homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » Sundry liturgical questions (Page 16)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  ...  37  38  39 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
[qb] Roman Catholic office which always, daily, had the Venite as the 'invitorium' for the first office of the day - and still does.

Benedeictus and Magnificat are also said daily.

A seasonal tag, "eg "The Lord is truly risen, alleluia" today, alternates with the verses of the Venite. This was also a possibility in the 1928 BCP.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Adam.

Like as the
# 4991

 - Posted      Profile for Adam.   Author's homepage   Email Adam.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
A friend has asked if I will take a wedding for some mates of his. They want a Christian service, but not in church. You can get married in all sorts of places by a registrar; are there limits on where a priest can conduct a service?

We have to get the bishop's permission to do a wedding outside of a church. There's a list of places for which that permission is basically pro forma and then anywhere else you genuinely have to ask, and be prepared to be told no. All of the pro forma-ish ones are clearly Christian (eg. an ecumenical military chapel).

--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454

 - Posted      Profile for Zacchaeus   Email Zacchaeus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Basicaly a CofE priest can only conduct weddings in a CofE church (with the expeption of special permission for places like hospitals.)

Secular venues are only to gave secular services with no religious content.

Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
To have a CofE wedding anywhere other than in a parish church that the couple have the requisite connection with requires a Special Licence. This is not from the diocese but from the Archbishop of Canterbury. They aren't a right and I believe are very rarely given for anything other than,
- for a wedding in an ordinary church the couple are connected with but don't satisfy the residence requirements (this should be much rarer now the ordinary rules have been relaxed).
- for a wedding in an ecclesiastical building not normally authorised for weddings (e.g. a college chapel).
- for a wedding in a hospital bed.

I suspect the prospect of persuading anyone to give one a Special Licence for a wedding in a hotel or some scenic open air location is so close to nil as not to be worth pursuing.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

 - Posted      Profile for Fr Weber   Email Fr Weber   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
[qb] Roman Catholic office which always, daily, had the Venite as the 'invitorium' for the first office of the day - and still does.

Benedeictus and Magnificat are also said daily.

A seasonal tag, "eg "The Lord is truly risen, alleluia" today, alternates with the verses of the Venite. This was also a possibility in the 1928 BCP.
In the US 1928, it doesn't alternate with the verses, but is sung as an antiphon before the Venite (to the same tune).

--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If a wedding is a sacrament, the minister of the sacrament are the couple. Why do they need a Christian minister other than a witness and president at a nuptial mass?

If a wedding is signing a property covenant, (which it is at a minimum and a far greater recognition of that would be welcome) then why do you need a Christian minister at all?

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If a wedding is a sacrament, the minister of the sacrament are the couple. Why do they need a Christian minister other than a witness and president at a nuptial mass?

If a wedding is signing a property covenant, (which it is at a minimum and a far greater recognition of that would be welcome) then why do you need a Christian minister at all?

I agree, but I believe in the CoE's case it has to do with clergy being registrars? I think also possibly to do with the very tight rules about places licensed for civil weddings.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

 - Posted      Profile for Forthview   Email Forthview   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As far as RCs are concerned the presence of the priest is to help ascertain that the couple are meaning to do what the Church understands by the sacrament.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A lot of the English rules on marriage are designed to prevent clandestine or secret marriages, to make deception and bigamy more difficult and to avoid the uncertainty that existed in the past as to who was really married to whom.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596

 - Posted      Profile for Knopwood   Email Knopwood   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
As far as RCs are concerned the presence of the priest is to help ascertain that the couple are meaning to do what the Church understands by the sacrament.

And of course the Code of Canon Law allows for marriage by the simple exchange of vows before a lay witness if either or both of the parties is in danger of death, or if the unavailability of any priest or deacon is expected to continue for a month or more.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You do not need a minister. The practice of having weddings in church was actually fairly late and due to the requirement to have the wedding in the church grounds (irc church porch) so that it was visible to the whole community. In other words about public space rather than sacred space.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Bear in mind that I know nothing of English marriage laws, or C of E canon law. Would it be possible for your mate's friends to have a registry office wedding, which will cover the legal requirements, and then that you conduct a service of blessing the couple in the place of their choosing? In effect what happens in many countries, even though the religious ceremony is usually called a wedding also, not a blessing.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

 - Posted      Profile for Robert Armin     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Many thanks for all the suggestions. Will get back to my mate and see what develops.

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

- for a wedding in an ecclesiastical building not normally authorised for weddings (e.g. a college chapel).

Is it common for college chapels not to be authorised for weddings? I was married in the Anglican & Free Church Chapel while at university and I just had to get banns read as normal.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Is it common for college chapels not to be authorised for weddings? I was married in the Anglican & Free Church Chapel while at university and I just had to get banns read as normal.

I know mine wasn't (friends were married by special licence there), and I didn't think it was that unusual.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
american piskie
Shipmate
# 593

 - Posted      Profile for american piskie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think very few of the Oxford College Chapels are licensed for weddings. I stumped up the necessary fee for a Special Licence from the Legate sorry Archbishop of Canterbury to see my daughter married in one.

Christ Church of course must be licensed being the cathedral; and I don't know if Merton is still allowed to masquerade as the Parish Church of St John.

Saturdays in summer are quite fun, as the parish registers of the city churches are hurried from one college chapel to another.

Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have a feeling, but may be completely wrong, that one might need an Archbishop's Licence to be married in a cathedral, and that the reason may be that most cathedrals don't have a parish. In which case, it's also possible that if a cathedral has got a parish, then one can get married there.

Is there a shipmate out there that actually knows?

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Actually most of our cathedrals are also parish churches - perhaps something we inherited from the time when bishoprics were done away with? - and they function as all other parishes.

For example, if you live within the parish of St Albans Abbey then you can get married there, have your children baptised there, etc. Chichester and Hereford cathedrals also have frequent weddings of people who qualify by virtue of living within the cathedral's parish.

Of course, arranging a wedding in a cathedral where there are other considerations may require greater flexibility about day and time. But you get married by banns same as in any other church.

As for an Archbishop's Licence: these are extremely rare and take a great deal of organisation to obtain. Most people who get married by licence have either a registrar's licence or a surrogate's licence.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
american piskie
Shipmate
# 593

 - Posted      Profile for american piskie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I have a feeling, but may be completely wrong, that one might need an Archbishop's Licence to be married in a cathedral, and that the reason may be that most cathedrals don't have a parish. In which case, it's also possible that if a cathedral has got a parish, then one can get married there.

Is there a shipmate out there that actually knows?

I think one has a right to get married in the Cathedral in Oxford if one lives within "the peculiar place of the House of Christ in Oxford" -- I hope I have got that right, someone who was so married once told me what the banns said, but that was some years ago!
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually most of our cathedrals are also parish churches - perhaps something we inherited from the time when bishoprics were done away with? - and they function as all other parishes.

I always thought that there were 'parish church cathedrals' (largely, though perhaps not exclusively, former town parish churches upgraded), and the rest - the majority of medieval foundations. The former used to be distinguished by having a Provost instead of a Dean.

I don't know the legal position, but I would guess that the non-parochial cathedrals had nonetheless a sort of quasi-parish in the cathedral close, with similar rights for its residents. But they are not parochial in the normal sense. However, I'd have thought that regular worshippers in the cathedral would be entitled to be married there, as are regular worshippers in any church even if they live outside the parish.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
american piskie
Shipmate
# 593

 - Posted      Profile for american piskie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:


[del]

As for an Archbishop's Licence: these are extremely rare and take a great deal of organisation to obtain. Most people who get married by licence have either a registrar's licence or a surrogate's licence.

"Not very common" at most! I've seen umpteen. I don't think that they need much organisation to obtain: just a question of filling in the forms, and getting the vicars of the happy couple's parishes to sign it off. But the ABC's licence lets one do things the others don't, so they are not interchangeable.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
posted by american piskie
quote:
I think one has a right to get married in the Cathedral in Oxford if one lives within "the peculiar place of the House of Christ in Oxford" -- I hope I have got that right, someone who was so married once told me what the banns said, but that was some years ago!
What it means is that anyone who is a member (graduate or undergraduate) of Christ Church, Oxford, is entitled to get married in the college chapel - which is the cathedral for the diocese of Oxford.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I have a feeling, but may be completely wrong, that one might need an Archbishop's Licence to be married in a cathedral, and that the reason may be that most cathedrals don't have a parish. In which case, it's also possible that if a cathedral has got a parish, then one can get married there.

Is there a shipmate out there that actually knows?

I was once told by a Canon Precentor about a clergyman from the Diocese who wished to marry his intended in the Cathedral. Neither he nor his intended lived in the Cathedral's parochial area and so he applied for an Archbishops Licence. He was told that he hadn't been able to demonstrate an adequate link to the Cathedral. The Canon Precentor picked up the phone to the relevant office and asked "which part of he was ordained in the Cathedral and is a member of the Diocesan clergy in good standing escaped you". I understand that the wedding was a most happy occasion.

Archbishops Licences are strange and wonderful things. AIUI, once upon a time they were nodded through with a muttered "whatevs", then there was some kind of reform and it got really stringent. Subsequently it got a bit more sensible.

The three I was involved with, at various times, went through without fuss - on one occasion I was fixing someone else's mess and the couple had done all the right things but the banns had not been called, on another the vagaries of the parish system was working with the maximum unfairness (nowadays they would have got in with a qualifying connection), the third was a rather complicated business with a gypsy wedding - I advised them to have a discreet civil ceremony followed by a blessing in church, but apparently only I would do as registrar and to my surprise and delight the office came through with the licence. It was one of the two occasions on which I was kissed by the bride at the end of the ceremony!

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
When I was a pastoral assistant in the early 90s my Vicar was involved in trying to get an Archbishop's Licenec for some reason or another, and had great difficulty in persuading the relevant official (actually I think only a paralegal) at whatever firm of solicitors handled these things to issue one. Then the official asked "wait a minute, isn't that the parish where Albertus's Realname is?" and became much more co-operative- turned out to be a friend of a friend!
Not really the way things should work, though.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245

 - Posted      Profile for Emendator Liturgia   Author's homepage   Email Emendator Liturgia   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Having read about the legalistic machinery involved in ol' mother CofE, I'm glad that out here in the Antipodes we've streamlined things, especially with regards to Banns (never heard any for the last 40 years or so, though they are still optional). Also, there is no requirement to be resident in an area or have defined attachment to a church - couples do 'rock up' and ask to be married there because they like the look of the place, or the gardens are beautiful, or they know one of the resident clergy and want him/her to marry them. We also have occasions when people use our churches who are from other traditions and don't have the facilities for a wedding, even bringing their own clergy with them.

While clergy who are authorized to conduct wedding ceremonies are supposed to perform such services in a church building, this is in many cases a requirement more often observed in the breach. Many of my clerical associates have conducted weddings in parks, in 'wedding chapels' attached to function centres, hotels, etc. None of these ceremonies are anything like 'liturgy-lite' with full authorized liturgies from AAPB or APBA (the national Prayer Books). Many of us give serious attention to the preparation of the couple, with pre-wedding discussions over 4-6 sessions.

[ 15. April 2015, 22:24: Message edited by: Emendator Liturgia ]

--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!

Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas Aus   Email Barnabas Aus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Indeed EL. Our daughter was married last year. Originally due to be a botanical garden wedding it was moved to a surf clubhouse due to rain. The ceremony was the full liturgy according to APBA, conducted by our dear friend who has known her since she was but a toddler. While we would have loved a church wedding, her husband is still smarting from some callous clergy behaviour during his late mother's terminal illness.
Posts: 375 | From: Hunter Valley NSW | Registered: Sep 2010  |  IP: Logged
Barefoot Friar

Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100

 - Posted      Profile for Barefoot Friar   Email Barefoot Friar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
May I continue to burn our Paschal candle every Sunday after Pentecost? We got the smallest one we could find but it is still huge, and it seems a waste to leave so much of it unburned. I don't expect many baptisms or funerals between now and next Easter.

--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Same with us, but we recycle the old paschal candle by removing the decorative bits and sawing it into six-inch long sections for use at various shrines around the church!

Wot? No shrines? Oh............

Ian J.

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Can you wrap it carefully up in paper (and hopefully you kept the original shipping box) and reuse it next year? Or whenever a wedding or funeral turns up.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294

 - Posted      Profile for georgiaboy   Email georgiaboy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Here state-side wedding rules are not quite (read not nearly) so stringent, but they do vary from state to state, esp regarding such items as where and when one may get a license, what (if any) medical tests are required, etc.

In one state where I lived, clergy were required to have posted a bond with the county clerk (AIUI), which once done, was good for life throughout the state. This caused a problem once in our parish, as the asst set to officiate at the wedding had not yet posted his bond, and no other priest was available on short notice. The couple scooted across the state line to be married by a JP, and got back in time for a 'blessing of the marriage' with no-one the wiser, except those with sharp ears at the changes in the words!

--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.

Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Can you wrap it carefully up in paper (and hopefully you kept the original shipping box) and reuse it next year? Or whenever a wedding or funeral turns up.

It will be marked with the year so it can't be simply re-used.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The information about the year is usually applied as a pre-printed design - a bit like the 'tattoos' you could buy in my childhood!

If it is that type then it can be removed, as follows:
  • very carefully, and using wadded towelling between the jaws and the candle, place the candle in a bench-mounted vice
  • take an old palette knife and heat the blade
  • slowly and carefully slide the heated blade between the candle and the transfer
  • continue to re-heat the blade and slide until you have removed the whole thing
  • smooth over the surface of the now undecorated candle before wrapping in tissue and storing in a cool place

Good luck!

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Adam.

Like as the
# 4991

 - Posted      Profile for Adam.   Author's homepage   Email Adam.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At the end of Lent, we do this to remove the year from our paschal candle and put in our daily Mass chapel for the Easter season (getting a new one for the main church each year). We found that our numbers were actually pinned on, so needed a pair of pliers to get the pins out.

--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294

 - Posted      Profile for georgiaboy   Email georgiaboy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A couple of questions about 'hands,' based on recent observations at the monastery where I'm currently employed:

1. During the Eucharistic Prayer, the concelebrating priests raise their hands, presumably imitating the celebrant's 'orans' position. However, I observe priests making these gestures:
  • 'I caught a fish this big!'
  • 'Don't shoot!'
  • 'I think it's raining.'
  • 'Black power!' (fists in the air)
  • 'Buddy, can you spare a dime.'
The celebrant is doing it right, most of the con-cels are not copying his posture!

2. The various gestures are repeated during the Our Father, the lay brothers now joining in. I thought I remembered from long-ago liturgical studies that the 'orans' was something only the celebrant did. So what's going on?

3. We frequently have groups of visitors. Many of them indulge in hand-holding during the Our Father. What's with this?

If this is allowed by GIRM or whatever, okay. But it looks bizarre!

--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.

Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

 - Posted      Profile for Fr Weber   Email Fr Weber   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
1. Every time I see someone approximate orans with palms up I want to yell "Cut that shit out, this isn't Calvary Chapel!"

2. A lot of stuff creeps in as mimicry. Out here it seems very common for people to echo the celebrant's manual actions at the Sursum corda, especially in Latino congregations.

3. I don't know if the GIRM expressly forbids hand-holding, but I don't think it's contemplated, and by a strict reading of the rubrics I don't believe it's allowed.

--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hand-holding at the Our Father? [Projectile]
Sounds horribly twee.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually most of our cathedrals are also parish churches - perhaps something we inherited from the time when bishoprics were done away with? - and they function as all other parishes.

For example, if you live within the parish of St Albans Abbey then you can get married there, have your children baptised there, etc. Chichester and Hereford cathedrals also have frequent weddings of people who qualify by virtue of living within the cathedral's parish.

Of course, arranging a wedding in a cathedral where there are other considerations may require greater flexibility about day and time. But you get married by banns same as in any other church.

As for an Archbishop's Licence: these are extremely rare and take a great deal of organisation to obtain. Most people who get married by licence have either a registrar's licence or a surrogate's licence.

The licence issued either by the diocesan registrar or by a surrogate is a Common Licence. The other kind of licence is an Archbishop's Special Licence, issued where applicants
quote:
have a genuine and longstanding demonstrable link to the church building (and its congregation/worshipping community) where they wish to be married, which is sufficiently strong to justify the issue of a Licence. As part of this, applicants for a Special Licence will usually need to show a worshipping connection, over a period of time, with the church where they hope to marry. [link]
The following are cathedrals with parishes:
  • Newcastle,
  • Southwell,
  • Wakefield,
  • Southwark,
  • Birmingham,
  • Sheffield,
  • St Edmundsbury,
  • Chelmsford,
  • Coventry,
  • Bradford,
  • Blackburn,
  • Derby,
  • Leicester,
  • Portsmouth,
  • St Albans,
  • Manchester,
  • Ripon and
  • Truro.
For these cathedrals you can get married in them under the usual terms of the Marriage Measure by Common Licence (usually issued by a surrogate or the registrar of the diocese) or after Banns if you have a Qualifying Connection.

In the other cathedrals,
  • Chichester,
  • Exeter,
  • Hereford,
  • Lichfield,
  • Lincoln,
  • London (St Paul’s),
  • Salisbury,
  • Wells,
  • York,
  • Carlisle,
  • Durham,
  • Winchester,
  • Canterbury,
  • Ely,
  • Norwich,
  • Rochester,
  • Worcester,
  • Gloucester,
  • Bristol,
  • Chester,
  • Oxford,
  • Peterborough
you can only get married by Archbishop's Special Licence. These can be used for marriage in a building where the usual Qualifying Connections can't be established, or where the building is not licensed for marriages.

The Royal Peculiars such as Westminster Abbey have their own rules. (E.g. The only people that can be married in Westminster Abbey are members of the Royal Family, Order of the Bath members and their children, and anyone living in the Abbey's Precincts.)

Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
The various gestures are repeated during the Our Father . . . . Many of them indulge in hand-holding.

I hate the orans mimicry and especially the hand-holding. Reminds me of AA. I half-expect people to swing their hands and chant, "Keep coming back, it really works."

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Adam.

Like as the
# 4991

 - Posted      Profile for Adam.   Author's homepage   Email Adam.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
A couple of questions about 'hands,' based on recent observations at the monastery where I'm currently employed:

1. During the Eucharistic Prayer, the concelebrating priests raise their hands, presumably imitating the celebrant's 'orans' position. However, I observe priests making these gestures:
  • 'I caught a fish this big!'
  • 'Don't shoot!'
  • 'I think it's raining.'
  • 'Black power!' (fists in the air)
  • 'Buddy, can you spare a dime.'

The rubrics for concelebrants specify which portions of the EP they should adopt the orans posture for. It's not imitation; they're offering a Mass and so use the appropriate posture. What you describe sounds like the variety of postures I see that fit under a broad understanding of orans. FWIW, I've noticed the "don't shoot!" orans as much more common among monastics than other priests.

quote:

2. The various gestures are repeated during the Our Father, the lay brothers now joining in. I thought I remembered from long-ago liturgical studies that the 'orans' was something only the celebrant did. So what's going on?

(Con)-Celebrants adopt the orans posture during the Our Father by rubric. For all other participants in the Mass, there is no assigned posture. Many people find the orans a helpful posture for prayer and they are quite at liberty to make it. As a Jewish prayer posture, it was not restricted to priests and there is no reason to restrict its use among Christians.

quote:

3. We frequently have groups of visitors. Many of them indulge in hand-holding during the Our Father. What's with this?

This is a reasonably common practice. With the source of all unity enthroned on the altar, while proclaiming a prayer grounded in our common filiation, many find it helpful to embody that unity by joining their hands with their neighbor. While it would be somewhat improper for (con)celebrants to join with this (as they should be making the orans posture), others are at liberty to adopt whatever posture they wish at this time.

--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
The following are cathedrals with parishes: [list]
[...
In the other cathedrals, [list]
...
)

I notice that Liverpool does not feature on either list. It is a comparatively recent foundation which has never had a parish, but I understand that the cathedral close (which didn't exist until 20 or so years ago) functions as a sort of parish and people who live there can get married in the cathedral. Does anyone know if any of the other non-parochial cathedrals have a similar set-up?
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vulpior

Foxier than Thou
# 12744

 - Posted      Profile for Vulpior   Author's homepage   Email Vulpior   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Back to Paschal candles. I've been in a reuse parish before, where the year etc was just a transfer. But I did see a picture of a Maundy Thursday altar of repose that had three previous years' Paschal candles at different heights. I liked that.

--------------------
I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad

Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

 - Posted      Profile for Spike   Email Spike   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
The following are cathedrals with parishes: [list]
[...
In the other cathedrals, [list]
...
)

I notice that Liverpool does not feature on either list. It is a comparatively recent foundation which has never had a parish, but I understand that the cathedral close (which didn't exist until 20 or so years ago) functions as a sort of parish and people who live there can get married in the cathedral. Does anyone know if any of the other non-parochial cathedrals have a similar set-up?
I think Guildford (which also doesn't appear on the list) is similar.

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So the rule of thumbe seems to be:
cathedrals of dioceses created before C19: no parish
cathedrals of later dioceses: parishes, because created from parish churches- except Liverpool and Guildford which were completely new foundations.
Is that right?

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
posted by georgiaboy
quote:
We frequently have groups of visitors. Many of them indulge in hand-holding during the Our Father. What's with this?
This sounds like a variant on what we have on this side of the pond, the hand(s) trying to loosen a screw fitment light bulb.

On the subject of Cathedral parishes, the above list is not accurate since most cathedrals have a parish, although for some it is limited to the Close; there are people who qualify to get married in them by virtue of living in the parish, plus they have an electoral roll so there are couples who qualfy on that basis as well.

In addition, most cathedrals are happy to accommodate the weddings of their former choristers.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I notice that Liverpool does not feature on either list

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I think Guildford (which also doesn't appear on the list) is similar.

You're quite right. A cut and paste error on my part. The situation for both is very similar and neither is a parish church.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So the rule of thumbe seems to be:
cathedrals of dioceses created before C19: no parish
cathedrals of later dioceses: parishes, because created from parish churches- except Liverpool and Guildford which were completely new foundations.
Is that right?

Basically, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
On the subject of Cathedral parishes, the above list is not accurate since most cathedrals have a parish, although for some it is limited to the Close; there are people who qualify to get married in them by virtue of living in the parish, plus they have an electoral roll so there are couples who qualfy on that basis as well.

I think you are wrong about most cathedrals having a parish. Here is my source.

Also, those which do not have a parish do not have an Electoral Roll, though many, maybe all, have a Community Roll. Being on the roll demonstrates a connection with the cathedral, and will generally mean that the cathedral will support a person's application for a Special Licence to be married there.

Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745

 - Posted      Profile for Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Email Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Guildford Diocese was formed on Sunday 1 May 1927, but the purpose-built new Cathedral was not consecrated until Wednesday 17 May 1961. The pro-cathedral before the new building was ready, was Holy Trinity Guildford (still there as a parish church).

Prior to the opening of the permanent Cathedral, the crypt chapel was open for worship, within the partly built permanent cathedral. In those days, that Church when it was opened for worship, became a conventional district and was not raised to parish status in 1961.

The present day qualification for entry onto the Cathedral electoral roll, is the requirement to be a habitual worshipper for the required length of time and there is no consideration for any resident qualifications, in the absence of a parish.

--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry BroJames, I'm not wrong: all cathedrals have parishes but not all cathedrals have been a parish church and nothing more during their history.

The link you give explains the status of Deans, especially those who are parish priest first, dean second - but that doesn't mean the cathedral doesn't have a parish.

Whether or not a cathedral was originally the church in a monastic foundation makes no difference because the ancient abbeys were also parish churches - something which many remained after the dissolution. The exceptions were those abbeys - mainly cistercian - in out-of-the-way places where there was no lay population to use the church for worship (Fountains, Strata Florida, Llanthony, etc).

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220

 - Posted      Profile for Corvo   Email Corvo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Sorry BroJames, I'm not wrong: all cathedrals have parishes but not all cathedrals have been a parish church and nothing more during their history.

The link you give explains the status of Deans, especially those who are parish priest first, dean second - but that doesn't mean the cathedral doesn't have a parish.

. . .

Note 26. "None of the cathedrals founded before the nineteenth century is a parish church as such, though parts of several of them have at some time been used as parish churches, and in some there were small parish churches in the close".
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged
american piskie
Shipmate
# 593

 - Posted      Profile for american piskie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Sorry BroJames, I'm not wrong: all cathedrals have parishes but not all cathedrals have been a parish church and nothing more during their history.

The link you give explains the status of Deans, especially those who are parish priest first, dean second - but that doesn't mean the cathedral doesn't have a parish.

Whether or not a cathedral was originally the church in a monastic foundation makes no difference because the ancient abbeys were also parish churches - something which many remained after the dissolution. The exceptions were those abbeys - mainly cistercian - in out-of-the-way places where there was no lay population to use the church for worship (Fountains, Strata Florida, Llanthony, etc).

So what is the parish church of the parish [which you assert exists] of a cathedral which is not a parish church [which the C of E thinks exist -- see eg the guidance notes on the 2008 Marriage Measure]? I don't doubt most cathedrals have associated non-parochial areas but I am not convinced by your assertion that these peculiar places are parishes.

(Not quite serious: Dammit, follow the money! If they were parishes they'd have a Parish Share, and we all know that our Parish Share in inflated because the cathedral congregation doesn't contribute.)

Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  ...  37  38  39 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools