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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Quite so - and, in any case, the Collect (in the C of E, at any rate) is often simply not written or printed in a way easily read by all.
A Fond Thing Vainly Invented, saying the Collect all together, and calculated to Make The Baby Jesus Cry.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kayarecee:
What's the theological rationale for having the congregation recite the Collect/Prayer of the Day in unison?
For that matter, what's the rationale for having only the celebrant/Presiding Minister pray it?
I imagine some idiot made the leap from collect to collective, and went from there.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There is every reason for the presider/celebrant to say it alone since it is his/her prayer once the community has 'collected'.
No, it's the prayer that collects our diverse prayers into one. The Mass only starts "once the people have gathered."
I think the main reason it is appointed for the presider alone is practicality. There's nothing exclusively priestly about the prayers themselves, as the same prayers are often used as closing prayers in the Liturgy of the Hours. It's the position in the Mass that calls for the presider to collect our prayers together.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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croinua
Apprentice
# 18252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
There's nothing exclusively priestly about the prayers themselves, as the same prayers are often used as closing prayers in the Liturgy of the Hours.
But it is reserved, still, for the officiant alone - not to be said (indeed sung) by all.
It's almost standard practice in Ireland for the closing prayers to be recited by the full assembly when praying the LOTH.
Posts: 12 | From: Ireland | Registered: Oct 2014
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
A Mystery Worship of bishops, I hope.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
An Argument of Bishops, attended singly and severally by a Flock of Deans.
YMMV
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
A bash of bishops?????
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
![[Smile]](smile.gif) You keep your personal habits to yourself, Gee D.
I once had to convene a visit of 17 Archdeacons to the Welsh Assembly. Did rather make me regret the decline of gaiters- that would have been a sight to see. Don't know the collective noun, though: A quibble of Archdeacons? A reprimand of Archdeacons?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Either of those is not bad, but it is a collation of archdeacons. If they are of the prissy type, its "a dainty cold collation".
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
According to this it's a bench of bishops or possibly (I've never heard this one) a psalter of bishops.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Either of those is not bad, but it is a collation of archdeacons. If they are of the prissy type, its "a dainty cold collation".
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
collective noun for bishops?
Surely either a dither or a procrastinate ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Are these merry witticisms really 'liturgical questions'? *looking suspiciously...*
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
You may consider me pre-rebuked, but the denizens of Ecclesiantics seem to be exactly those who can help me in my puzzlement.
My Scottish and English recipe books state clearly that the jam in High Church Pudding may be "any, except blackcurrant". An Australian recipe for the dish prescribes "blackcurrant".
Can anglicans not even agree on how to prepare a simple suet pudding?
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
You may consider me pre-rebuked, but the denizens of Ecclesiantics seem to be exactly those who can help me in my puzzlement.
My Scottish and English recipe books state clearly that the jam in High Church Pudding may be "any, except blackcurrant". An Australian recipe for the dish prescribes "blackcurrant".
Can anglicans not even agree on how to prepare a simple suet pudding?
Pah! I blame it on Sydney Anglicans.
(But then I blame all things on Sydney Anglicans...)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
To return strictly to the subject of archdeacons - and particularly archdeaconesses, as we still have the vocational diaconate for women deacons here. A group of retired archdeaconesses is correctly referred to as a décolletage. All, I hope, within hostly bounds.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
You may consider me pre-rebuked, but the denizens of Ecclesiantics seem to be exactly those who can help me in my puzzlement.
My Scottish and English recipe books state clearly that the jam in High Church Pudding may be "any, except blackcurrant". An Australian recipe for the dish prescribes "blackcurrant".
Can anglicans not even agree on how to prepare a simple suet pudding?
Pah! I blame it on Sydney Anglicans.
(But then I blame all things on Sydney Anglicans...)
I was going to say that! Then it occurred to me that High Church Pudding, whatever the jam, might be abhorrent to them. Or perhaps they see some symbolism in eating it up.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I am turning up the sleeves on what is alleged to be a Franciscan friar's robe. The usual dark brown hooded thing -- but it is made out of stretchy polyester double knit! Argh. St. Francis would never wear such a thing, this is more of an Arnold Palmer kind of fabric. I will say that it probably wears like iron, washes well, and never wrinkles or stains. So my question: do Franciscans really wear polyester these days? (And if so, how can the Pope allow this?)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
It wouldn't be up to the pope.
Decisions on things to do with dress for religious fall under the remit of the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life - known in short as the Congregation for the Religious.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
All Souls' questions: what liturgical color are parishes using (I believe Roman Catholics have the option of white, black, or violet)? Is the Gloria sung (I believe GIRM only mentions Sundays in Advent or Lent as Sundays where the Gloria is omitted)? Are there high Anglicans who are celebrating All Souls', instead of All Saints' Sunday? Is it conceivable that a parish would use black -- and sing the Gloria?
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
For a Sunday morning service in Trinity season, even on All Souls Day, I would be surprised if any Anglican/RC church omits the Gloria during Mass.
As you probably know, during Sunday morning worship, the Sunday in Trinity always takes precedence over All Souls. (Now I think All Saints would take precedence.)
I suspect if a church wants to focus more on All Souls, they would do that during an Evening Prayer instead.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
We (OF RCs) are celebrating All Souls' Day next Sunday. The Gloria is indeed omitted. Our diocesan liturgy office sent us an email informing us of that. The color choices are indeed white, violet or black. I'm going to ask my pastor what he wants me to wear (or, as my Mass is later than his, just notice what he wears and do the same). At our place, as it's still a Green season, the sanctuary furnishings will stay green regardless.
There are many options for the readings, but our ordo suggests Wis 3:1-9, Ps 23, Rom 5:5-11, Jn 6:37-40.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Planeta Plicata
Shipmate
# 17543
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Posted
EF RC here, so no Gloria, black vestments, absolution with a catafalque, unbleached beeswax candles, etc. Since November 2 is a Sunday, it's transferred to November 3 this year – and I think some years it can even be pushed out to November 4 where impeded on the Monday.
Posts: 53 | Registered: Feb 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We have our All Souls Requiem as the Vigil Mass on the Saturday this year: since we sing the setting by Faure there is no Gloria.
Black vestments, unbleached candles.
We're CofE.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
I suspect if a church wants to focus more on All Souls, they would do that during an Evening Prayer instead.
All Souls is best kept by a requiem mass.
I can appreciate that Evening Prayer or some other Word Service might be appropriate for those churches who invite relatives of those whose funerals have occurred during the preceding year.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
We keep our Patronal Festival (of All Saints') in the morning, with our All Souls' Requiem in the afternoon. The latter is our second best attended service of the year, after the Midnight Mass of Christmas. We invite all those whose funerals have been conducted by our clergy during the year, and those who have asked to join the growing list invited every year.
<Grr... the vicar insists on keeping it in white. I know it's a valid choice but ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) >
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
We invite all those whose funerals have been conducted by our clergy during the year
We invite the families of all those whose funerals have been conducted by our clergy during the year.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
We invite all those whose funerals have been conducted by our clergy during the year
We invite the families of all those whose funerals have been conducted by our clergy during the year.
Presumably the former invitation is a Hallowe'en event ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
We have our All Souls Requiem as the Vigil Mass on the Saturday this year: since we sing the setting by Faure there is no Gloria.
Black vestments, unbleached candles.
We're CofE.
At one time an Anglican church in Sydney, used to hold a Goth Mass on All Souls day, church lit only by candles, black clothes, all very atmospheric and used to attract the local Goth community who didn't usually darken the doorstep of churches.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
... the local Goth community who didn't usually darken the doorstep ...
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
They just made the interior look a bit darker ...
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
No Gloria, no Creed. Strictly speaking, All Souls shouldn't be commemorated on a Sunday, so we are celebrating Trinity XX on Nov 2 and All Souls on Nov 3 (the Victoria Requiem will be the ordinary & propers).
In black, of course!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
All Souls on Saturday at our regular 930am Mass, probably using black vestments.
All Saints on Sunday at the 1030am Mass, probably using white + red vestments (that is to say, mainly white, but with red orphreys etc.).
We had our biennial Memorial Service yesterday afternoon, arranged in conjunction with local funeral directors (they invite the families of their....er.... clients ....from the past two years). Full church. Father wore cassock, cotta, and purple stole - his usual vesture for funerals.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
collective noun for bishops?
Surely either a dither or a procrastinate
Or a 'Balderdash of Bishops'?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
An episcopy of bishops.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
All Souls' questions: what liturgical color are parishes using (I believe Roman Catholics have the option of white, black, or violet)? Is the Gloria sung (I believe GIRM only mentions Sundays in Advent or Lent as Sundays where the Gloria is omitted)? Are there high Anglicans who are celebrating All Souls', instead of All Saints' Sunday? Is it conceivable that a parish would use black -- and sing the Gloria?
In Canada, Anglo-Catholic parishes will not celebrate All Souls on a Sunday unless it is at a secondary service in the evening.
At our place, Saturday morning is the high mass for All Saints, Sunday is in the Octave, and Monday is All Souls, with the requiem (in black) in the evening. In Toronto, at St Thomas's, Huron Street, the latter takes the place of 7pm Evensong on Sunday, but they are fairly lazy about holy days falling on Saturday or Monday. St Mary Mag will do it on Monday. Others will do it at various times: according to our prayer book, the propers for the departed may be used at any time during the Octave of All Saints (St Matthias, Bellwoods, used to do it on the Wednesday, but I don't know what they've been up to in the absence of a full-time rector). In Montréal, the cathedral celebrated All Souls last year on Sunday the 3, but will keep it this year on Monday.
Apparently the ordinariate follows the modern Roman Rite in this respect, and I was surprised to see on Facebook a local sodality advertising a Solemn Requiem in the morning and Solemn Evensong & Benediction (!) in the afternoon. They certainly would not have done so in their days as an continuing Anglican cathedral adhering to the BCP calendar, when I visited them.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Our A-C TEC parish will do a 'compromise' rite (very anglican, Ya Know). (On Sunday, for a change)
To wit:
violet vestments (our blacks are sort of tacky);
incense at all the wrong places (Fr is afraid the acolytes would get confused!)
I waved Fortescue around, but it didn't work. He understood what I was saying, but wanted to be 'pastoral'.
BUT we're singing complete Fauré Requiem with organ and strings, and it should sound splendid.
PS: Rector will do silent Gregorian canon during Sanctus & Pie Jesu. (He's somewhat of a creature of contradictions, but I love him to pieces.)
Also a couple of Mozart church sonatas for opening and closing voluntaries. Yea! A good time should be had by all.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
We have our All Souls Requiem as the Vigil Mass on the Saturday this year: since we sing the setting by Faure there is no Gloria.
Black vestments, unbleached candles.
We're CofE.
This is the norm for A-C churches in Northampton too, will be in London this weekend so not sure what the churches around here do.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
We have our All Souls Requiem as the Vigil Mass on the Saturday this year: since we sing the setting by Faure there is no Gloria.
It doesn't matter whose setting you're using, the Gloria shouldn't be sung at a Requiem Mass.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
For the distant future when there are many mitred Catholic lesbians: a dicastery of bishops.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
It's been more than twenty-four hours and I still don't get it.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
I'm hazarding a guess - not as hazardous as the ill-conceived comment/joke - that it is meant to be sounded as 'dyke-castary'??
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
To return to the All Souls' topic: My wife's Catholic parish (a cathedral) at their Saturday vigil Mass celebrated Confirmation in the context of the Commemoration of All Soul's; white vestments. I'll be attending another parish in the area tomorrow morning.
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... since we sing the setting by Faure there is no Gloria.
It doesn't matter whose setting you're using, the Gloria shouldn't be sung at a Requiem Mass.
We did the Fauré yesterday and got round the Gloria problem by singing the In Paradisum at the end, where the Gloria would have been.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Joan Rasch
Shipmate
# 49
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Posted
Not exactly a question, but those interested in liturgical customs, and are free now [Mon Nov 3 11:55 am EST in US] can watch here to see a video feed of the funeral of Boston Mayor Thomas Menino. [Roman Catholic at an ordinary neighborhood parish]. So far at least, blessedly free of commentary; it's just a feed from the church.
cheers from Boston - Joan
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* A cyclist on the information bikepath
Posts: 509 | From: Boston, MA USA | Registered: May 2001
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Joan Rasch
Shipmate
# 49
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Posted
PS to above at 12:15: this is a live feed, and the procession through the city seems to be running late...
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* A cyclist on the information bikepath
Posts: 509 | From: Boston, MA USA | Registered: May 2001
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