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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
"Style of Worship: Modern Catholic"
What type of liturgy would you expect to find at a CofE church thus described? I ask following a discussion with someone when it became clear that it meant two completely different things to us both!
Depends who is using the term.
Among anglo-catholics it differentiates from those who use old liturgies and celebrate eastward-facing. That means they will worship in a post-vatican 2 style, using either the 'novus ordo' Roman rite or Common Worship modern language.
Among 'official' C of E publicarions such as parish profiles when advertising for a new pries, the term is likely to mean affirming catholic supporting ordained women - differentiating them from 'traditional catholic' meaning Forward in Faith with flying bishops.
[ 04. February 2015, 13:29: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
A question about CofE offices - does anyone know why portions of Psalm 119 seem to show up more often on Wednesdays than other days of the week?
I don't know what was in the minds of the Common Worship editors, but I imagine it has something to do with the fact that 119 has traditionally been the psalm used at the 'lesser hours' of Prime, Terce, Sext etc, which have generally been condensed into one Midday Office, as used by most religious communities. So if you are not saying a midday office, you use the midday psalm as a midweek one instead.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's all in the motivation. What did you mean by it? That's what it meant.
Possibly. My motivation was what to do with an oversized Paschal candle that hadn't been burned down very far. I did think that there was a nice symbolism in not only lighting the baptismal candle from the paschal candle but making it from one. I have no desire, however, to cause a stumbling block to others so though I would ask and see what others made of the idea.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Having 119 every morning and evening for several consecutive days would be very boring - I never used the BCP psalms. 119 is pretty repetetive.
So they've put 119 on Wednesdays, alternatively in mornings and evenings.
CW also makes sure psalms specific to morning (ie 5) are in the morning and psalms specific to evenings (ie 4) are in evenings.
I'm pissed off that the Lauds psalms (148, 159 & 150) roll up on Saturday evenings when they could be assigned to the morning earlier in the week where they belong.
Aso a pity 110, the Vesper psalm above all, crops up on a morning.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
My motivation was what to do with an oversized Paschal candle that hadn't been burned down very far.
Seems a perfectly fitting use for it, so long as the baptismal candles that got made are fit for purpose. The only danger to guard against is if you run out of those, and those are seen as somehow holier than other ones.
We return the remnants of our paschal candle to the candle company who give us a rebate and use it the wax to make more candles. Does your supplier not offer this? If they do, then on the one hand there's something nice about dealing with it in house, but only if you're good enough at making candles that the end result is good.
(Sorry for two cautions about this: in my novitiate, we had a religious brother who thought he was much better than he was at making candles. It caused the sacristans no end of trouble.)
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
You know, it never occurred to me that it was possible to botch up making candles, having first done it as an 8 year old. I think we could make 20 or so from the one candle and given we get 1-2 baptisms a year I don't think running out would be an issue, not that the Presbyterians and Baptists locally are keen on considering any object "holy" anyway.
It also didn't occur to me to check with the supplier about recycling, but then I suspect with the shipping cost it wouldn't be worthwhile.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It also didn't occur to me to check with the supplier about recycling, but then I suspect with the shipping cost it wouldn't be worthwhile.
We always ship back our previous year's Paschal candle. The shipping costs are usually within a dollar of what we get as a credit for next year's candle, but it's a good thing to do environmentally.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Having 119 every morning and evening for several consecutive days would be very boring - I never used the BCP psalms. 119 is pretty repetetive. ...
That may be part of the point. There are a series of significant words that are repeated all the way through it, usually once in each eight verse block.
Changing the subject to making baptismal candles out of the unburnt remnants of the previous year's Paschal candle, if one has the skills, that strikes me as a really brilliant idea.
I'm sure there can't be anything wrong with doing it. The candles are lit from this year's one anyway. No candles have been transubstantiated in the making of either. I'd say go for it.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I use the old BCP monthly rota for the Psalms. It helpfully splits Ps 119 up over several days. The downside is that I always dread the 15th day of the month, when at Evening Prayer I have to read Ps 78, the 72-verse behemoth.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Still no new thread for the new year? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm attached to the old one. It's familiar and worn in, like that pair of comfy jeans I wear under my cassock when I'm feeling lazy.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I use the old BCP monthly rota for the Psalms. It helpfully splits Ps 119 up over several days. The downside is that I always dread the 15th day of the month, when at Evening Prayer I have to read Ps 78, the 72-verse behemoth.
I recall hearing an anecdote of a 19th century judge who, having sentenced some ne'er do well for a minor crime (probably being poor, or wanting a job, or something dreadful like that) who gave the felon two pieces of advice.
One was to buck up and get his act together.
The other was never to Evening Prayer on the 15th of the month.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I use the old BCP monthly rota for the Psalms. It helpfully splits Ps 119 up over several days. The downside is that I always dread the 15th day of the month, when at Evening Prayer I have to read Ps 78, the 72-verse behemoth.
When preparing to take our choir over to St Mary's Cathedral, Edinburgh, for a week's summer residence, our choirmaster received this in reply to his submitted list of anthems, psalm settings, etc.: "Aug. 15...Ps. 78, all verses??????"
There were at least that many question marks. I believe our choirmaster's reply was, "Yes."
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Beadwork on stoles - acceptable or unacceptable?
I have been asked to make an ordination stole for a friend, and she has settled on a Tudor cross made out of antique liturgical silk fused to a red linen stole. The cross is beautiful, but needs an edging to define it. She is a lady who likes a bit of bling and I have encouraged her to wear only subtle jewellery for the big day. But I was thinking that instead of a metallic thread edging around the cross, (I am not good at metallic threadwork) I could pick it out with a tiny row of red/gold seed beads. What say the experts?
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Your plans for the stole sound lovely - go with them and I hope your friend appreciates the time and talent invested therein!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I like the idea of making baptismal candles out of the previous year's Paschal Candle.
While we're on the Paschal Candle, my query on the bottom of the last page has been missed. (admittedly the original had a couple of swypo's which I've corrected below)
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Has anyone come across a tradition whereby the symbols and incense grains are removed from the Paschal candle at the end of the Christmas season leaving it bare from then until the new one is blessed?
Carys
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
When preparing to take our choir over to St Mary's Cathedral, Edinburgh, for a week's summer residence, our choirmaster received this in reply to his submitted list of anthems, psalm settings, etc.: "Aug. 15...Ps. 78, all verses??????"
Clearly not the Church of Scotland, then, with their Metrical Psalms, where I have heard ministers announce (e.g.): "Let up be upstanding and singing Psalm 78, verses 1 to 12, 19 to 26, and 42 to 47, to the tune 186". Clearly the Presbyterians are good at paying attention! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
[ 13. February 2015, 13:25: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
And you resisted the temptation to shout 'House!'
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Actually, it never occurred to me (I was young and serious in those days!) ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I like the idea of making baptismal candles out of the previous year's Paschal Candle.
While we're on the Paschal Candle, my query on the bottom of the last page has been missed. (admittedly the original had a couple of swypo's which I've corrected below)
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Has anyone come across a tradition whereby the symbols and incense grains are removed from the Paschal candle at the end of the Christmas season leaving it bare from then until the new one is blessed?
Carys
Carys
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ??? What on earth would be the justification for this? I've heard of some benighted places where the Paschal Candle is extinguished at Pentecost (or even on Ascension Day) and then hidden in a cupboard for the rest of the year. But the symbolism of the candle is surely that it represents the Risen Christ with, and leading, his people 'through all the times and ages', and especially the current year.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Thank you Angloid. Summed up beautifully.
Carys : your place is seriously at fault if they denude the paschal candle like that. It should stay as it is, usually by the font so that it is handy for baptisms, and only be removed just before the lighting of the new fire on the next Easter Eve.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Thank you Angloid. Summed up beautifully.
Carys : your place is seriously at fault if they denude the paschal candle like that. It should stay as it is, usually by the font so that it is handy for baptisms, and only be removed just before the lighting of the new fire on the next Easter Eve.
Surely it should be removed during the stripping of the altars on Maundy Thursday. It's also used, of course, at funerals, where it should stand at the foot of the coffin.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Remembering, of course, that the custom of using the paschal candle at funerals and baptisms is entirely of modern origin, beginning c. 1970. Prior to that it was indeed retired after Ascension or Pentecost. Hardly "benighted."
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Remembering, of course, that the custom of using the paschal candle at funerals and baptisms is entirely of modern origin, beginning c. 1970. Prior to that it was indeed retired after Ascension or Pentecost. Hardly "benighted."
A little investigation (ok, Google) reveals that in England it was the tradition to melt down the paschal candle and make tapers to be lit at the funerals of the poor:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11515b.htm
I also note from the same text that folk at Salisbury didn't do things by halves. I wouldn't want to be the one lifting 36ft of candle into the air 3 times to chant "the light of Christ"! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Remembering, of course, that the custom of using the paschal candle at funerals and baptisms is entirely of modern origin, beginning c. 1970. Prior to that it was indeed retired after Ascension or Pentecost. Hardly "benighted."
Indeed. It was one of the best and most significant changes in post Vatican II liturgy.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Thank you Angloid. Summed up beautifully.
Carys : your place is seriously at fault if they denude the paschal candle like that. It should stay as it is, usually by the font so that it is handy for baptisms, and only be removed just before the lighting of the new fire on the next Easter Eve.
Surely it should be removed during the stripping of the altars on Maundy Thursday.
I am not sure about the 'should' but I always remove it when the altars are stripped and replace the candlestick when getting the church ready for the Easter Vigil.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Thank you Angloid. Summed up beautifully.
Carys : your place is seriously at fault if they denude the paschal candle like that. It should stay as it is, usually by the font so that it is handy for baptisms, and only be removed just before the lighting of the new fire on the next Easter Eve.
That was my understanding but someone did this without word to anyone somewhere I know prior to a funeral because an old church of theirs had done it. It was pastorally insensitive to say the least so I wondered if it was more than the foible of one priest somewhere... but idiosyncrisy is the conclusion I'm coming too. Thankfully it was restored for the funeral.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Thank you Angloid. Summed up beautifully.
Carys : your place is seriously at fault if they denude the paschal candle like that. It should stay as it is, usually by the font so that it is handy for baptisms, and only be removed just before the lighting of the new fire on the next Easter Eve.
Surely it should be removed during the stripping of the altars on Maundy Thursday. It's also used, of course, at funerals, where it should stand at the foot of the coffin.
Though I often think that, while this is correct, it must cause some confusion to punters whose loved one died in for example pre-Easter 2015, if they are not frequenters of church or Ecclesiantics (poor misguided souls) to have him/her dispatched to the hereafter beneath last year's date.
In fact it can begin to look like a metaphor for the Church somnambulant: tired and has been.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Interesting. This had never occurred to me. Do you ever refer to the Paschal candle during funeral preaching? For some reason, I always talk about it before a baptism, but rarely during a funeral.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
We had our local Area (Suffragan) Bishop celebrating our Ash Wednesday Eucharist last night (and very lovely it was too).
He was without his Episcopal Ring throughout.
1) Is this some Ash Wednesday tradition of which I was hitherto unaware? I quite realise the most likely answer is that it's being repaired, he's lost it, or he forgot to put it on yesterday morning, but I thought I'd check!
2) If a Bishop is blessing sans ring, should he use the "priestly" hand position (whole hand) or the "bishoppy" hand position (fore and middle finger extended, other two fingers down)?
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am not sure about the 'should' but I always remove it when the altars are stripped and replace the candlestick when getting the church ready for the Easter Vigil.
Our paschal candlestick is particularly splendid, golden and ornate, so I remove it along with some of the other ornaments whilst what passes for our Lenten array is up. It's brought out only for baptisms and funerals in Lent.
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Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
If you're holding a Eucharist for a special occasion on a Sunday evening, do the intercessions follow the usual pray for the world, church, each other, saints format or should the intercessions be more tailored for the occasion considering the larger intercessions would have been covered in the Sunday morning Eucharist?
#Anglicanliturgy
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
Whilst browsing Google Books, I came across a article from 1913 discussing the reform of the Roman Breviary by Pius X. A curious excerpt follows:
quote:
For the laity at large, as already noted, the most interesting feature in the new programme is the privileged position now accorded to the Office and Mass of the ordinary Sundays of the year. Speaking generally, it may be said that in future the Sunday will only be displaced by feasts of high rank, one practical consequence of which will be that henceforth the epistle and Gospel read to the congregation from the pulpit will rarely be in disagreement with the epistle and Gospel of the Mass read at the altar, an anomaly which in recent years must often have jarred upon those possessing any sense of the liturgical fitness of things.
The anomaly does indeed seem jarring to me. But how did this odd situation come about in the first place? Does this mean that if the Nth Sunday after Pentecost was pushed away by the Feast of St. N, the priest would celebrate the first half of the Mass of St. N, preach a sermon about the readings for the Nth Sunday after Pentecost, and then resume the Mass of St. N? And was this required, or only permitted?
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
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Conrad Noel
Apprentice
# 18352
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Posted
I was asked the other day about liturgical change in Anglican cathedrals. I am very out of date and couldn't give a good answer.
Are there any Anglican cathedrals where the old High Altar is use exclusively for the sung/choral Eucharist on Sundays and there are no new altars and choir stalls on the nave-side of the choir screen ? In other words, are there any cathedrals which look and work as they did in the late 1950s/1960s ?
Canterbury has a complete division between the nave and quire, due to a long flight of steps and the pulpitum screen. The quire is much as it was in the 1960s, although the high altar has been brought down to the platform in the middle of the long flight of steps from the quire to the Trinity chapel where the shrine of St Thomas Becket once stood. This position is the original siting of the altar, and the position at the top of the steps was a Victorian invention.
In terms of Sunday Eucharists, the 8am BCP is celebrated facing East, and the Sung 11 am is celebrated facing West. In the summer, and on principle feast days, the nave is used, where there is an altar.
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Conrad
Posts: 1 | From: Canterbury | Registered: Feb 2015
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Unless things have changed very recently, Chichester, a small cathedral, has a massive choir screen but no altar in front of it. For the Liturgy of the Word on Sundays the ministers are positioned in front of it, then after the Peace they go to the High Altar, which is fairly modern and free standing, and take up a westward facing position. I don't think that would work in a larger building unless there was enough room in the Quire for the whole congregation.
Although Liverpool, which is vast, sometimes use the High Altar (I think in Advent) with the congregation stranded in outer space. Though there is no screen to block the view.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Our cathedral has this. You can tell by the description that they are very proud of it, but it always gives me the feeling that an inadvertent priest with full sleeves has only got to do a liturgical flourish and the precious body and blood will be scattered in all directions.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Please could someone tell me what is the opposite/negative of the verb "to vest" (ie put on vestments)?
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The word 'divest' exists. It does though tend to be used of removing all garments.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Divest?
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Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Unless things have changed very recently, Chichester, a small cathedral, has a massive choir screen but no altar in front of it. For the Liturgy of the Word on Sundays the ministers are positioned in front of it, then after the Peace they go to the High Altar, which is fairly modern and free standing, and take up a westward facing position. I don't think that would work in a larger building unless there was enough room in the Quire for the whole congregation
The same happens at Derby (or at least it did until recently), but that's another small cathedral.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Pronunciation?
Die-vest
Dee-vest
Divvest
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
The first, I think. But don't ask me: I'm not even sure it's the right word.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
"Un-vest" tends to be what I hear in casual conversation.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Conrad Noel:
I was asked the other day about liturgical change in Anglican cathedrals. I am very out of date and couldn't give a good answer.
Are there any Anglican cathedrals where the old High Altar is use exclusively for the sung/choral Eucharist on Sundays and there are no new altars and choir stalls on the nave-side of the choir screen ? In other words, are there any cathedrals which look and work as they did in the late 1950s/1960s ?
The SEC Cathedral in Oban has no screen and only uses the high altar, but it is only just over 100 years old and somewhat eccentric in any case.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Is there a certain time of day at which the Good Friday liturgy is supposed to be observed? Is it by tradition, or by rubric?
(Reason being: My friend and I got into an argument about whether it was okay to have the regular Good Friday liturgy in the evening, or whether it must be held about noon.)
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
In the RCC, the Good Friday liturgy is supposed to be celebrated around 3PM, but "if pastoral circumstances suggest..." (I'm not a fan of that expression, as it ends up getting twisted to justify just about anything), it may be celebrated anytime between noon and early evening. It may not be celebrated in the morning.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In traditionally Catholic countries Good Friday is not usually a public holiday.This has been the case since the 1600s.It was originally to stop people doing the things they normally do on public holidays,like going drinking and carousing.
Thus in Germany with a good number of areas of Protestant culture Good Friday is still a holiday all over.In neighbouring Austria which is mainly an area of traditional Catholic culture Good Friday is not a public holiday.In these areas the Good Friday liturgy will more often take place at the end of the working day starting some time after 5pm
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
At my current parish we do the Good Friday liturgy timed to conclude about 3pm, and then do Taize prayer in the evening (with a very crucicentric focus) so as people who couldn't get off work can still gather for prayer. A former parish of mine took the opposite approach: Stations of the Cross followed by confessions at the traditional hour, and then the liturgy in the evening.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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