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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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In recent years I've seen several high Anglican churches where the President sits in an imposing chair facing the congregation, between the choir stalls. Where has this practice come from? Instinctively I feel that while it may be appropriate for a Bishop it is OTT for a parish priest, but this is pure gut prejudice on my part.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
In recent years I've seen several high Anglican churches where the President sits in an imposing chair facing the congregation, between the choir stalls. Where has this practice come from? Instinctively I feel that while it may be appropriate for a Bishop it is OTT for a parish priest, but this is pure gut prejudice on my part.

Is this behind the altar? If so it's a fairly common arrangement, even extending to out here in presby land where the minister occupies a large, throne-like chair for services involving celebrating Holy Communion.
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Prester John
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Hoping for some help finding some prayers. In the new year I intend to get my children involved in agriculturally-oriented activities to make them more aware of God's blessings. Can anyone point me to some appropriately themed prayers? Thanks.
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Baptist Trainfan
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Is the Arthur Rank Centre of any help?
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Curiosity killed ...

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There are some environmental / stewardship prayers on the A Rocha site.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
In recent years I've seen several high Anglican churches where the President sits in an imposing chair facing the congregation, between the choir stalls. Where has this practice come from? Instinctively I feel that while it may be appropriate for a Bishop it is OTT for a parish priest, but this is pure gut prejudice on my part.

Is this behind the altar? If so it's a fairly common arrangement, even extending to out here in presby land where the minister occupies a large, throne-like chair for services involving celebrating Holy Communion.
No, this is in front of the altar, looking down at the congregation. As a result the celebrant becomes the focal point, which makes me uncomfortable no matter how much s/he is representing Christ.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Liturgylover
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
In recent years I've seen several high Anglican churches where the President sits in an imposing chair facing the congregation, between the choir stalls. Where has this practice come from? Instinctively I feel that while it may be appropriate for a Bishop it is OTT for a parish priest, but this is pure gut prejudice on my part.

Is this behind the altar? If so it's a fairly common arrangement, even extending to out here in presby land where the minister occupies a large, throne-like chair for services involving celebrating Holy Communion.
No, this is in front of the altar, looking down at the congregation. As a result the celebrant becomes the focal point, which makes me uncomfortable no matter how much s/he is representing Christ.
I can't think of a single example where this happens. Can you share the churches where you have seen this?
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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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Most recently I've seen it All Saints Ascot Heath (I hope this shows what I mean) but I have seen it in several other churches as well.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Zappa
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Not something I've ever seen, but it seems to me to be a lazy convenience without a theology

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Roselyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Most recently I've seen it All Saints Ascot Heath (I hope this shows what I mean) but I have seen it in several other churches as well.

Surely the congregation represents Christ as much as the presiding person does?
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Zappa
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turning your back on the place where heaven kisses earth is ugly ...

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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Offeiriad

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# 14031

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OK, I'll come clean and admit I've sat thus, occasionally - don't all shoot at once please!

I've ministered in lots of anglican gaffs which are over-blessed with furniture shall we say? ( Preaching to the lumber-yard is how an old friend described it!) Modern liturgy expects that the first half of the service be led by the celebrant at The Chair, but which chair and where? Bearing in mind that a disembodied voice from somewhere up near the altar is unedifying.....

Picture the scene, gentle Christian.... between altar and congregation you have a sanctuary with various seats, and maybe even a sedilia as well. Altar rail. Gap of four feet then chunky (but empty!) choir-stalls. There is a clergy stall among them of course, but if you are really unlucky it will be returned and backing on to a chancel screen.

Bang in front of the screen on the south side is a 7ft brass bird wearing a stole, with two steps up to reading height for the book on it's back. Matching it on the other side is a huge pulpit also approached by steps. Three feet in front of bird and pulpit the fixed pews begin. These don't stand on hard floor but on raised wooden platforms, with the heating system underneath. No, they don't move - they are fitted with Archdeacons to prevent this.

Oh, and every month the PCC (Parish Complaints Committee) meet to make sure you haven't changed anything. Of course you are in charge of the services Vicar - we're just here to make sure you don't move anything!

Now, where are you going to put the celebrant's chair? Let him who is without sin cast the first stone......

Happy New Year!
Glad to be retired!
Offeiriad

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Corvo
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Most recently I've seen it All Saints Ascot Heath (I hope this shows what I mean) but I have seen it in several other churches as well.

I has seen this in CofE churches which still have the altar up against the east wall. The alternative position for the celebrant would be the south side of the chancel or maybe a stall in the choir. From neither can he realy 'preside' in the visible way that is expected today. It's more usual however to set up sedilia in the crossing off centre from the choir.

[ 31. December 2014, 08:38: Message edited by: Corvo ]

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:

Happy New Year!
Glad to be retired!
Offeiriad

[Overused] [Smile]
Well said, Offeiriad! I concur in all respects.

The one sign of hope is that as congregations shrink and realise that their existence is in danger without radical action, they may realise that one important strategy might lie in re-ordering the building, both to enable meaningful worship and to create flexibility for other uses.

The liturgical arrangements here look fairly conventional, but the congregation have clearly accepted that the building is more than just a shrine for Sundays. This church, by contrast, has struggled with an over-large building and over-small congregation (mainly due to depopulation in the area, now reviving) for years. Through a renewal of the liturgy and community involvement, things are now looking up.

Richard Giles is not one of Ecclesiantics' heroes on the whole, but a grasping the nettle approach like his, rather than pussyfooting around, seems the only way of renewing vision. And for those who regret the disappearance of 'the old ways', well, unless you can guarantee to pack the church every Sunday for a traditional High Mass, people will always be reminded of failure and decay if they try to keep a leaking ship afloat.

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L'organist
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What is "meaningful worship" when its at home?

The CofE has been in a constant state of flux, either with the physical layout of churches or of its liturgy (or both) since for the past 50 years: none of it has shed much light, but it has achieved an alienation of many good and faithful people.

Leave churches alone. Look after the people you have. Maybe you'll find that that care rubs off onto others.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Angloid
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That's easier said than done, l'organist. There is nothing more dispiriting than gathering with a congregation of half a dozen in a church laid out for 200 and expecting the worship to be a transforming (rather than depressing) experience. Church buildings have been adapted time and time again throughout the centuries. There is nothing particularly holy about mid-Victorian liturgical furnishings, any more than Hymns Ancient and Modern (standard 1850-whenever edition) should be in general use today. And while the great Victorian architects left buildings and fittings which need to be used with respect, the average bog-standard Victorian church has bog-standard furniture which simply impedes worship and looks ugly.

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Bishops Finger
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Thank you, Angloid, for that Liverpool link! A similar church to ours, and if only, ah! if only - we could do something along those lines......

(I like some, though not all, of Richard Giles' ideas!).

BTW, having the priest lead the Ministry of the Word from a chair on the chancel step seems to me to be an eminently sensible way of doing things without clearing the choir-stalls etc. I've seen this done in a small Victorian church in Lancashire, where they still had a good-sized choir to occupy the said stalls. At the Peace, the chair was simply moved to one side for the rest of the Eucharist (celebrated ad orientem).

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Liturgylover
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Dispiriting maybe but a congregation of half a dozen is hardly the norm, and you are as likely to find small congregations using contemporary worship in modified spaces than those using traditional worship in unmodified ones.

Surely the churches that have most successfully adapated have made their buildings (not just their churches) available to the community during the week, including provision for mid-week worship, and have thought carefully about the balance between how to include families and newcomers and exisiting congregations.

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L'organist
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All churches are available to their community if they are open during the day. It is up to the worshippers to ensure that the community knows the building is open and then to engage with groups who may wish to use the building.

As for using a building designed to hold 200 for worship with a much smaller number: you can always move into other areas, such as side chapels, choir stalls, etc: you don't have to use the high altar and have people seated in the nave.

But if you're going to encourage this then you have to address the biggest hurdle many of us face, which is the heritage lobby which won't allow us to alter our buildings or adapt them to today's needs.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Angloid
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Horses for courses, l'Organist. Horses for courses.
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venbede
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I was a great enthusiast for reordering in my liturgical Anglo-Papalist days. But it depends on what is done.

The opposite of fussy, mannered and antiquarian Eastward facing liturgy is not awesome, austere, stylish and impressive liturgy involving the whole people of God. It is sentimental, infantilising, patronising communion services bereft of any sense of wonder, terror or sense that the only appropriate response to God’s gracious and unmerited love is total commitment.

The clergy are not necessarily to blame. That seems what the punters want.

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Jengie jon

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The problem is not what the punters want, but that we leave them thinking it is all we offer.

Where a person joins the church is not the place from which they should leave. This goes theological, liturgically and spiritually. If a person is not transformed by contact with the Church then we have failed.

We failed because in the end religion tries the impossible, that is to make sense out of chaos. In as far as we succeed we manage to communicate the unimaginable nature of God.

Jengie

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Bishops Finger
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Eastward-facing liturgy does not have to be fussy or antiquarian - depending, of course, on the topography of your church!

We (very occasionally) move our 'nave altar' to enable an ad orientem 1662 BCP celebration at our old High Altar (we have a very short chancel.....with no awkward choir stalls!). It works for us, but we do have the inestimable benefit of movable furnishings......

(I would love to shift our portable, if rather heavy, pews to allow an arrangement like that linked to by Angloid above....).

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

The opposite of fussy, mannered and antiquarian Eastward facing liturgy is not awesome, austere, stylish and impressive liturgy involving the whole people of God. It is sentimental, infantilising, patronising communion services bereft of any sense of wonder, terror or sense that the only appropriate response to God’s gracious and unmerited love is total commitment.

I couldn't agree more, if you mean the latter 'often appears as the opposite of fussy..etc.' This is usually because a congregation does not appreciate the importance of liturgy and simply follows a trend ('westward facing' rather than the Table in the midst of the assembly) which has only been half thought through. IME it is very easy to have a casual attitude to, and feel uninvolved with, a liturgy that is put on by 'experts' 'at the front' - whether that is a Tridentine High Mass or a jolly school-assembly-type parish communion. If the liturgy takes place in the midst of the assembly (on the lines of the St Dunstan's link I gave) its power and seriousness are unavoidable.

But when I said 'horses for courses', congregations each have their own character, and more practically, church buildings vary a great deal. 'Re-ordering' in many cases might mean a re-ordering of the liturgy and rethinking how the congregation might use a building which either for structural or 'heritage' reasons is difficult to adapt.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I have just watched last night's broadcast of midnight mass from Arundel RC Cathedral and noticed that they didn't genuflect during the incarnatus section of the creed but did so AFTERwards - a profund silence.


Is this a new ruling or just local custom?

Whichever, I like it.

At our place, half the congregation caught up with the rest of us when we were standing again. And it used to be like that back in the days when we used to genuflect every Sunday, not just Xmas and Lady Day.

Bump

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Adam.

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I've never heard of that. I explained the genuflection before the Creed and there was a nice wave of people (from front to back) attempting it.

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What is "meaningful worship" when its at home?

It's a fair question, perhaps, but probably about as answerable as "what is meaningful sport" or "what is meaningful art".

There probably isn't a litmus test, but vast combinations of litmus variants out of which we who are answerable for such matters must struggle (with the help of God's Spirit) to midwife a liturgical future.

I work on the premise that worship (including architecture and its applications) must convey the mysteries of the God who is involved in the vast cosmic narrative of Creation, Fall, Redemption, Consummation/Restoration, and convey that to three generations at a time. Christ you know it ain't easy, as Lennon said.

So I am constantly assessing: does this convey? What does it convey? Is there good news in this conveyance (for surely the narrative of God is Good News, always)?

My pad generates some challenges in this respect, and it will be up to each generation using it to assess how best to rise to those challenges. I'm not sure we've got it right but it is an evolving, changing thing as our understanding of the God we worship grows and we approach those changes in awe and, I hope, humility. Richard Giles has much to offer us here, but there will be many other visions incorporated into our assessments as we try to generate gospel-vehicle-worship for a changing world (and the vast monolith is not often that full ... more often like this, alas).

[ 01. January 2015, 17:41: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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Ceremoniar
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Happy New Year to all. The new civil year also means a new sundry liturgical thread, does it not? [Biased]
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Adam.

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Make decisions in Eccles based on civil calendar? Is outrage!

Last year, hosts waited till Feast of Baptism of Lord. Is Tradition™ now.

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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Make decisions in Eccles based on civil calendar? Is outrage!

Last year, hosts waited till Feast of Baptism of Lord. Is Tradition™ now.

No

Once is nice to do things differently
Twice is how things usually are done
Thrice is it is traditional
four times and dictat by the Pope/General Synod/ General Assembly/Conference or other religious authority
five is biblical
Six must be a rule of nature
Seven and it is time to change.

Jengie

[ 01. January 2015, 21:32: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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moonlitdoor
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I have two questions from my recent holiday in Malta. This first was in a church that I visited as a tourist when no service was taking place. The alter seemed to be on three levels. At the back was the highest with six candles on it, at the front the lowest where I think the bread and wine would be placed during the mass. But on the middle level was an object about four feet high, covered in material of the liturgical colour green. It looked rather like a very short priest wearing a chasuble and facing east. It was not possible to see what was within the material - does anyone know what it was ? I wondered if it could be something for holding the reserved sacraments, but previously I have only seen them held in a hole in the wall or hanging from the ceiling.

The second question was during the mass I attended at St John's cathedral in Valletta. Several priests were involved. When I have been at Anglican eucharists with more than one priest, one has administered the sacraments to the others. But in this case the main celebrant, after taking some himself, moved away to the side and the others came forward and took a wafer and dipped it in the chalice themselves. Is this the normal Catholic practice where more than one priest is present ?

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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Fr Weber
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I'm guessing the object you're talking about was a tabernacle, and that the green cloth was its veil. Some churches do have free-standing ones that aren't built into a wall. Did you notice a tabernacle elsewhere in the church?

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Forthview
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From the 1500s onwards until fairly modern times it has been customary to have the tabernacle (receptacle for holding the consecrated bread) in the centre of the High Altar. Tabernacle means small tent and recalls the tent in which the Ark of the Covenant was kept.In a Jewish synagogue there is in the sanctuary the Ark (occasionally called the tabernacle) covered with a veil.Inside are the Scrolls of the Law or the living word of God.
In a Catholic church the cupboard or receptacle contains the consecrated Hosts or the living presence of Christ.
Until Vatican 2 the tabernacle should be covered with a veil in the liturgical colour of the day.
If the tabernacle was sited in a wall there was usually just a small curtain in front of it.
In recent years it has no longer been mandatory to have the tabernacle veiled ,but you will still see it sometimes.However there should be a lamp burning before it ,as also in a synagogue.

With altars now mainly free standing the tabernacle can really be anywhere (in a place which encourages devotion).

In a concelebrated Mass the principal celebrant usually distributes a section of the Host to other
celebrants or they may take it from the paten.The concelebrants will then come forward to drink from
the Chalice before distributing Communion to other clergy,servers or lay people.

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

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Has anyone come across a tradition whereby the symbols and incense grains are removed from the Paschal case set the end of the Christmas season?

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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Roselyn
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# 17859

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Is it only Anglicans that don't like sitting in the front rows/pews?
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Albertus
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# 13356

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Mrs A, in her nonconformist days, would try to get to chapel early 'so she wouldn't end up sitting on the minister's knee'.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

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I once attended an ecumenical Maundy Thursday service in a Baptist church. I sat a few rows back and was the furthest forward...

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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Albertus
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# 13356

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Tho' perhaps those nice Baptists were trying to make you feel at home.

[ 03. February 2015, 22:20: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Back of Church Sunday.

Pretty par for the course, I would have thought.

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Roselyn
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# 17859

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Looks like it's not just Anglicans. Why do people huddle in the back pews, are they ashamed. scared, cold?? I am particularly interested in why they do this in wide, well lit rooms with doors at the side.
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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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At a guess, people don't want to be on show and they think that, if they sit near the front, everyone else will be looking at them.

As well the front seats are where you put invited guests at the service, or the wedding party at a wedding. So perhaps people feel instinctively that others will think they are putting themselves forward (into the high seats at the banquet, as it were) if they sit near the front.

(Unless the front seats are near the door to the nursery and SUnday School rooms, in which parents may frequently be seen in them.)

John

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Prester John
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# 5502

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quote:
Originally posted by Roselyn:
Looks like it's not just Anglicans. Why do people huddle in the back pews, are they ashamed. scared, cold?? I am particularly interested in why they do this in wide, well lit rooms with doors at the side.

Closer to the coffee in the back, easier to slip out to your car in the parking lot or maybe hoping to be less conspicuous if/when falling asleep. Those are three that readily spring to mind.
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Garasu
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# 17152

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Greater chance of getting picked on by the teacher if you sit in the 'inverted T'...

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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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Just out of curiosity, what do the denizens of Ecclesiantics think to the decision we made here to melt down the remains of our 2013 Paschal candle and use the wax to make baptismal candles? Pleasing symbolism? Sacrilege? Good stewardship of resources?
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Our church has a fairly high, central pulpit. People say that they get a crick in their necks if they sit too close to the front, downstairs. (We also have a gallery, where a few folk like to sit).

I did once see a lovely cartoon of a church where all the pews were mounted on a "travolator" system. At the start of the service someone pressed a button, and all the pews moved forward ...

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Just out of curiosity, what do the denizens of Ecclesiantics think to the decision we made here to melt down the remains of our 2013 Paschal candle and use the wax to make baptismal candles? Pleasing symbolism? Sacrilege? Good stewardship of resources?

It's all in the motivation. What did you mean by it? That's what it meant.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Liturgylover
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# 15711

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"Style of Worship: Modern Catholic"

What type of liturgy would you expect to find at a CofE church thus described? I ask following a discussion with someone when it became clear that it meant two completely different things to us both!

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Albertus
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# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by Roselyn:
Looks like it's not just Anglicans. Why do people huddle in the back pews, are they ashamed. scared, cold?? I am particularly interested in why they do this in wide, well lit rooms with doors at the side.

I've heard a theory that in the days of pew rents (don't know whether these existed outside the CofE)the cheaper/ free seats were at the back, so people tended to sit there. Don't know whether this is true or not.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Joan_of_Quark

Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887

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A question about CofE offices - does anyone know why portions of Psalm 119 seem to show up more often on Wednesdays than other days of the week?

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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

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quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
A question about CofE offices - does anyone know why portions of Psalm 119 seem to show up more often on Wednesdays than other days of the week?

It doesn't seem, it is so. In the ordinary time cycle the psalms are gone through over 7 weeks. Ps 119 is split into 7 and occurs alternately on Wed MP and Wed EP. I keep 2 makers in the psalms one for the general cycle and one for 119.

Carys

--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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