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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
That does have the function of a collect as in the Sarum or Tridentine rite where multiple collects were possible.
It means that for 1662 Anglicans, every eucharist is a votive mass for the sovereign with a commemoration of the day.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
That does have the function of a collect as in the Sarum or Tridentine rite where multiple collects were possible.
It means that for 1662 Anglicans, every eucharist is a votive mass for the sovereign with a commemoration of the day.
Can you persuade me that the concept of a votive mass is compatible with either the 1662 Prayer Book or the tradition that it embodies?! ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I was being mildly satirical. A votive mass was certainly part of the tradition of which the BCP was successor.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
One could argue that the 1662 BCP does have a tradition of votive Masses, as there are proper Collects, Epistles, and Gospels provided for The Communion of the Sick and the ordination of Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
One could argue that the 1662 BCP does have a tradition of votive Masses, as there are proper Collects, Epistles, and Gospels provided for The Communion of the Sick and the ordination of Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.
One could, but it wouldn't answer the test 'persuade'. The Communion of the Sick is for the benefit of the sick person, so that they can receive. Its role in the Ordination Service expresses "the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another" (Art 28) and the need of those ordained and ordaining to partake. The notion of a votive mass is based in the concept of the mass as a sacrifice. Whatever line other provinces may now take on this, that is not compatible with either Article 31 or the text of the prayer of consecration in the 1662 Prayer Book.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
My point was the overwhelmingly monarchist attitude of the BCP, which I find totally unacceptable, despite my boundless admiration for the integrity of Elizabeth the Second.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Ah. I did not pick that up.
As a matter of curiosity, if one is high enough to speak in terms of votive masses and the intention of the mass, does that mean that it then becomes an offering for everyone who is prayed for, from HMQEII to Mrs Murdoch's leg and Father Peter's piles? Are they all, by being prayed for, made part of the intention. Or if not, what has to happen to them to be raised in status from being interceded for, to being part of the intention?
I know I've expressed that slightly facetiously, but it's a serious question.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It is a very RC thing having a specific intention for a mass, in the way RC parish notices say 8am Monday Mrs O'Reilly's intention, 8am Tuesday Mr Antonioni's intention.
I've never come across that in Anglican catholic churches.
All the people prayed for at mass are prayed for, but it is quite appropriate to have a major intention, ie in masses for the departed.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
I second that, venbede. Although I've seen (done!) plenty of Votive Masses in the A/C tradition, I can't say I've ever encountered much evidence of such Mass intentions.
One thing puzzles me: in RC terms I always thought that the intention of a Mass in a parish church on Sundays or Holy Days of Obligation must be for the people of the parish. Yet here in France, notice sheets often give the impression that a Sunday Mass is being offered for a particular intention. Am I misunderstanding this?
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Addendum to last: in Anglican usage I see a Votive Mass as having themed propers, e.g. 'Of the Holy Spirit'. A Mass intention doesn't imply or require the use of themed propers.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The mass as sacrifice, well that's another can of worms or dead horses.
But all Christian worship including intercession, take part in the eternal offering of Christ, interceding for us, and in a sense is sacrifial.
That is particularly the case with the eucharist which is re-presenting the one eternal sacrifice of Christ.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
... for 1662 Anglicans, every eucharist is a votive mass for the sovereign with a commemoration of the day.
Sounds Ok to me
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
One thing puzzles me: in RC terms I always thought that the intention of a Mass in a parish church on Sundays or Holy Days of Obligation must be for the people of the parish. Yet here in France, notice sheets often give the impression that a Sunday Mass is being offered for a particular intention. Am I misunderstanding this?
As I understand it, the intentions of one of the Sunday masses must be for the people of the parish. Other Sunday masses can have different or additional intentions.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Just as Nick Tamen said ,one of the Sunday Masses should be offered 'pro populo' though I also agree that this is not always clear.
In France Masses are often offered for multiple intentions, but one should also remember that in addition to the particular intention, prayers are offered for all the faithful both living and dead.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Is the term "votive mass" still in RC use, Forthview?
I see from my 1970s missal masses for various occasions (eg. for vocations, Christian unity, harvest) as well as sets of readings and prayers for saints and mysteries of the faith for use other than on festival days (eg. Our Lady, the Sacred Heart, the Holy Spirit.)
If the use of either category is contrary to the 39 articles, so much the worse for the 39 articles.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
My understanding is that a 'Votive Mass' is a Mass offered on
a day where no 'obligatory 'Mass should be offered.
The prime example of an 'obligatory' Mass is that 'missa pro populo' which a parish priest is bound to offer for his parishioners every Sunday.
On non obligatory days the priest may use the texts and prayers of a Votive Mass instead of the Mass of the day.
Our parish priest will very often offer a Votive Mass of the Sacred Heart on a Friday, not only the first Friday of the month where that used to be a general custom.
On Saturdays a Votive Mass of the Blessed Virgin will often be offered.
Votive Masses are allowed on days where there is no obligatory feast, but usually the Readings will be the Readings of the Day. .Only very special Feast days will now have their own Readings which interrupt the flow of the general weekday Readings
Hope this is not too complicated but to summarise:
A votive Mass of the Sacred Heart would comprise
The Antiphons,Prayers and, if appropriate, Preface of the Sacred Heart but normally the Readings from Scripture assigned to the particular day - say Friday in the Third Week of Ordinary Time.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
The intention of the Mass and whether or not it's a Votive are two entirely different things. The situation when you can say a votive Mass are outlined here.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It is a very RC thing having a specific intention for a mass, in the way RC parish notices say 8am Monday Mrs O'Reilly's intention, 8am Tuesday Mr Antonioni's intention.
I've never come across that in Anglican catholic churches.
Our TEC shack (which isn't terribly spiky, or more than averagely Catholic) sees the mass offered for a specific intention from time to time - perhaps a handful of occasions in the year. The priest announced the intention at the start of the service - there has never been a notation in our bulletin.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I've never come across an Anglican church where the 'intention' is for a private individual (like 'Mrs O'Malley's intention). But in the past – though I have not noticed it anywhere in the last several years -– it used to be quite common for churches, perhaps MOTR 'upwards', to print a list of daily 'intentions' for which the mass was offered. They were always the sort of topics that would normally figure in the intercessions, such as 'the sick', 'local hospitals', 'peace in the Middle East': general rather than specifically personal.
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Many Anglican Dioceses circulate a calendar of prayer suggestions juxtaposing church and community prayer topics - my all time favourite one day asked prayers for the Diocesan Bishop and for the criminally insane......
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Generally speaking, a votive Mass may be offered on any day where it is not forbidden to do so. In practice, this means Sundays and holy days of obligations, as well as certain other days, such as Holy Week, Easter octave, etc.
Generally, even though it is a feast day, a Mass of that day must be offered, but then another Mass that day could be a votive Mass. The term votive Mass is still quite frequently used in the RCC, as it is the term used in the missal. Ritual Masses are Masses that are celebrated at specific occasions, such as a wedding, confirmation, ordination, a Eucharistic Congress, etc. Votive Masses are typically either for a specific need (the sick, protection against storms, the dying, for the grace of the Holy Spirit, etc.), or they are for devotion (of the Holy Cross, the Precious Bloood, the Sacred Heart, etc.). In fact, a votive Mass is typically the Mass for that feast day in the kalendar, but celebrated on another day, for devotional purposes. A parish might celebrate a votive Mass for St. Anthony if there is a meeting of the St. Anthony's Guild, etc.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Is having the Angelus at the end of Mass a specifically Anglo-Catholic thing or does it have roots either in Pre-Reformation England or at some other time or place in the RCC? Here in the US, I have been to both Ordinary Rite (Novus Ordo) and Extraordinary Rite (Tridentine) Masses in the RCC and have never encountered the Angelus at the end of Mass, but maybe it was something they used to do that they do not do anymore? Or something only associated with Solemn High Mass (which Anglo-Catholics of a certain stripe do all the time, but is only rarely done when RCs celebrate the Extraordinary Rite)? Or is it a specifically English or Anglo-Catholic thing? Does anyone know the history of this and why it was introduced whenever and wherever it was?
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Here in France it should be possible to end the 11am Mass with the Angelus at 12, but that would require the service to (a) be well regulated, and (b) start on time. As it is, the Angelus bells are all electrified (in our shack it is controlled by a mechanism titled 'Quasimodo'!) and crash out to destroy the mood of the service during or immediately after Communion.
A nice manual Anglican Angelus at the appropriate moment (even if a few minutes late) would be far more seemly.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
The Angelus is a devotion prayed three times each day: at sunrise, noon and sunset, at the sound of a bell intended to call the faithful to prayer. It is not background music for the eucharist -- I hate it when it is treated as such!
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The pope, who is usually considered to be Catholic, prays the Angelus publicly every Sunday and Holyday at 12 noon when he is in Rome.
6a.m.,12 noon and 6p.m. are the traditional times for the Angelus but they need not be followed in every detail.
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
In France, the Angelus is 7am, noon, and 7pm.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Is having the Angelus at the end of Mass a specifically Anglo-Catholic thing or does it have roots either in Pre-Reformation England or at some other time or place in the RCC? Here in the US, I have been to both Ordinary Rite (Novus Ordo) and Extraordinary Rite (Tridentine) Masses in the RCC and have never encountered the Angelus at the end of Mass, but maybe it was something they used to do that they do not do anymore? Or something only associated with Solemn High Mass (which Anglo-Catholics of a certain stripe do all the time, but is only rarely done when RCs celebrate the Extraordinary Rite)? Or is it a specifically English or Anglo-Catholic thing? Does anyone know the history of this and why it was introduced whenever and wherever it was?
I am referring to the prayers of the Angelus, said without bells, and not at any particular time of day - but said by the clergy and congregation at the end of Mass. I have observed it at several Anglo-Catholic parishes, and I was wondering when, where, and why the practice started.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
The AC parishes where I have worked have had the Angelus (or other Marian Antiphon) at the beginning of Mass.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Is having the Angelus at the end of Mass a specifically Anglo-Catholic thing or does it have roots either in Pre-Reformation England or at some other time or place in the RCC? .... Or is it a specifically English or Anglo-Catholic thing? Does anyone know the history of this and why it was introduced whenever and wherever it was?
The Angelus would have died out in England at the Reformation. Any CofE or other Anglican adoption will have been an attempt by fairly spiky Anglo-Catholics to revive it. Unlike candles and more colourful vestments, it has not got back within the range of 'normal' CofE practice again.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I suspect the original questioner was not suggesting the Angelus was a 'normal' Anglican tradition, but questioning whether this anglo-catholic practice (of saying it publicly in church, usually after a mid-morning mass ending about noon) was common in the RC church, or ever had been.
The Community of the Resurrection at Mirfield ring the bell at the usual time of the devotion (always before or after one of the offices) but it is not said publicly.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Did saying the Angelus before or after Mass in Anglo-Catholic parishes start because Masses tended to either end around noon (if they started between 10 and 11 am) or begin at noon? I have been to parishes where it is said after Mass with no ringing of bells, even if Mass is ending at 11:30 am (or 8pm!). I have also seen it prayed at another parish before Mass (and this was an evening Mass for the Epiphany on a weekday).
I wonder whether some Anglo-Catholics appended the Angelus to the end of Mass, regardless of the time of its celebration, as an alternative to the Leonine Prayers, which were perhaps a bit too Papist. Thoughts? I do not know why it would have been regularly added to the beginning of Sunday Mass unless it was due to the time Mass began or just as a way to encourage Marian devotion. I was wondering if anyone knows when this trend started.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The AC parishes where I have worked have had the Angelus (or other Marian Antiphon) at the beginning of Mass.
How often was it the Angelus? And why was it at the beginning of Mass?
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Did saying the Angelus before or after Mass in Anglo-Catholic parishes start because Masses tended to either end around noon (if they started between 10 and 11 am) or begin at noon? I have been to parishes where it is said after Mass with no ringing of bells, even if Mass is ending at 11:30 am (or 8pm!). I have also seen it prayed at another parish before Mass (and this was an evening Mass for the Epiphany on a weekday).
I wonder whether some Anglo-Catholics appended the Angelus to the end of Mass, regardless of the time of its celebration, as an alternative to the Leonine Prayers, which were perhaps a bit too Papist. Thoughts? I do not know why it would have been regularly added to the beginning of Sunday Mass unless it was due to the time Mass began or just as a way to encourage Marian devotion. I was wondering if anyone knows when this trend started.
I think Fr Hunwicke had a post about this a while back. I'll have to look it up.
Certainly the only times I've heard the Angelus said/sung (or rung while prayed silently) appended to Mass was when the timing would justify it - i.e. after a Sunday Mass ending at midday, or before a Mass beginning at noon or 6pm. And apart from the Regina Caeli, I've never heard any other antiphon substituted for it (as opposed to the seasonally variable Marian Antiphon after Evensong/Vespers/Compline). I note that the St Bede Breviary online includes the option of saying the Angelus before Mattins and Evensong, presumably on the assumption that they might each begin around 6 o'clock.
I only have experience of the pre/post-Mass Angelus in Anglican churches, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything as the RC parishes I knew before swimming the Thames weren't especially "spiky".
I believe I have heard the Leonine Prayers, or at least the Salve Regina, following a 1962 Mass. And I have heard the Domine salvam fac for the Queen said after Mass in an ordinariate church.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
When the Cowley Fathers were still at Cowley, they had Evensong (BCP in plainchant with antiphons for the Magnificat) at 6pm.
They recited the Angelus first.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Joan Rasch
Shipmate
# 49
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
When the Cowley Fathers were still at Cowley, they had Evensong (BCP in plainchant with antiphons for the Magnificat) at 6pm.
They recited the Angelus first.
... And this custom continues to this day in the US SSJE community.
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* A cyclist on the information bikepath
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
In our A-C shack, the Angelus is only ever publicly recited at the end of Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer (seven days a week), not in connection with Mass. So it's said at approximately 7:25 a.m. and 6:25 p.m. on weekdays, and at 7:45 a.m. on Sundays. It's not said at the end of Sunday Choral Evensong.
We do change to the Regina caeli in Eastertide. As for other antiphons, we have sometime in Lent done the Angelus at the beginning of Evening Prayer and then the Ave Regina caelorum at the end of Evening Prayer.
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
When the Cowley Fathers were still at Cowley, they had Evensong (BCP in plainchant with antiphons for the Magnificat) at 6pm.
They recited the Angelus first.
In the 1970s there was a real jangle of bells in East Oxford: the Cowley Fathers, the All Saints Sisters, the sisters at Nazareth House, the Greyfriars, and often the Parish Church too all rang the Angelus. Ichabod.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Can I ask a completely (well, slightly) different question.
Last Sunday we had a united service at our local Anglo-Catholic church. It was "Sung Evensong with Benediction". I enjoyed it but was left feeling a bit puzzled by the Benediction, and not just because I have different views on the Sacrament in general and the Real Presence in particular.
What I found strange is that it seemed to be Communion without actually "communing" - as someone said, it felt like being taken to a restaurant and asked to admire the food being displayed in glass cases, before returning home without having eaten.
Where does this service come from and how is it regarded in traditions which include it?
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It was an eighteenth century RC development, I believe. I'm sure someone will be along with the details soon.
At a gut level I love Benediction. It does round off Evensong nicely. But obviously, its not everyone's cup of tea (including Orthodox and many RCs.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Top marks to your local A-Cs, BT, for having the chutzpah to put on Benediction as a United Service!
Actually, seriously, it's good to hear of a church saying 'this is what we do, share it' rather than 'here's a bit of something from everywhere (and probably not enough of any of them)'.
I well remember when I first encountered Benediction, when I was rather lower in my Eucharistic theology than I am now. What did strike me was the intense prayerfulness and adoration of it. Even if one only saw the Host as being symbolic of Christ, or a reminder of Him, it helped focus the sense of worship.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I'm sorry you were left feeling disappointed with Benediction. It goes back to well before the 18th century,but became very popular in Catholicism after the Council of Trent.
It is a given,which one doesn't argue with in Catholicism, that Christ is fully present in the Sacred Host. The consecrated Hosts are kept in a tabernacle to be taken to the Sick who cannot be present at the eucharist.(I'm sure you know all this)
Gradually it became popular to expose the Sacred Host at evening devotions.It does as Albertus said,focus our devotion.Remember that until the 1950s Mass was not celebrated in the evening.
The 39 Anglican Articles,if I am right,forbid the adoration of the Sacred Host.
Since Vatican 2 the rite of Benediction has become much less popular in RC churches,partly because Mass is celebrated in the evening also.
However many churches will have longish periods of silent prayer before the Sacred Host exposed in a monstrance.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Forthview gives a common, but not quite correct, reading of the XXXIX. I don't have the text before me, but IIRC, it reads 'was not by Christ instituted to be carried about or gazed upon' (at least that's the sense of it). Nobody of course would argue with that. It does NOT however read 'Christ said Don't Do It.' thus leaving an admittedly casuistric loophole for A-Cs to happily gallop through over the years.
Re the OP: in my parish in North Carolina, the Angelus was said immediately following the daily masses which began at 5:30 (so it was a few minutes late) and sung immediately following the Sunday 11 am High Mass, so also a few minutes late. Bells were rung.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
That's right on the 39 Articles, but the Black Rubric says that the bread and wine remain in their very natural substances and therefore may not be adored, for that were idolatry... I think most Anglo-Catholics ignore that though ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
That's right on the 39 Articles, but the Black Rubric says that the bread and wine remain in their very natural substances and therefore may not be adored, for that were idolatry... I think most Anglo-Catholics ignore that though
That's why St Thomas', Huron Street, in Toronto, is careful to call its Benediction service "Devotions," doesn't do the actual benediction with a monstrance (the Sacrament is under a veil on the high altar during the service), and instead of the traditional antiphon "Let us forever adore the most holy Sacrament" is sung "Let us adore Christ our Lord in the most holy Sacrament."
As an Anglo-Catholic in a parish that uses the traditional antiphon, I'd say the latter version above is what we really mean. Or at least what I really mean.
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L'organist
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Posted
posted by stonespring quote:
How often was it the Angelus? And why was it at the beginning of Mass?
Always the Angelus except in Eastertide up to Pentecost - then we sang the Regina Caeli.
No idea why it was at the beginning - that was the situation whe I arrived in the parish and I wasn't going to question (was young and green then!).
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Fr Weber
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
That's right on the 39 Articles, but the Black Rubric says that the bread and wine remain in their very natural substances and therefore may not be adored, for that were idolatry... I think most Anglo-Catholics ignore that though
O, that Extra Calvinisticum!
Because "the right hand of God" is a physical place with a zip code, amirite?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Ceremoniar
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Posted
At our parish (EF), we recite the Angelus at the end of the rosary, immediately before the Sunday High Mass, because that is at 11:30AM. The practice of reciting the Angelus at the end of Mass is not specifically AC; it is common at EF parishes, when the Mass begins or ends close to noon. Most Masses, however, do not end at that time.
I love, love, love Benediction. As has been stated here, the presence of evening Masses cut into the practice on Sundays. Though with many parishes having extended hours of Adoration now--some even have perpetual Adoration--one does see Benediction as part of that, though usually the simple form. Some parishes have Benediction as part of Lenten or Advent programs, or evenings when priests are preaching as part of a specific program.
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dj_ordinaire
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Posted
The local RC parishes have Benediction at the conclusion of the Corpus Christi procession which finishes in front of one of the nunneries and is followed by the Marian antiphon, then Evening Prayer in the sisters' chapel.
Regarding the Angelus being sung publically after Masses that end at noon or before ones which start at 6, this seems to be a real A-C peculiarity and I'd like to know where it came from. I suppose some very advanced clergy must have reasoned nobody would do such things by themselves without being led by example!
In England too my parish did it - said rather than sung during Lent, and replaced with the Regina Coeli in Eastertide.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Baptist Trainfan
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Top marks to your local A-Cs, BT, for having the chutzpah to put on Benediction as a United Service!
Actually, seriously, it's good to hear of a church saying 'this is what we do, share it' rather than 'here's a bit of something from everywhere (and probably not enough of any of them)'.
We agreed as a united group of ministers (CofE, Baptist, Methodist, URC but sadly not Catholic as he was unwell) that this was the way we wanted to go. We felt vindicated when the Bishop, in his sermon, referred disapprovingly to "ecumenical soup" in which all traditions are watered down to the lowest common denominator. But it does mean that, next year, the High Church folk must be ready to experience (say) Methodist worship.
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