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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
My researches here suggest that the four non-parish-church cathedrals which are shown has having parishes all have parish 'names' such as "Cathedral Ex.[tra] Par[ochial]", "Cathedral Precinct" etc. Of the remainder, seven are shown as being wholly within one or more parish church parishes.
The others neither have a parish name, nor are they shown as being within parishes.
Norwich is something of an oddity in that the cathedral was built in the parish of St Mary in the Marsh in Norwich, and when that parish church was demolished one of the chapels within the cathedral was designated to be the parish church. Something similar happened with St Paul's cathedral in London and St Faith's.
The areas over which the non-parish-church cathedrals have jurisdiction are not parishes, but extra-parochial areas. (As indeed were many Abbeys, about ten percent of which, apparently, were already in use as parish churches prior to the dissolution)
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Cathscats
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# 17827
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Posted
Since this whole parishes or not parishes discussion began with a query about weddings, it should be noted that in Scotland until recently the reverse of the English rules applied. I.e. Ministers could (and still can) conduct a wedding anywhere but registrars had to use their offices. Registrars are now allowed out (!) but tend the charge a lot, while Church of Scotland ministers may not make a charge for offering the ordinances of religion, which includes weddings.
I have just come back from conducting a lovely wedding in the bride's parental home. It was a very Christian affair!
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Related to the cathedral question I suppose - what about holding weddings in (Anglican) convent/monastery chapels in England? Or for that matter, private chapels in stately homes?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, good question. For example, I see that Lord Salisbury still has a domestic chaplain (with a chapel) at Hatfield. Can he celebrate legally valid marriages? And what about proprietary chapels?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Related to the cathedral question I suppose - what about holding weddings in (Anglican) convent/monastery chapels in England? Or for that matter, private chapels in stately homes?
This would require a special licence. If you have some real connection with the chapel (it's your school chapel, or you own the stately home and it's your chapel) then it will be granted.
The owner of a stately home is unlikely to be able to host C of E weddings in his chapel as a business.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Robert Cecil's chapel at Hatfield isn't licensed for weddings - he wasn't married there in any case because he married an RC.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Zacchaeus
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# 14454
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Posted
CofE weddings can only happen in CofE premises.
The stately home can apply to be a civil venue for business but they can't be CofE only civil weddings.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Would, then, a CoE convent's chapel come under CoE premises?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
CofE weddings can only happen in CofE premises.
The stately home can apply to be a civil venue for business but they can't be CofE only civil weddings.
No. CofE weddings under Special Licence can take place anywhere and at any time. That is part of the point of the Special Licence - for example to enable death bed marriages in hospital.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
CofE weddings can only happen in CofE premises.
The stately home can apply to be a civil venue for business but they can't be CofE only civil weddings.
No. CofE weddings under Special Licence can take place anywhere and at any time. That is part of the point of the Special Licence - for example to enable death bed marriages in hospital.
Sorry I was talking about the ‘business’ side of weddings, not extreme cases and pastoral situations.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
CofE weddings can only happen in CofE premises.
. . .
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Would, then, a CoE convent's chapel come under CoE premises?
No convent was ever 'owned' by the Church of England, but the chapel might be licensed for worship. But a Special Licence would allow marriages even if it were not. It could also allow marriages in unlicensed buildings or places belonging to other denominations. When I was a student in London I went to SL marriages at the University Church of Christ the King which was actually a Catholic Apostolic Church simply rented by the Diocese ( I think for 10/- a year).
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Thank you! I was only talking about individual cases and not using chapels as part of a wedding business.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, good question. For example, I see that Lord Salisbury still has a domestic chaplain (with a chapel) at Hatfield. Can he celebrate legally valid marriages? And what about proprietary chapels?
Christ Church, Bath is licensed for weddings.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
So what did everyone get up to for Trinity Sunday?
We had Holy, holy, holy, and then St Patrick's breastplate: the 3 or 4 wedding couples in church to hear their banns being read looked suitably stunned - and that was before we gave them O thou, the central Orb by Charles Wood.
The Piece d'Orgue by JSB to finish, of course.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I had an unusual question. At our church the Altar Guild does the flowers in addition to all the vessels/wine/table hangings. A parishioner asked me if the large triangular flower arrangement by the altar was Trinitarian in intent. I was forced to reply that for vases of that size there really are only two options. The flowers are either vaguely globular, or dimly triangular in arrangement. (We are not avant-garde enough to have rectangular floral displays.) He was disappointed.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
So what did everyone get up to for Trinity Sunday?
Baptisms at both morning Masses. When I took the bookings, I thought that that would tie in nicely with Trinity Sunday, then looked at the readings, and found that the lectionary compilers had had the same idea.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Baptisms at both morning Masses. When I took the bookings, I thought that that would tie in nicely with Trinity Sunday, then looked at the readings, and found that the lectionary compilers had had the same idea.
Baptisms at our place, too. One service, four baptisms—an infant from one family and the father and two elementary school-age sons from another family. Add to that ordination and installation of elders and deacons.
"Holy, Holy, Holy" was the processional hymn. Most other hymns were more baptismal in focus.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
So what did everyone get up to for Trinity Sunday
As sickness meant I had to miss church yesterday but had done all the arrangements and printing for it beforehand, I can advise that at our little A-C shack we had:
Organ Prelude: Samuel Scheidt's "Wir glauben all an einen Gott"
Chortal Prelude: William Byrd's ‘O lux beata Trinitas’
Processional Hymn: 1st part of St Patrick's Breastplate'
Gradual Hymn: 'Holy, Holy, Holy'
Sermon Meditation: ‘Sanctus’ from ‘Deutsche Messe' by Franz Schubert
Offertory Hymn: St Patrick's Breastplate Pt. 2
Communion music: Tchaikovsky's Cherubic Hymn No. 2
Recessional Hymn: 'I the Lord of Sea and Sky'(so right when the OT lesson was Isaiah 6:1-8).
Postlude: 'Sinfonia' from Cantata 29 - J.S. Bach (arr. Guilmant)
All to the choral mass setting by Dudman -lots of singing, and with the backdrop of the cross of flames which was intentionally left there from last Sunday's service.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
So what did everyone get up to for Trinity Sunday?
St. Patrick's Breastplate (or Paddy's Bra as it's known in the Church of Ireland) in procession
Mass setting: Schubert in G
Motet: Hymn to the Trinity - Tchaikovsky
plus Holy, holy, holy and sundry other seasonal hymns
Postlude: Bach Prelude and St. Anne Fugue (which has Trinitarian references - three sections, three flats in the key-signature, and time-signatures based on threes or groups of three).
Evensong featured a flock of Byrd:
Byrd Responses
Psalms 146 and 150 (not by Byrd)
Byrd: Second Service
Byrd: Prevent us, O Lord
Postlude: Byrd: The Earle of Oxford's Marche
Instead of the Apostles' Creed, we sang the Athanasian Creed to Anglican chant - did anyone else do that?
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
Any idea what symbol on wooden font cover in the shape of a wide triangle with three wooden arrows in it might be? It is in Anglican church in Port Macquarie, NSW.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Our main service started with a magnificent introit by an English composer of whom I had not heard and whose name slips my mind, but I'd say from the end of the Renaissance. Then the Beastplate as the processional hymn. Holy, Holy, Holy was the Gospel gradual. The communion motets were Byrd's Ave verum corpus and a much more modern one. A couple of other seasonal hymns rounded it out. Then a bit of J S as a postlude - hard not to have him on a Sunday morning.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I had an unusual question. At our church the Altar Guild does the flowers in addition to all the vessels/wine/table hangings. A parishioner asked me if the large triangular flower arrangement by the altar was Trinitarian in intent. I was forced to reply that for vases of that size there really are only two options. The flowers are either vaguely globular, or dimly triangular in arrangement. (We are not avant-garde enough to have rectangular floral displays.) He was disappointed.
No no no! You are a fantasy writer. You should have extemporised some fanciful theological explanation and sat back to see whether it spread! I came up with something on these boards a while ago about the symbolism of different coloured Christmas tree baubles and I live in hope that someone believed it and has ever since dressed their tree accordingly.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I save that creativity for people who call me from Bangalore or Indonesia telling me that my computer needs a patch.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
Question for all of you liturgi-geeks, especially you with familiarity with the RC: Can a priest consecrate the Chrism? I read on the old Catholic Encyclopedia that at one time the Holy See would permit certain priests to consecrate the Chrism under certain circumstances. Is this ever done now? And, if a priest were to do so without permission would it be illicit and valid or just in invalid as well as illicit? What say ye? I know in many of the only Orthodox Churches only a Patriarch can consecrate Chrism and not every year at that.
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My cooking blog: http://inthekitchenwithdon.blogspot.com/
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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869
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Posted
Roselyn wrote:
quote:
Any idea what symbol on wooden font cover in the shape of a wide triangle with three wooden arrows in it might be? It is in Anglican church in Port Macquarie, NSW.
Could it be a variation on the carpenter's square and spear, which are the traditional heraldic emblems for St Thomas, who is the patron saint of that church?
Posts: 375 | From: Hunter Valley NSW | Registered: Sep 2010
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Priests may confirm with chrism consecrated by a bishop, and this happens fairly often, but its consecration is reserved to bishops.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
Roselyn wrote:
quote:
Any idea what symbol on wooden font cover in the shape of a wide triangle with three wooden arrows in it might be? It is in Anglican church in Port Macquarie, NSW.
Could it be a variation on the carpenter's square and spear, which are the traditional heraldic emblems for St Thomas, who is the patron saint of that church?
I'd have thought it far more likely to indicate the Trinity.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
I agree that it is highly likely that the symbols are those of St Thomas - the odd triangle will indeed be a carpenter's/mason's Square.
I base my logic on my understanding that the church is dedicated to St Thomas too, or so St Google of the Mystic Knowledge advises...
Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009
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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869
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Posted
I have worshipped in Port Macquarie once, but had the misfortune to choose the cafe church service which is held in the parish hall, so haven't been into the historic church. At the service I attended, communion was distributed from a broken wholemeal loaf and wee cuppies - wine to the left of the tray and grape juice to the right. I think it is the lowest parish on the candle in the whole of the Diocese of Grafton.
Posts: 375 | From: Hunter Valley NSW | Registered: Sep 2010
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
While of course I would know nothing about the Diocese of Grafton, when I didn't know said diocese most it was certainly the happiest-clappiest and I have no indication of change since.
If hypothetically I were in the region I would attend a different parish church about 20 kms west. But I'm sure a Trinitarian God is worshipped there, too.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
I agree that it is highly likely that the symbols are those of St Thomas - the odd triangle will indeed be a carpenter's/mason's Square.
I base my logic on my understanding that the church is dedicated to St Thomas too, or so St Google of the Mystic Knowledge advises...
I don't know of course, but from what we learn here of the church it is unlikely they would be much into either their patron saint or sanctoral symbolism. I used to go to a church dedicated to St Thomas with a permanent incense fug and never saw a triangle. The statue of St Thomas held a set square, which was L shaped: quite different from a triangle.
As I say, almost certainly a symbol of the Trinity.
[ 16. June 2015, 16:40: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Is it something like this? Or are the arrows the broad arrows which were aand perhaps still are used to mark British government property, the church in question dating back to the early colonial period? They look like this.
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
it is dark, skeletal and 3 dimensional about 3 inches on the long edge. Arrows radiate from middle of long edge have parallel edges and a medium sized triangle where they meet the other sides. May be errors in this description as it is some weeks since I saw it.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Roselyn:
it is dark, skeletal and 3 dimensional about 3 inches on the long edge. Arrows radiate from middle of long edge have parallel edges and a medium sized triangle where they meet the other sides. May be errors in this description as it is some weeks since I saw it.
For someone coming new to this thread, this is a mysterious and terrifying post.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I blinked. But I was gobsmacked to see box pews. That would be C19 Low Church in England, but I can't imagine any would be vibrant evangelical church in England retaining them nowadays.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
... unless they were Grade 1 Listed perhaps?
What I found strange were not the pews but the long shorts worn by the older boys! Reminiscent of the Colonel's "Hill House" School in Kensington (London) - but that only goes up to age 13.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
PS St. John's, Downshire Hill, has box pews under the gallery but not in the central part of the nave: this has chairs.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
Question for all of you liturgi-geeks, especially you with familiarity with the RC: Can a priest consecrate the Chrism? I read on the old Catholic Encyclopedia that at one time the Holy See would permit certain priests to consecrate the Chrism under certain circumstances. Is this ever done now? And, if a priest were to do so without permission would it be illicit and valid or just in invalid as well as illicit? What say ye? I know in many of the only Orthodox Churches only a Patriarch can consecrate Chrism and not every year at that.
Like Ceremoniar says, priests cannot consecrate chrism, only bishops can.
I was told, in the Episcopal Church, anyway, that priests can, however, consecrate the oil of the sick. Can anyone confirm that (no pun intended)?
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
Question for all of you liturgi-geeks, especially you with familiarity with the RC: Can a priest consecrate the Chrism? I read on the old Catholic Encyclopedia that at one time the Holy See would permit certain priests to consecrate the Chrism under certain circumstances. Is this ever done now? And, if a priest were to do so without permission would it be illicit and valid or just in invalid as well as illicit? What say ye? I know in many of the only Orthodox Churches only a Patriarch can consecrate Chrism and not every year at that.
Like Ceremoniar says, priests cannot consecrate chrism, only bishops can.
I was told, in the Episcopal Church, anyway, that priests can, however, consecrate the oil of the sick. Can anyone confirm that (no pun intended)?
I have heard this said by a TEC bishop. However, that doesn't mean that it is so. And I have no documentation to hand to either affirm or refute the statement.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
In the Church of England, Canon B37 (scroll down the page), provides that oil for the sick can be consecrated by a priest. Also, I see the 1979 BCP makes provision for the priest to bless oil for the sick in its provision for Ministration to the Sick.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Also, in the Common Worship book of Pastoral Services, there are a couple of prayers over the oil, for use by priests.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A church near me is having a 'Dedicated Mass'.
What's that? (Not dedication festival)
Never heard of it. Can you find out from the church concerned?
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
A little googling suggests that it is a term used in RCC for a mass with a particular seasonal or other focus, or for the anniversary of death of a particular person.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A church near me is having a 'Dedicated Mass'.
What's that? (Not dedication festival)
Never heard of it either. Can you give some context? Is this literally just a line on a bulletin saying "Tuesday, 7pm: Dedicated Mass" or did you come across it as part of some larger unit (sentence / document) which would help us understand it?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Or, thinking further, is it a "Dedicated Mass," ie. a Mass at which the well(!)-known music group "Dedicated" will be playing, or a Mass provided for the members of the lay association "Dedicated", etc. If I came across the phrase with no explanatory context, that's how I'd understand it. (We have a "Rejoice! Mass" on campus, which is a Mass that the "Rejoice!" music group provide the music for.)
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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