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Source: (consider it) Thread: Exploring Gnosticism
Barnabas62
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Callan

I think that is fair. My view from "inside" is actually very similar. Maybe the key idea actually is "gnosis". One of the least attractive features of some of the Valentinian gnostics was that they divided the ancient church explicitly between those in error and in ignorance, and those who had come to know the truth (comment by Pagels in Beyond Belief). This was tied up with the idea of a "second baptism" in a ritual called apolutrosis. I remember feeling the heat of a familiar fire when I read that.

In his comment, Irenaeus talks about someone "elated" who goes "strutting around with a superior expression on his face, with all the pomposity of a cock". Well, it's pretty pejorative language, but I have come across analogous behaviour. Enthusiasm is attractive, over-enthusiasm giving rise to superiority isn't.

But the truth is, it's "some and some". And the idea of superior knowledge, or gnosis, or experience is not confined just to charismatics in the church. At least not IME. The temptation to pride is pretty general.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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A Feminine Force
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Hi,

In a couple of other threads, I gave examples of a moment of gnosis. I think in the orthodox canon, the moment of the cock crow is Peter's moment of self revelation. He attains gnosis: "intimate acquaintance with" himself. It's devastating, and rips apart his illusions of what kind of a person he thinks he is.

I think it's fair to say, if it's arrogant, it's not gnosis. If it doesn't kill the ego and destroy its works in your life, it's not gnosis.

Irenaeus might have detested an air of superiority in some third century gnostics. It's hard to tell if he was projecting some of his own unknowns, or if this was a completely objective observation. As noted, a similar air of smug superiority can be seen on the faces of the members of the 700 Club.

From his general antipathy, I reserve judgment about Irenaeus' objectivity, but am willing to bet there were as many third century gnostics who "got it wrong" as there are present day Christians who "don't get it". However, I don't judge all present day Christians by the mannerisms of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

FF

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Divine Outlaw
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quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
If it doesn't kill the ego and destroy its works in your life, it's not gnosis.

G.K. Chesterton couldn't have put the case for the humanism of orthodoxy better.

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Barnabas62
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AFF

This is a crux of the exploration, at least as far as I am concerned. I accept your personal view that arrogant understanding isn't "gnosis". My problem, historically, is that it was precisely Valentinian arrogance which was a key factor in getting gnosticism a bad name! So I think you are arguing that the inappropriate behaviour of the Valentinians was not "gnosis". What seems historically very likely indeed is that there was arrogance by Valentinian followers. (Pagels, who is sympathetic to gnostic world views, confirms this. Her analysis does not come from an orthodox Christian POV).

You may be saying the same sorts of things that I am saying about charismatic renewal. I am saying that if anything proclaimed in its name is arrogant presumption, it is human error. You are saying that if anything is arrogant presumption, it clearly isn't gnosis. I guess, in common with DOD, we are all saying that arrogant presumption is unChristian! (Maybe this is progress?)

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A Feminine Force
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Hey!

I think we can claim a few more square inches of common ground. [Smile] Arrogance is not a Christian value.

I don't know if the Valentinians were actually arrogant, or misunderstood/misperceived (wilfully or otherwise) or some fatal combination of the two. I respect Elaine Pagels' opinion on the matter, but I reserve agreement because I don't think she can say for certain any more than I can. The information available is too polarized and polemical for me to be able to conclude anything except that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, which is lost now.

Like I said earlier, we never got a chance to see how Christian gnosticism might have evolved into the present, so I disagree almost as much with Valentinus as I do with Paul, Augustine, Aquinas et al.

If you feel inclined to reject Valentinian gnosticism because you think it caused people to be arrogant and insensitive to the martyrs, that's as good a reason as me rejecting it because it promotes a dualism that doesn't make sense to me. Works for me. [Smile]

FF

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Barnabas62
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That's very good. I'm going to press a personal pause button here, probably for a day or two. Leaving some space for reflection, and certainly for others to comment. IME, discussions like this dont happen too often. Thanks very much indeed.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Divine Outlaw
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Um, I was suggesting that sidelining the ego (as distinguished from egomania) actually isn't very Christian at all. There is an absolutely proper self-regard (hence, 'love your neighbour as you love yourself).

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Barnabas62
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Yes I know. I chose my words quite carefully. It was one of the things I want to reflect on. There is a difference between "death of ego" laguage and "dangers of pride" language, but often folks mean pretty much the same thing. Its Thomas a Kempis territory; the notion of inordinate self-love. Still reflecting, however ...

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Barnabas62
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Given the turn in the thread, here is a link provided on a current Purg thread about the sense of eternity. It contains the following quote.
quote:
Religion is supposed to be about the loss of the ego, not about its eternal survival in optimum conditions.


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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A Feminine Force
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That's the mystery and paradox of gnosis.

Only by dismantling what one thinks is "self", does one find what is truly "Self".

FF

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Barnabas62
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My short period of reflection provoke in me a question to contributors. What is your understanding of the place of community values and beliefs in the journey of faith? I think this question may help in exploring both gnosticism and the reaction it provoked - and still provokes - amongst orthodox Christians.

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Mikethealtarboy
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As an example of how "Christian Gnosticism might have evolved into the present", would it be unfair to look to the Christian Kabbalah? Although it's not a direct successor to early Christian gnosticisms, it's certainly a relative on the family tree. Being the preserve for a very long time of Judaism filters out a lot of what *I* found distastful in gnosticism - matter/spirit dualism, evil Jewish creator God, etc. But, given that Christianity is built on a Jewish foundation anyway, those early writers (Lull, della Mirandola) found it to fit well enough with Christianity too. And as the Christian Kabbalah developed further under the "Rosicrucians" and hermeticists, it seems to offer a gnostic path that is *alternative* to orthodox path - but not mutually exclusive.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?

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Barnabas62
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Mikethealtarboy - belated welcome to the Ship.

You put your finger very well on what I also find obnoxious about gnosticism - its cosmology. Apparently, AFF has similar problems with its dualism. What I suppose puzzles me is the modern interest. Is it just because any validity in gnosticism supports the Imperial Orthodoxy thesis. Is it just because of Hag Hammadi? Or is it because there in something in the gnostic thinking which links into our present cultures and anxieties?

Basically, I saw the cosmology as its religious foundation, perceived that as flawed and fanciful and shelved the rest. Maybe there is something in your line. Would you like to go a bit further.

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A Feminine Force
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I don't personally find the cosmology offensive, it's some gnostic schools' interpretations of the cosmology that I object to. Ditto for orthodox cosmology and interpretations.

The early orthodox church seemed incapable of avoiding the dualism of a "heaven/hell, reward/punishment, Christ/Satan" struggle. I think this is because of the physical circumstances of the world at the time (and which continue). The world contains what we experience as evil. How do you reconcile Christ's unifying message of "God loves eveyone so you must love everyone, including your enemies" with a daily experience that clearly includes evil?

By the same token, I think the early gnostics seemed incapable of concluding that the Architect of the Universe, (because he was a being conceived in confusion, darkness and pain), was capable of creating anything that didn't contain the taint of his origins. His products were necessarily imbued with his suffering and ignorance, and therefore his creation is inherently flawed and evil.

Something the early gnostics missed, which is abundantly apparent to me, is that the Ialdabaoth is just as much the child of the Ineffable Oneness of Being as his mother Sophia. The gnostic cosmology does not permit anything to exist apart or independent of the One. All grades of "being" have their being in yet another, higher form of being. All are sustained within the One, and are part of the Entirety.

It's this unity-of-being around which I organize my beliefs about reality.

I think it's also important to understand that gnosis isn't head-knowledge about the world, it's self-knowledge. The promise of gnosis is this: understand yourself, be intimately acquainted with your inmost heart, understand with your heart and not your mind, and you will understand/be at peace with the world.

I think this is a powerful attractor to the modern post-freudian mind. The intellect has limits, the heart has no boundaries. I think many people are ready to do some deep-water diving into a heart-based way of knowing. Eastern traditions all point to this kind of knowing, but we are discovering that the same thread of thought also flows like an undercurrent in our own tradition. Esoteric Christian traditions that speak in symbols (alchemy, hermetism, canon parables) provide one with signposts.

I personally could resonate intellectually with many of the eastern teachings, but they were sterile to me, because they lacked Christic imagery, fire, love and delight. I didn't want to experience the Buddha of compassion. I wanted to experience the passion for Christ. My unfulfilled love was for Christ, and I suspect many people feel the same way. I was so relieved what I found that the gnostic tradition perfectly marries a passionate and living love of Christ with the teachings of the east that feel so rational and pure.

FF

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Mikethealtarboy
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Barnabas, I don't know that I could go much further without being inadvertantly quite unclear. :-) But if your library has "A Garden of Pomegranates" by Israel Regardie, or "The Mystical Qabalah" by Dion Fortune, those would give you the basis of what I'm refering to.

(I'd point out too that eastern-like self-knowledge isn't *just* an undercurrent - it's in some rather mainstream texts! like "The Interior Castle" of St. Theresa of Avila.)

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:

The early orthodox church seemed incapable of avoiding the dualism of a "heaven/hell, reward/punishment, Christ/Satan" struggle. I think this is because of the physical circumstances of the world at the time (and which continue). The world contains what we experience as evil. How do you reconcile Christ's unifying message of "God loves eveyone so you must love everyone, including your enemies" with a daily experience that clearly includes evil?

I can very easily understand where this came from and I suppose it may contain some truth about the behaviour of some of those who counted themselves Orthodox. But I actually find something deeper in Orthodoxy (or at least, my protestant nonconformist "orthodox" take on it). And it may be, AFF, that the sort of refining of gnosticism that you have been thinking about (on your own or with others) brings you from a soemwhat different path to somewhere pretty close to me.

My understanding of Orthodox belief incorporates an understanding of the Kingdom of God, which is, and is not. (An aside - there is some argument about the differences of meaning in the use of "kingdom of heaven and "kingdom of God" and I don't want to go there). There is also the prophetic promise that God will be "all in all". And the picture that the role of the believing community is to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world. A "bringer in".

What we see now is not the way things will be. We are called to a way of life where what we do now is to be harmonious with what will be. That way, the kingdom is brought into greater reality now. The "is not" of the kingdom moving towards the is. God is working His purpose out as year succeeds to year. And the Spirit of God helps us in this journey towards the promised wholeness, the "all in all"ness.

That does not seem to me to be dualism, rather it it the antidote to all dualisms. It is the acted out redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ, with us drawn by him into the community of the redeemed and the redeeming. It is not unmindful of the struggle, the pain of living in the "is and is not". But we have an inkling of the end-game. We are saved by a living hope. Our present practice and our future destiny is, essentially, to be and become the body of Christ. To see him more clearly, love him more dearly and follow him more nearly, day by day.

Eschatology is a controversial topic, of course. I think the above is orthodox (and Orthodox). It seems to me to harmonise with one of the most central messages from the four canonical gospels. I'd be interested how you and others see it.

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Barnabas62
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Quick PS. After today I'm off on family and friends visits for 12 days and will be resting from Ship discussions. The exploration has reached, for me at least, another very interesting place, so I'm looking forward to seeing what, if anything, happens while I'm away.

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PerkyEars

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quote:
(I'd point out too that eastern-like self-knowledge isn't *just* an undercurrent - it's in some rather mainstream texts! like "The Interior Castle" of St. Theresa of Avila.)
Which translation are you reading? I know of one, by Mirabai Starr, who didn't like Theresa's Catholic theology and replaced a lot of her Christian expressions by New-Agisms.
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Mikethealtarboy
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I don't know about that translation; mine is by E. Allison Peers, and seems fairly catholic. :-)
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A Feminine Force
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Hi Barnabas,

Posting in your absence. If I may, I'd like to comment on some of your thoughts.

quote:
What we see now is not the way things will be. We are called to a way of life where what we do now is to be harmonious with what will be. That way, the kingdom is brought into greater reality now. The "is not" of the kingdom moving towards the is.


Yes, from one perspective I can see how this is so.

I see it from another perspective where the IS NOT is contained in the IS. That is, what I perceive to be a "lack" or "imprefection" is already perfectly embodied and contained in the totality. From this POV, it's not a matter of "moving toward" anything, the perfection already IS. From this perspective it's a matter of "moving out of" a state of being into a state of being that already exists and encloses the present.

It's a spatial as opposed to a linear POV I think. Refers back to Plato.

quote:
God is working His purpose out as year succeeds to year. And the Spirit of God helps us in this journey towards the promised wholeness, the "all in all"ness.


Amen.

quote:
That does not seem to me to be dualism, rather it it the antidote to all dualisms. It is the acted out redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ, with us drawn by him into the community of the redeemed and the redeeming. It is not unmindful of the struggle, the pain of living in the "is and is not". But we have an inkling of the end-game. We are saved by a living hope. Our present practice and our future destiny is, essentially, to be and become the body of Christ. To see him more clearly, love him more dearly and follow him more nearly, day by day.


Yes.

quote:
Eschatology is a controversial topic, of course. I think the above is orthodox (and Orthodox). It seems to me to harmonise with one of the most central messages from the four canonical gospels. I'd be interested how you and others see it.


I think Tim LaHaye would be very surprised if he found himself in the "end" I have glimpsed. He'd be astonished to find out who he would be keeping company with. [Biased]

FF

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Barnabas62
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Thanks AFF, good value as always. I think I can quite happily live the rest of my life without wondering what will happen to Tim la Haye. Your time point was well made. I "get" that when considering the "is and is not" of the kingdom - but of course it is one of the limitations of language. Oddly enough, I'm actually very comfortable with no more than an "inkling" about the future. Personally, it helps me to live more actively in the present. But it takes all sorts. Even Tim-la-Haye-like all sorts.

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