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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
And to you, Oblatus, greetings from The Hill (St. Meinrad) where I'm now employed!

You mean Heaven on Earth. Congratulations!
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Piglet
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This isn't exactly liturgical, but I can't think of anywhere else to put it: did anyone else use the tune Deo Gracias (The Agincourt Carol) for the Office Hymn at Evensong today, to mark the 600th anniversary of the battle?

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alto n a soprano who can read music

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L'organist
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We use it for Forth in the peace of Christ. To mark the occasion we also had some of Walton's suite for Olivier's film of Henry V before the service.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Piglet
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We had some of the Walton after the morning service too, and D. did some improvising on Deo Gracias before and during.

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alto n a soprano who can read music

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
This isn't exactly liturgical, but I can't think of anywhere else to put it: did anyone else use the tune Deo Gracias (The Agincourt Carol) for the Office Hymn at Evensong today, to mark the 600th anniversary of the battle?

Am I the only shipmate who followed this link and was amazed to discover the church with a procession, a robed choir, a gospel book held high, a stone altar, hemispherical apse and a crucifer is Presbyterian? It isn't what Presbyterian usually looks like in the UK, either in Scotland or in the rest of the country.

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Albertus
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That's astonishing. I'd say it was a bit higher than our AffCath CinW shack.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
This isn't exactly liturgical, but I can't think of anywhere else to put it: did anyone else use the tune Deo Gracias (The Agincourt Carol) for the Office Hymn at Evensong today, to mark the 600th anniversary of the battle?

Am I the only shipmate who followed this link and was amazed to discover the church with a procession, a robed choir, a gospel book held high, a stone altar, hemispherical apse and a crucifer is Presbyterian? It isn't what Presbyterian usually looks like in the UK, either in Scotland or in the rest of the country.
Judging by the thickness of the book, I'd say that's a Bible rather than an Gospel Book. The surprisingly huge Gospel Book at my Orthodox cathedral is still considerably thinner than that.

I once attended the Eucharist at a local university chaplaincy here in Manchester where the Bible was carried in in just that manner - held aloft and open to the day's reading. When I asked about it I was told that, although the celebrant that day had been Anglican, the chaplaincy was ecumenical and the carrying in of the Bible was a Presbyterian tradition maintained by the URC presence there. So the practice is not unknown in the UK.

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Jengie jon

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Yes, Bible Carrying in is frequent in URCs and is an adoption from the CofS. Normally it is closed, not open. Although I expect hot denials, it plays a symbolic role in the creation of sacred space within the tradition. It is not essential but acts as reinforcement. The conjunction of Word, Sacraments and People are the essentials for sacred space. You will normally find communion table and font at the front in URCs for this reason as well.

Robed choirs are also more common among Presbyterians than other Non-Conformists in England (i.e. no unheard of). There are some CofS with Robed Choirs but they are more common in America.

Presbyterianism has a high ceremonial form which makes the adoption of such procedure feel natural.

Jengie

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Liturgylover
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After my very enjoyable experiences at St Giles Cathedral, St Columba (London) and Crown Court (London), I wasn't at all surprised to see the features described in the link.
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Forthview
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It certainly used to be very common in the Church of Scotland for the beadle (church officer) to carry up to the pulpit with some solemnity,just before the service began, a large copy of the Bible.

I have never been to a service in Glasgow cathedral (High Kirk of St Mungo) but was intrigued to see on Sundays a service of Choral Evensong advertised. I wonder if it is the same as the Anglican Choral Evensong.

I was even more intrigued to see, even although only in a musical setting interspersed with readings and prayers, a Requiem Mass at the interchange time between All Saints and All Souls.

Time was when most Church of Scotland Christians would not have known about All Saints/All Souls.

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Cathscats
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But you wouldn't see any of it at my little Churches of Scotland! An Australian doctor in a local hospital who had been to a service at one of the more formal, robed-choir type of Church of Scotland congregations once congratulated me on our "liturgy". I reflected that few of my congregants would even know the word.

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Cathscats
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But you wouldn't see any of it at my little Churches of Scotland! An Australian doctor in a local hospital who had been to a service at one of the more formal, robed-choir type of Church of Scotland congregations once congratulated me on our "liturgy". I reflected that few of my congregants would even know the word.

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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")

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Forthview
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So does the beadle still carry the Bible to the pulpit in your church ?
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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
This isn't exactly liturgical, but I can't think of anywhere else to put it: did anyone else use the tune Deo Gracias (The Agincourt Carol) for the Office Hymn at Evensong today, to mark the 600th anniversary of the battle?

Am I the only shipmate who followed this link and was amazed to discover the church with a procession, a robed choir, a gospel book held high, a stone altar, hemispherical apse and a crucifer is Presbyterian? It isn't what Presbyterian usually looks like in the UK, either in Scotland or in the rest of the country.
When I saw "a stone altar" and "hemispherical apse," I somehow knew it was East Liberty Pres in Pittsburg. It doesn't get much higher than that among Presbyterians over here. (Though they would still call the piece of furniture the Table, the Communion Table or the Lord's Table, not the altar.)

As for the other points, robed choirs are almost universal among Presbyterians over here. The robes may not be cassocks and surplices/cottas (which can certainly be found), but it's an un-robed choir that would be unusual.

Processions are also quite common. In some congregations (such as mine), they're an every Sunday thing. In other congregations, they're more of a festal thing.

A processional cross or crucifer is less common, but usage has increased over the last few decades. I think they rarely raise eyebrows anymore. Carrying the Bible in procession is even less common than a processional cross in my experience, but again is not necessarily rare either.

As for the Table and apse, without question a stone Table is unusual. Wood is by far the norm. A central Table with pulpit to the side, perhaps with apse-like architecture, are very common over here. But in few places will they be as ornate as at East Liberty. A penchant for relative simplicity still reigns in many places.

[ 30. October 2015, 16:54: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
So does the beadle still carry the Bible to the pulpit in your church ?

No beadle at our local CofS but an elder does that duty every Sunday. The pulpit is then left empty because the minister prefers the lectern...
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dj_ordinaire
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A musical one, copied from Roselyn's closed thread:

quote:
Does anyone have the music to "Lo here is Fellowship"? please


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North East Quine

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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
So does the beadle still carry the Bible to the pulpit in your church ?

Yes, the congregation stands, the Beadle carries the Bible in, the congregation sits down, and the minister comes in.

It's reversed at the end of the service. The congregation stand for the benediction, and remain standing whilst the Beadle carries the Bible out. The congregation then sit while the minister walks to the front door, ready to bid farewell to departing congregants.

ETA - The Beadle carries the Bible to and from the lectern, not the pulpit.

[ 23. November 2015, 18:34: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

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Episcoterian
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This one must come up every now and then:

What liturgical colour is being used now for ordinations? I've always thought it was just red (as a commemoration of the Holy Spirit etc.). My googling of ordination invitations (looking for ideas for my own) picked up some places (mostly RC and Anglican) asking clergy to come in white stoles.

So, what's the current use in your necks of the woods?

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Adam.

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We do our diaconate ordinations on Sundays, so use whatever the regular color for that Sunday is (normally green given the timing). We do our priestly ordinations on the Saturday during the Easter Octave, so wear white.

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
This one must come up every now and then:

What liturgical colour is being used now for ordinations? I've always thought it was just red (as a commemoration of the Holy Spirit etc.). My googling of ordination invitations (looking for ideas for my own) picked up some places (mostly RC and Anglican) asking clergy to come in white stoles.

So, what's the current use in your necks of the woods?

Orthodox ordinations have no liturgical colour. The ordination is a brief rite of 5-15 minutes which is inserted into the pertinent section of the liturgy of the day. The colour worn is that of the feast or season, much like the western Catholic practice mentioned by Adam.

Is a liturgical colour for ordinations an Anglican custom?

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seasick

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I suspect there's an etymology for a liturgical colour for ordinations that goes: ordinations at Petertide -> St Peter and St Paul are celebrated in red -> ordinations are celebrated in red.

(British) Methodist ordinations use red - the usual reason given being for the Holy Spirit, which isn't inappropriate...!

[ 29. November 2015, 07:05: Message edited by: seasick ]

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Kayarecee
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The ELCA (one of the big groups of Lutherans in the USA) specifies red for ordinations; the rationale is because ordination is about the Holy Spirit being invoked over the ministry of the ordinand. Our ordinations are seldom if ever done during the principal Sunday service, though I suspect that the color would be red regardless. USA'n Lutherans being what we are, though, the actual stoles worn at an ordination can be red, white, gold, multicolored, or "other," depending on the clergyperson wearing them, and one recently-ordained classmate of mine has ordination pictures where he's wearing a green stole, despite all the other clergy in the picture wearing something resembling red. I'm not sure why.


But red -> Holy Spirit is the rule for my little corner of the Church, at least for presbyteral ordinations, which are the only ordinations that the ELCA recognizes, which I could go on at length for, but that's another rant. =)

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Fr Weber
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I'd have to check the American Missal to be sure, but I'm pretty sure that the Mass for ordinations is a votive of the Holy Spirit, which would make the liturgical color red.

Nothing to do with Petertide or martyrdom, I'm afraid.

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Nick Tamen

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In my experience, it would seem that red is becoming the norm for ordinations of ministers in the Presbyterian Church (USA). As Kayarecee said of the ELCA, these ordinations rarely if ever take place during the principal Sunday services. They are technically services of the presbytery, so will occur when ministers from around the presbytery are able to attend, usually on a Sunday afternoon or evening.

But we also typically have ordination of elders (and perhaps deacons) once a year in each congregation, unless by chance everyone elected to serve at that time has already been ordained. These ordinations do take place during the principal Sunday service, and in my experience, the color of the day or season is almost always used. Red might be used instead of green if the ordinations take place during ordinary time.

[ 02. December 2015, 17:38: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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MrsBeaky
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Help please!

Liturgical traditions/ discipline are a little bit different here in the Anglican church Kenya.
Before I make a fool of myself could someone please confirm for me the theme of each of the Advent candles as having talked to several people here I am now doubting what I thought I once knew!
Thanks

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Adam.

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I've never heard of the candles having 'themes'; they're candles. Together, they symbolize the light entering into darkness, bit by bit, week by week. The third candle is customarily pink, to match the rose vestments that can be worn on the that Sunday. I know there are some customs linking the Sundays in Advent with various 'themes,' but I wouldn't apply those specifically to the candles. I would say that to the extent the Sundays have 'themes,' they should be dictated by the lectionary.

As I've been lighting candles recently, I've been also reflecting on our call to be light for the world, and how candles do this by allowing their hardness to be melted, being softened to bring light. A decent metaphor for discipleship, I think, probably not original to me, but hardly traditional either. Of course, discipleship imperatives only enlighten to the extent they're grounded in christological indicatives, and this one seems to be.

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ElaineC
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Peace, Love, Joy, Hope and Christ.

At least that's what I found on Google Images when I was looking for an Advent picture.

I'm preaching on the fourth Sunday and while doing some research I saw Hope mentioned as a theme.

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MrsBeaky
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Thank you both for replying
ElaineC, Those were the words I recalled but it was the order that was being questioned here the only one being certain was the third- Joy
Adam, I agree whole-heartedly about the Lectionary but I had in times past (in a catholic setting) been taught that each of the Sundays were Hope, Peace, Love, Joy- The pink candle for Gaudete Sunday being the one associated with Joy.

Still a little bit confused but getting there!

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Before I make a fool of myself could someone please confirm for me the theme of each of the Advent candles as having talked to several people here I am now doubting what I thought I once knew!

There is no single set of "themes" for each candle. As Adam. says, they are simply candles. The symbolism is the growing light of the candles while the natural light of the world wanes.

Any symbolism of specific candles—"this is the candle of Hope," "this is the candle of Joy," etc.—is, as it were, after-the-fact symbolism, presented in various devotional guides and resources. While hope, joy, peace and love seem to be common themes (though I have seen others), the order varies among different guides and resources.

The exception to that is the central Christ candle, which does indeed symbolize the arrival of the Christ.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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BroJames
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There are different traditions around. One is patriarchs, prophets, John the Baptist, the Blessed Virgin Mary.
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Enoch
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A few years ago, some of us here did a bit of research on this.

It's quite clear that the candles came first and then, because we're Christians and that's how we are, people felt they ought to symbolise something. So there are now quite a lot of different answers.

I think all of them are built round the idea that Jesus is the Light of the World and is coming into it. So the fifth central candle always represents Jesus Light of the World and is lit at midnight on Christmas Eve or on the morning of Christmas Day.

The CofE's recommended sequence is
- Advent 1 - The Patriarchs
- Advent 2 - The Prophets
- Advent 3 - John the Baptist
- Advent 4 - The Virgin Mary
- Christmas Day - The Christ

Those fit the readings and the prayers in the lectionary and Common Worship.

Other attributions for the first four are, Hope, Love, Joy and Peace - with some uncertainty about the order -, Prophets, Bethlehem, Shepherds, Angels, or Expectation, Joy, Hope, Purity.

There also seems to be no unanimity about what colour they ought to be, except that the Christ candle in the middle is always white. The other 'fork handles' most often seem to be all red, or with three purple and one pink, in which case as Adam says the pink one goes with the third Sunday. Somewhere I've heard it said that pink is the colour you get if you mix purple and white wax, but if so, whether it came second or it came first and purple for the others followed, I don't know. In the CofE's ordinary colour scheme, Advent is purple.


The candles themselves seem to come from either Germany or Scandinavia. I slightly wonder whether there's any connection with the unusual but spectacular Swedish tradition of wearing a ring of burning candles on one's head in honour of Santa Lucia. For those that have never heard of this, here's a Youtube.

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MrsBeaky
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OK now it is all becoming clearer.

I'd heard of the Patriarchs etc. themes too and
I also grew up with the idea of the increased light as each candle was lit culminating with the final candle- Christ Himself. The hope etc. theme was a later idea I encountered.

I'm glad to know that there is no set theme for each Sunday- I fear I may well have been indoctrinated by someone being very enthusiastic in their chosen devotional approach and being me I was afraid of making a mistake.....

I'll encourage people here to use whatever works for them in their Advent meditations.

Thank you all.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There also seems to be no unanimity about what colour they ought to be, except that the Christ candle in the middle is always white. The other 'fork handles' most often seem to be all red, or with three purple and one pink, in which case as Adam says the pink one goes with the third Sunday. Somewhere I've heard it said that pink is the colour you get if you mix purple and white wax, but if so, whether it came second or it came first and purple for the others followed, I don't know. In the CofE's ordinary colour scheme, Advent is purple.

The use of a rose candle reflects the tradition of using rose rather than purple as the color for the third Sunday (Gaudete Sunday). Rose being considered a lighter shade of purple, it is to reflect the somewhat relaxed joy allowed just over half-way through what was an otherwise penitential season, represented by purple.

On this side of the pond, the candles are almost always purple or purple and rose if the congregation uses purple as the color for Advent, or blue (or blue and rose) if the congregation uses blue for Advent. I've seen all white candles occasionally. I don't think I've ever seen red candles used.

[ 08. December 2015, 14:11: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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Nearly all British Nonconformist churches would use the red candles rather than the other colours. They might also assign different meanings to each Sunday in Advent.

[ 08. December 2015, 16:12: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Pigwidgeon

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Then again, there's this method...

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georgiaboy
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If you use blue vestments for Advent and are considering blue candles to match, BE CAREFUL!
Because the church supply store didn't have blue candles, our priest purchased them from a candle shop, and didn't find out until Sunday morning that they were blueberry scented. It was dreadful! Even the incense didn't cover it up. (And as the weeks went along and more candles were lighted, of course it just got worse.

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georgiaboy
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BTW, before the Lectionary was reformed, the 'themes' for the 4 Sundays of Advent were Death, Judgement, Heaven & Hell. (Heaven coming with rose vestments.)

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
If you use blue vestments for Advent and are considering blue candles to match, BE CAREFUL!
Because the church supply store didn't have blue candles, our priest purchased them from a candle shop, and didn't find out until Sunday morning that they were blueberry scented. It was dreadful! Even the incense didn't cover it up. (And as the weeks went along and more candles were lighted, of course it just got worse.

We had that several years ago. Miss-Know-It-All was going to do up the chapel Advent wreath better than the rest of us peons could. The scent was so bad I couldn't go into the Chapel during Advent because of my allergies.
[Mad]

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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
BTW, before the Lectionary was reformed, the 'themes' for the 4 Sundays of Advent were Death, Judgement, Heaven & Hell. (Heaven coming with rose vestments.)

Nice idea. I like it. So perhaps next year we could suggest that the candles represent the Four Last Things. They affect us all. They'd make a really good sermon series. Past generations heard them but they hardly ever get mentioned now.


Or does that jar a bit with the imagery of increasing light coming into the world. Does the thought of a candle of Death strike you as Goth?


To link those themes to the lectionary, though, would have depended on what lectionary one was talking about. Checking the 1662 BCP, the only reading that fits that scheme is in the second week. The first is about the entry into Jerusalem and the third and fourth are on John the Baptist.

Incidentally, the 1662 epistle for the 1st is from Romans 13 and is the source of the Advent collect. That used to be prayed as an extra collect throughout the season. I seem to recall Leo, who is much more knowledgeable about these things than I will ever be, saying that these days having more than one collect is deprecated.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
BTW, before the Lectionary was reformed, the 'themes' for the 4 Sundays of Advent were Death, Judgement, Heaven & Hell. (Heaven coming with rose vestments.)

Well, those were the themes often preached upon during Advent (the Four Last Things). But as Enoch points out, the BCP lessons for the season don't really support them.

It's the custom these days to preach on the lessons appointed for the day. That wasn't always the case.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


Incidentally, the 1662 epistle for the 1st is from Romans 13 and is the source of the Advent collect. That used to be prayed as an extra collect throughout the season. I seem to recall Leo, who is much more knowledgeable about these things than I will ever be, saying that these days having more than one collect is deprecated.

I wonder why that is? I find having the extra collect in Advent and Lent helps further differentiate the season from other times. But perhaps the additional collect is disliked because it reduces the amount of time available for footling sodded-about extras or rambling extempore prayer and/or notices.
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Forthview
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The Roman Missal used to have up to three collects at various Masses. Since Vatican 2 only one collect is allowed in the Roman Rite.

I assume that Leo's advice comes from this.

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dj_ordinaire
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It's a Vatican II sort of thing, and has generally been seen as good advice by Anglicans as well (at least at Holy Communion, the three assigned for Evensong remain in situ). No prohibition on using extra ones though...

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If you treat the invitation 'let us pray' to do just that, then the prayer will mainly consist of what people do in the subsequent silence. These 'prayers' are then summed up in the 'prayer of the assembly', namely the Collect. What would any additional spoken prayers be doing?
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Fr Weber
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The etymology of the word "collect" is unclear. Using that etymology to drive liturgical practice is on shaky ground to begin with, even without the obvious post-hoc theologizing.

And does anyone really think that people can only pray for one thing at a time? Or that if different people are praying for different things at the same time, it's somehow destructive of unity?

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Angloid
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Who said anything about etymology? It might be a handy teaching tool to say that 'the collect' 'collects our prayers'. But that isn't the reason for the practice.

It might not be how the prayer and its position in the liturgy has evolved, but to me at least it makes a lot of sense... I come to worship with my thoughts all over the place, as do others with other thoughts: the silence before the prayer is a stilling moment when these thoughts and prayers can settle and finally be focussed in one prayer uttered by the president on behalf of all. An additional prayer with another topic stirs it all up again. The place for extra topics and biddings is in the prayers of the people or intercessions.

But that's just one way of doing it, albeit the way that is directed/recommended by official Catholic and Anglican liturgy. I'm sure you can argue the case for just about any practice.

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Zappa
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In any case the etymology is not that broad ... it refers either to "collecting together" the people or "collecting together" the people's thoughts. Therefore more than one collect scatters or bifurcates rather than collects.

So does a bunch of wobbly nonchalant voices obeying the vacuous invitation "let's all just read the collect together," but that no doubt is a-wholly-nother sundry liturgical question.

When however I am supreme dictator of the world anyone who thus invites or obeys will go up against the wall.

In Christian love.

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There also seems to be no unanimity about what colour they ought to be, except that the Christ candle in the middle is always white. The other 'fork handles' most often seem to be all red, or with three purple and one pink, in which case as Adam says the pink one goes with the third Sunday. Somewhere I've heard it said that pink is the colour you get if you mix purple and white wax, but if so, whether it came second or it came first and purple for the others followed, I don't know. In the CofE's ordinary colour scheme, Advent is purple.

The use of a rose candle reflects the tradition of using rose rather than purple as the color for the third Sunday (Gaudete Sunday). Rose being considered a lighter shade of purple, it is to reflect the somewhat relaxed joy allowed just over half-way through what was an otherwise penitential season, represented by purple.

On this side of the pond, the candles are almost always purple or purple and rose if the congregation uses purple as the color for Advent, or blue (or blue and rose) if the congregation uses blue for Advent. I've seen all white candles occasionally. I don't think I've ever seen red candles used.

I am still baffled by the Roman Catholic church I saw a couple of weeks back which had an Advent Wreath with three purple candles and one red one around the outside, and the pink one in the middle. I am guessing it is due to simple confusion rather than actually implying the use of rose vestments for the Masses of Christmas, interesting thought that might be!

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Forthview
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Advent wreaths are a custom or tradition. They are , of course, not part of the liturgical rite
and as such not catered for in the rubrics of the Roman Missal.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
n this side of the pond, the candles are almost always purple or purple and rose if the congregation uses purple as the color for Advent, or blue (or blue and rose) if the congregation uses blue for Advent.

I think I need to amend this, as I have now been in two places of worship within the last week—an Episcopal parish church and an Episcopal school chapel—where the paraments were blue but the candles on the Advent wreath were purple and rose.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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