|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
|
*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
|
Posted
I think this counts as a liturgical question:
I've noticed that street preachers tend to hold a microphone in one hand and a bible in the other. The bible is always closed, and they don't seem to have much intention of opening it and quoting passages (they can't because they'd have to put down the microphone).
So my question is: What is the logic behind the belief (apparently prevalent among churches who think that ranting at people on the street is a good idea) that holding a bible is an important thing to do while preaching, even if you're not going to open it?
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
No idea, but perhaps it's the unconscious irruption of symbolism into circles that don't usually go in for it.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
We just read Judges 4:1-7 on Sunday.
In my humble feminist opinion we could have happily continued till the end of the Chapter and read of the nice bed-time glass of milk followed by the tent peg hammered right through a sleeping man's skull...
Does anyone know if this passage is included in any of the Main Lectionaries? If so, when?
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
But surely Jael is an example of a Strong Woman, who doesn't conform to wimpy stereotypes imposed by patriarchal oppression?
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
Strong, brave, tricky and perhaps even a friend (or more?) of Deborah...
Just wondered if the rest of the story figured in any Lectionaries.
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kayarecee
Apprentice
# 17289
|
Posted
In the US, Jael is in the Episcopal Church's lectionary for the Daily Office (and so also in resources for daily prayer based off of it, like the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship: Daily Prayer, and the Lutheran Book of Worship), for Thursday of Proper 12 (Week of the Sunday closest to July 27) in Year 2. LBW, which uses the same readings but assigns them based on weeks after Pentecost the reading for Thursday of the week of 12 Pentecost, Year 2.
[ 17. November 2014, 21:09: Message edited by: Kayarecee ]
Posts: 25 | From: The Cornfields | Registered: Aug 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
Thanks - not long to wait, then!
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
We just read Judges 4:1-7 on Sunday.
Does anyone know if this passage is included in any of the Main Lectionaries? If so, when?
Fortunately not: the Anglican Lectionary here in Australia(mostly RCL) had for the Old Testament reading Proverbs 31.10-31.
--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
... because we haven't had a thread for posting general enquiries about liturgy in a while! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
... and also because I am going to be passing through London shortly and was planning to visit S. Cyprian Clarence Gate. Their website doesn't appear to have been updated in some time, so was wondering if anybody knows if their Sunday Mass is still at 10.30?
Much obliged!
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
|
Posted
I hope this question / request for advice fits into this section but if not, please could I be given a suggestion where it goes.
Its about cleaning church vestments. I mean chasubles, older ones. We have some that will go in a washing machine, no probs.
But we have some a bit more delicate. Do you take them to the dry cleaners?
I've noticed some charity shops have a steamer kind of thing that they seem to run over clothes. Does that clean, is it a good thing, whats it called, can it be hired?
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
|
Posted
As to dry-cleaning, much depends on the age of the vestment, the type of fabric, and whether there is any hand-embroidery.
Machine-sewn damask and brocade, provided that they are in sound condition, will respond well to careful dry cleaning.
Anything hand-embroidered presents more of a risk: much goldwork is couched to the underlying fabric with a series of transverse threads that in time will weaken and rot, and you could find that dry cleaning such a vestment would leave you with a jumble of detached gold.
The steaming devices to which you refer do not clean at all, but they are very useful for removing creases from fabrics that cannot or should not be subjected to ironing. A woollen garment can be freed from creases without undergoing a shine-producing encounter with a domestic iron, and hotels, for instance, can steam out curtains, drapes, and pleated table-skirts in situ.
--------------------
'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
|
Posted
Thank you for those thoughts Laud-able.
One or two of the items we send for dry cleaning have candle marks. Is that a problem with the dry cleaning process?
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
|
Posted
Dry cleaning will remove all candle wax.
--------------------
'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
Err, no: IME dry-cleaning frequently leaves wax or a mark.
The best way to remove candle wax is with blotting paper and a warm iron, having already lifted off as much of the wax as possible (having put soiled item in a 'fridge for a while before).
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
What l'Organist said.
We've recently had to send a dalmatic to the dry cleaners (the Deacon accidentally spilled some of The Most Precious Blood onto it), and apparently the firm are being most careful about what chemicals they are to use, in case of damage.........
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Well, we did think of just burning it, but it is quite new...... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Good point, though..... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What l'Organist said.
We've recently had to send a dalmatic to the dry cleaners (the Deacon accidentally spilled some of The Most Precious Blood onto it), and apparently the firm are being most careful about what chemicals they are to use, in case of damage.........
Ian J.
Damage to the vestment, of course.
What about damage to the MPB? The chemicals are interacting with the remnants of wine in a way clearly not contemplated by those who developed the theology and rules you have in mind.
Of course, you can say as an AC priest of my acquaintence does, that "Jesus got himself into it -- He can get himself out of it" (in connexion with the spillage of a quantity of consecrated wine onto a very large patterned carpet). But I don't suppose that bit of theology particulalry appeals...
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Piglet
Islander
# 11803
|
Posted
This isn't a liturgical observation as such, but I can't think of where else to put it - it's not enough of a rant to go downstairs, but I feel I need to vent slightly ...
I act as secretary for the local Cemetery Committee, whose meetings are held in turn at the eight churches who use the two Anglican cemeteries in the city, and this evening we met at a church where the vicar is, shall we say, a member of the Nice Brigade™. When we concluded the meeting with the Grace, she said, "At St. Saccharine's* we hold hands and look at each other when we say the Grace".
I did, because it would have been rude not to, but boy, was I ever out of my comfort zone ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
**shudder**
Thank you - that's got that off my chest. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
* name changed to protect the terminally sugary.
--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
"At St Bastard's, when someone makes a suggestion like that we puke all over them..."
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What l'Organist said.
We've recently had to send a dalmatic to the dry cleaners (the Deacon accidentally spilled some of The Most Precious Blood onto it), and apparently the firm are being most careful about what chemicals they are to use, in case of damage.........
Ian J.
Damage to the vestment, of course.
What about damage to the MPB? The chemicals are interacting with the remnants of wine in a way clearly not contemplated by those who developed the theology and rules you have in mind.
Of course, you can say as an AC priest of my acquaintence does, that "Jesus got himself into it -- He can get himself out of it" (in connexion with the spillage of a quantity of consecrated wine onto a very large patterned carpet). But I don't suppose that bit of theology particulalry appeals...
John
It's not really about damage to the MBS per se, though, is it? It's about damage (/damnation/more time on the fearful mountain &c) to us if we disrespect, destroy, or desecrate the Sanctissimum or allow it to be so desecrated. The penance Holy church used to prescribe for such actions was very lengthy...
So send to the dry cleaners if you must, but before anything make an act of reparation to the Blessed Sacrament, surely? That would also be a wonderful teaching moment for the congregation were it public.
--------------------
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
When we concluded the meeting with the Grace, she said, "At St. Saccharine's* we hold hands and look at each other when we say the Grace".
I did, because it would have been rude not to, but boy, was I ever out of my comfort zone ...
**shudder**
* name changed to protect the terminally sugary.
I hate that - when they do the grace, I shut my eyes throughout and make the sign of the cross.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
On dry cleaners: I've always found it pays to look for a specialist, independent cleaner - ones that advertise that they clean wedding outfits are usually very good with vestments.
On the Most Precious Blood: leo's right, once the substance has "lost the nature of wine" you can do pretty much what you like. The old Roman rules about that sort of thing aren't nearly as draconian as some folklore would have it. (De defectibus - "On defects in the Mass" - can make very entertaining reading.)
On joining hands to say the grace: try and arrange for a clergyperson to take your hand. Then scream, "It burns! It buuuuuurns!" You'll generally find the practice is discontinued thereafter.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
Hand holding I can take or leave. Some parts of my cultural ancestry go in for that sort of thing and some don't.
BUT what really got me was that the people were supposed to look at each other while saying grace (to God???)
For that, not the hand-holding, I say. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Piglet
Islander
# 11803
|
Posted
It would have looked rude to avoid the hand-holding and cross myself (my usual practice during the Grace), but I avoided the eye-contact by looking at my feet in a generally embarrassed fashion.
I can thank the Almighty that I'm not subjected to such things very often.
--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
On joining hands to say the grace: try and arrange for a clergyperson to take your hand. Then scream, "It burns! It buuuuuurns!" You'll generally find the practice is discontinued thereafter.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
I'm sure that has been asked many times before but please could somebody give me date and place of the Authentic First Sighting of the Advent Ring or Wreath?
It was described as an 'ancient Advent custom' by our former priest, to which I muttered 'not nearly as ancient as him'. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
(It's GREAT being an Aspie liturgist - so much opportunity for giving offence.....) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Being Advent Sunday, ours appeared yesterday and a child lit the first candle. There was a prayer about the patriarchs.
It's not that ancient. I'm fairly sure it's appeared within my lifetime. It's also fairly clear that the candles came first and the various explanations of what they might signify were added later. Churches abhor a symbol without something for it to symbolise.
[ 01. December 2014, 13:58: Message edited by: Enoch ]
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It's not that ancient. I'm fairly sure it's appeared within my lifetime.
Growing up Catholic, I can't remember ever seeing an Advent wreath in church until very recently. The Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Advent makes no mention of it.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Piglet
Islander
# 11803
|
Posted
Wikipedia has this to say about it, suggesting it evolved from a mid-winter/cycle-of-life thing (rather like Christmas in midwinter evolving from Yuletide, I suppose).
I suspect there will be several people along shortly to dispute Wiki's "Catholic"/"Protestant" distinctions ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
I can't remember encountering it in the UK before the 1980s myself. A Lutheran cross-over into the US Episcopal Church?
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
The Advent wreath has been around,like the Christmas tree,for many generations in Austria and Germany.The candles are almost always red just occasionally white,but I have never seen them,as is common in UK ,in the liturgical colours of the season of Advent.
Most homes have one,as well as offices,schools and large ones in churches.
In RC churches in Scotland they started to appear in the late 70s (By contrast it was only much later that Christmas trees appeared in RC churches in Scotland .) Advent wreaths are now fairly common in Presbyterian churches here which would not use candles at other times.They are still quite uncommon in private houses though many people buy a wreath and hang it on its side on the door.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It's not that ancient. I'm fairly sure it's appeared within my lifetime.
Growing up Catholic, I can't remember ever seeing an Advent wreath in church until very recently. The Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Advent makes no mention of it.
The Book of Blessings has a rite for blessing it during Mass. This occurs after the intercessions, even though a lot of churches do it as part of the opening rites. I imagine what happened is that most people added without realizing that we actually had a rite for that, so made one up themselves. (Most Catholic clergy don't actually spend their spare moments flicking through the index of De Benedictionibus).
I decided to stick with what people are familiar with varied slightly to not technically break any rubric. I and my candle bearers processed to the wreath rather than our usual places at the normal Mass starting time. I then blessed and lit the wreath, and then kiss the altar, walked to my chair, made the sign of the cross and began Mass. So, the blessing was technically not part of the Mass, even though it would have the feel of being part of the opening rites.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
the British children's TV show Blue Peter used to make their own Advent wreath over 40 years ago - a particularly lethal looking device made from wire coat hangers and tinsel - but I don't remember seeing on in church before the 80s
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Three purple and one pink candle seems to be the general UK tradition at least in Anglicanism (all varieties) as well as the RCC. I'm sure it's entirely due to the availability of same in convenient packs from ecclesiastical suppliers. However, those churches unused to Gaudete Sunday and rose vestments don't seem very clear about the significance of the pink candle.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
You're right about the rose candle, Angloid: I have heard some bizarre explanations of this!
The earliest version of a paraliturgy for candle lighting that I encountered featured a set of verses sung to the 'Holly and the Ivy' tune, and included a reference to the 'berry bright red candles and the white and shining king'.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
Its a borrowing from pre-Christian Germanic tradition.
Why so certain?
Well, in Scandinavia they still have their evergreen wreath - but there it is decorated with plain white candles and is worn as a crown by a young female because its morphed into a celebration for St Lucia (Lucy).
Our Norwegian au pairs used to do this and there was great rivalry between my sisters over who was to be St Lucy; we all dressed in white and St Lucy not only got the flaming crown but also a red sash around her middle.
The safety elf would love it, of course, traipsing up and down stairs wearing an anklelength robe (alb) with a covered wire crown with naked flame candles on it
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
I'm not at all convinced that anything in modern Europe is a genuine tradition that has survived right through from a pre-Christian past. It would have to have survived first Christianisation under the medieval Catholic Church which cleared out most of it, and then the Reformation which cleared out the rest.
There's a certain sort of folklorist that wants to believe this. I suspect it's partly a desire to find more mystery than there actually is, and partly a sort of folkloric Dawkinsism.
John Barleycorn is turned into some ancient message about death and rebirth, when it's obviously a song about beer, and give the impression of dating from about 1600. A lot of nonsense is talked about corn dollies, which I suspect largely date from the same sort of period or later, probably the C18.
It's natural and unsurprising that in the dark time of the year, people should like to light candles and do interesting things with them to cheer themselves up, particularly in the context of a religion that speaks of the Light of the World. One doesn't need to look any further to find the obvious source of familiar symbolism.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Three purple and one pink candle seems to be the general UK tradition at least in Anglicanism (all varieties) as well as the RCC. I'm sure it's entirely due to the availability of same in convenient packs from ecclesiastical suppliers. However, those churches unused to Gaudete Sunday and rose vestments don't seem very clear about the significance of the pink candle.
IME, using red candles is more common in the CoE - though maybe I know mostly very low churches?
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
3 purple, 1 pink and 1 white in the centre for us.
We don't run to rose vestments for Gaudete Sunday. By the time you have stoles, copes, and cinctures, then a frontal and matching paraments, you're looking at a decent sum of money - too much to justify.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
the British children's TV show Blue Peter used to make their own Advent wreath over 40 years ago - a particularly lethal looking device made from wire coat hangers and tinsel - but I don't remember seeing on in church before the 80s
I was going to say that I was pretty sure I remember Valerie Singleton making one, but I thought the candles were all white.
[ 02. December 2014, 02:49: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
4 red, 1 white candle usually here in the church. I can only remember seeing the purple and pink combinations in people's homes (and I tend to head to high churches for preference)
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
|
Posted
We use three purple, one rose and one white. I personally deplore the modern CoE fad of making everything liturgically coloured, but I fear I am fighting a losing battle on that one.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
|
Posted
Wikipedia reports a debate on whether it is a genuine pre-Christian custom, whether it was invented in the 16th Century or whether it dates from 1839.
It could be that more than one opinion is correct, depending on whether you think there's a significant difference between the Scandinavian St Lucia celebration and an advent wreath.
The reference in Wikipedia for the 'it's really ancient' theory doesn't itself have references.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm not at all convinced that anything in modern Europe is a genuine tradition that has survived right through from a pre-Christian past. It would have to have survived first Christianisation under the medieval Catholic Church which cleared out most of it, and then the Reformation which cleared out the rest.
When you look at these things, the evidence for them being pre-christian usually has major flaws, but there remain some odd elements to the celebration that make me often suspect there may be at least grain of truth to the stories of pagan origins.
I spent a bit of time trying to get my head round Halloween. There are (apparently; I haven't tracked down exact references) Irish sources from about the 10th century describing the 'pre-christian Samhain celebration', which involved a lot of stuff involving apples and fire. This celebration certainly happened into Medieval times (and more recently in some places) even if it didn't have a pagan origin. Since the reformation, the protestants invented all the evil spirits stuff as negative propaganda to try and get rid of Halloween, and 2 very interesting things happened. One is that the only thing left on Halloween is the negative propaganda. The other is that the old celebration re-invented itself as in indisputably protestant celebration - as guy fawkes night (which still has the apple and fire obsession).
So we can be fairly certain that the apples on Guy Fawkes night are a protestant continuation of the medieval all-saints day celebration. We can't be certain it really dates to a pagan festival, but the constant theme of apples and fire is a slightly strange detail so we can't discount the idea that there is a shadow of a pagan celebration there.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
Ours were technically "Ikea red" but they look kind of "bordeau gunky" to me
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
|
Posted
Looking ahead...
We are looking for a traditional language Candlemas liturgy which hasnt Eucharist in Evening. Choir may sing
Anyone able to point me to one or know of how itsdone?
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Since a major feature of the Candlemas liturgy is the Nunc Dimittis, it would seem an easy matter to incorporate the traditional procession etc into Evensong. See Common Worship: Times and Seasons pages 203/4. Some of the prayers are in 'you' form but if people have a problem with that it should be easy enough to tudorfy the language.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Can't seem to open that link as my machine is playing up, but could its seasonal features be slotted into a 'proper' (i.e. 1662) Evensong?
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
