitudes to absolute truth claim and to mythology.

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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quote:
Originally posted by m.t-tomb:
This time next year The Gospel of Judas will be in the bargain bin of a cheap bookshop near you. The Bible on the other hand will be selling hand over fist at exorbitant prices as per usual. [Smile]

Which is the sort of complacent triumphalism that turns me off completely.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
....and the reasons he gave for needing four gospels (four points on a compass etc) are utterly bogus.

Which is the sort of complacent triumphalism that turns me off completely.

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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Fine.

Care to address the substance of the question now?

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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What question would that be?

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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Well, I thought you might care to hold forth on why we shouldn't question the canon. Perhaps I was wrong?

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Question it all you want. Don't expect me to join you. I think that God was in charge of the canonisation process. Others disagree. Something of a non-starter.

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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Papio

The compass thing reads like rhetoric, not reason. A pictoral summary. Irenaeus's real concerns about the other gospels are explored in detail in his written work.

Why have some early Christian writings been given more credibility than others? It's a good question. It is also safe to say that it was a question which exercised the minds of the folks who sat on the councils which, eventually, decided the issue. I'm thinking about a separate thread on the subject. Not sure whether it should go on this new board, or in Kerygmania. Thinking also about a suitable OP. But there may be a fair number who would like to have their say on that topic. More, maybe, later.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Some of the non-canonical gospels are obvious rubbish. There is one about Jesus's childhood which contains the following story.

Jesus and his friends were playing. Jesus was a king, and all passersby, including the adults, were compelled to bow down to him. Then a funeral procession came by. Jesus ordered them to stop, and then he raised the dead person.

Whenever something remarkable happens, you hear many stories about the event. Some of these are factual, with minor mistakes; some are sheer nonsense; some are made up to prove some point.

I reject the gnostic interpretation because it conflicts with everything Jesus said about humility. If you can be saved only by having specific knowledge, this shuts out children, mentally deficient adults, and people who have to work so hard they don't have time to acquire the knowledge. When Jesus spoke about children, he said, "Of such is the kingdom of heaven". No child is capable of understanding the gnostic teachings.

Moo

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas62
The compass thing reads like rhetoric, not reason. A pictoral summary. Irenaeus's real concerns about the other gospels are explored in detail in his written work.

Ok, maybe I was off-base with that. I guess his conerns were that the Christians who were being murdered knew what they were giving up, and why.


quote:
More, maybe, later.
That would be interesting.

Moo:

quote:
Jesus and his friends were playing. Jesus was a king, and all passersby, including the adults, were compelled to bow down to him. Then a funeral procession came by. Jesus ordered them to stop, and then he raised the dead person.

Obvious rubbish? Why?

In the canonical gospels, Jesus is portrayed as a king, as a healer and miracle worker and as someone whom others should bow before. The Gnostic texts use myth and allegory, but then so do the canonicals. What appeals to me about the Gnostic texts is that we are not required to see the events they portray as historical in the sense that we would use.

quote:
Whenever something remarkable happens, you hear many stories about the event. Some of these are factual, with minor mistakes; some are sheer nonsense; some are made up to prove some point.
Surely there are examples of all of the above in the canonicals?

quote:
I reject the gnostic interpretation because it conflicts with everything Jesus said about humility. If you can be saved only by having specific knowledge, this shuts out children, mentally deficient adults, and people who have to work so hard they don't have time to acquire the knowledge. When Jesus spoke about children, he said, "Of such is the kingdom of heaven". No child is capable of understanding the gnostic teachings.

But hell is given a very different spin, AFAIK, in the Gnostic texts. Rather than eternal damnation, those who aren't saved are rather reincarnated (in at least some versions) and given another chance. I know which I prefer, given the Christian stories of babies screaming in the fiery furnace.

Also, in at least one Gnostic text (the Gospel of Thomas?) Jesus says that those who are truly wise will not hesitate to ask little children about the meaning of life.

Further on the Gospel of Thomas and women - surely it is a legimate interpretation of the possible addition to the end of that Gospel to say that women were frowned upon in that society, and so what it means by making themselves like men is that they can rise above the prejudices against them with the nobility of spirit that is part of Gnostic teaching? Indeed, to rise above those men who are not chosen. They become male not by ceasing to be female, but by becoming the chosen.

Gnosticism also offers, for me, a more convincing theory of the origin of evil than I have ever read in mainstream Christianity and more hope in that it is surely ultimately universalist?

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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812

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There's knowledge as an intellectual conceit, and there's knowledge as understanding, and a deep acquaintance with, a truth that is hidden.

I think a good example of the type of knowledge that gnosis represents is in the movie "Crash". The young inexperienced police officer condemns his partner as a racist and asks for a different assignment. The racist partner tells the younger man "You think you know yourself. Wait until you've been doing this for a while."

Later in the movie, the off-duty young officer impulsively commits a racially inspired murder. Only through the commitment of the deed does he finally understand that his violent judgment agaisnt racism was denial, and a projection of his very own deeply hidden racism.

This is gnosis. It's not arrogant. It's humbling, harsh and lethal to the ego. Without it, there's no hope of repentance. There is no hope for redemption.

It's fine to mouth the words "I'm a sinner" but if one has no deep feeling of how one allows sin to operate in one's life, how can one wholly repent?

FF

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