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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Curl up with a copy of TS Eliot's Ash Wednesday.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
I was intending to attend an Ash Wednesday service tomorrow but find myself struggling with a horrible flu. (Thanks flu shot for nothing.) What does one do on this particular day if they find themselves providentially hindered?
If you actually have flu, that's your penance for the day right there. You might focus your prayer on explicitly joining your suffering to Christ's.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
If you actually have flu, stay in bed! You won't be able to get up anyway if it's really flu. Stay in bed, drink plenty of fluids, and look after yourself.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
If you're CofE, tay in bed and read morning or evening prayer by yourself, with the Commination.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
I had a look at the website of Christ church Bath as I recall once going into a church in Bath and finding a BCP HC in progress, with the priest in surplice and scarf at the North End, which was rather thrilling, and I wondered if this was that. But no, I find that it is, even more thrillingly, a proprietary chapel. Bath is exactly the sort of place which must have been full of them once. I wonder how many still exist?
I've just looked at their website too: what a shock! I've always associated Proprietary Chapels with BCP and snakes-belly churchmanship - clearly not in Bath!
It is odd. Bath I would think in the 18th century would have been full of proprietary chapels, where those taking the waters would have gone to listen to fashionable preachers. That the one that has survived is catholic is interesting, and I guess there must be a story there.
The Grosvenor Chapel in Mayfair is not low, and that's probably the best known surviving proprietary chapel. All Saint's Margaret Street started out as one. And I guess the Shrine at Walsingham is one, but I doubt it is actually licensed under the Proprietary Chapels Act.
I don't think the Grosvenor Chapel is a proprietary chapel. It's a chapel of ease in the parish of St George Hanover Square. The only proprietary chapel (I think) in the Diocese of London is St John's Downshire Hill in Hampstead.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Likely not in the same category (and certainly not covered by the same British legislation), but one of the parishes in my diocese began life when a local brewery baron took exception to the Tractarian airs of the first Lord Bishop of Montreal. Although its liturgy followed the BCP it had no affiliation at all with either the diocese or the C of E (as we then were), but was instead a privately-owned congregation of the Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion! It was not brought into the fold until after Molson's death.
[ 11. February 2016, 00:09: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
I was intending to attend an Ash Wednesday service tomorrow but find myself struggling with a horrible flu. (Thanks flu shot for nothing.) What does one do on this particular day if they find themselves providentially hindered?
Rome says it's not a holy day of obligation, though it gets better turnout than most of them. The 1979 BCP lists it as a Holy Day (akin to Annunciation, Visitation, or the feasts of the Apostles, inter alia) and as a Day of Special Devotion alongside the rest of Lent save Annunciation and non-festal Fridays. I don't know of any other church obligating anyone to attend Ash Wednesday services either.
I'd personally treat the occasion as analogous to being seriously ill on a Sunday. A comfortable cup of tea and Morning Prayer in bed it is.
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Likely not in the same category (and certainly not covered by the same British legislation), but one of the parishes in my diocese began life when a local brewery baron took exception to the Tractarian airs of the first Lord Bishop of Montreal. Although its liturgy followed the BCP it had no affiliation at all with either the diocese or the C of E (as we then were), but was instead a privately-owned congregation of the Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion! It was not brought into the fold until after Molson's death.
That reminds me of a chapel which existed- I think still does (Gamaliel or somebody might know- he's from that way)- in Monmouthshire. Founded in the C19 by Lady Llanover (the one who more or less invented 'traditional' Welsh costume as worn on St David's Day) as a Welsh-speaking chapel of the CofE, as it then was here; then after Lady Ll had a row with the diocese over something or the other, given to the Presbyterians on condition that they continued to use the BCP in Welsh; ownership retained by Lady Ll's heirs even after they converted to the RCC. So a chapel owned by a lay RC where Presbyterians worshipped according to the forms of the CofE!
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
So a chapel owned by a lay RC where Presbyterians worshipped according to the forms of the CofE!
And, to go full circle, most recently was holding services under the Church in Wales..
[ 11. February 2016, 10:21: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Well found- thank you!
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Lady Llanover, as well as being the wife of the man who may have given his name to Big Ben, also collected Welsh recipes.
Elizabeth David quotes her extensively. I bake her recipe for rice bread and at the moment we are salting down some duck legs. Welsh salt duck was one of her ideas that Elizabeth David liked very much.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
From the ODNB on Augusta, Lady Llanover
At Aber-carn, the school that Lady Llanover directly supervised taught through the medium of Welsh, and it was there also that she and her husband endowed an Anglican church, which was transferred to the Welsh Calvinistic Methodists in 1862 following the refusal of the vicar to conduct the services in the vernacular. At that time she personally supervised the preparation of a revised version of the Book of Common Prayer for use at the new church. A fervent protestant, she later endowed other Welsh dissenting chapels at Llanofer and Aber-carn. Her interest in the continuation of Welsh traditions led her to employ a resident harpist and to establish a harp manufactory at Llanofer.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Just for the heck of it. Then there is the URC in Port Sunlight.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
As evidenced by the discussion above, the odd byways of Anglican ecclesiastical organisation, such as Proprietary and Qualified chapels, can provide some mild fascination. Then there are peculiars or peculiers, royal or otherwise. In conversation a while back about churches in the centre of Cambridge with a friend reasonably well versed in church legal matters, St Edward King and Martyr cropped up. I was aware that its status is unusual. In a piece of mid 15th century property development, the church of St John Zachery was compulsorily purchased because Henry VI wanted the land on which it stood to build his new college. This church had been used for worship by Trinity Hall, even though there was a chapel within the precincts of the college itself. By way of recompense the king passed over to the Master of the college the right in perpetuity to appoint a chaplain (not an incumbent?) to Edward K&M. The college could then use that building for worship in lieu of the demolished church (its own chapel notwithstanding, presumably).
So much for history - but what is the status of the church now? The questionably (at best) reliable wikipedia reckons it a royal peculiar - because of the gift of appointment to the chaplaincy was made by the king, perhaps? The venerable archdeacon does not agree - here. My friend ruminated for a moment and then came up with his opinion - that the church is a 'donative'. The archdeacon's view is otherwise, but that apart, what is a 'donative'? As far as I can make out there isn't a great deal on the internet about this class of church, and what there is is not particularly helpful. Is anyone here better enlightened? What is the origin and rationale of a donative? Do any survive - other than the place in Cambridge, if indeed, pace his venerableness, it is one?
[ 14. February 2016, 19:48: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
St Thomas the Martyr Newcastle seems similar to St Edward's:
From Wiki
"The modern St Thomas the Martyr has no parish, but neither is it a Peculiar (ecclesiastical enclave), making it unique in the Church of England. It is governed by the Body Corporate (comprising the senior priest and Churchwardens) and ultimately through Acts of Parliament. It lies within the Diocese of Newcastle, the Archdeaconry of Northumberland and the Deanery of Newcastle. It was formally separated from the Hospital of St Mary Magdalene in 1978, but the senior priest of the church is still referred to as the Master."
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Just curious: did anyone do/hear the proclamation of the dates of moveable feasts today? How about blessing chalk? Eat king cake? Any other Epiphany traditions I'm forgetting?
Even though the feast is moved to Sunday in the U.S. we had kings' cake and hot chocolate after weekday mass on the 6th of January (Wednesday).
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
It is odd. Bath I would think in the 18th century would have been full of proprietary chapels, where those taking the waters would have gone to listen to fashionable preachers. That the one that has survived is catholic is interesting, and I guess there must be a story there.
From memory (rather hazy and distant memory):
It was built as a church without pew rents. At that time, the typical parish church charged pew rents, so if you couldn't pay you couldn't go to church. Hence there was a movement to build churches without pew rents so that poor servants could actually go to church. (I don't know whether the idea of providing free pews in ordinary churches crossed anyone's mind) I don't actually know why it was set up as a proprietary chapel and not a chapel of ease of the parish, but it was. As an aside, I think St Mary's Bourne Street is another example of a church built to not charge pew rents.
Anyway, Christ Church started off as a typical Old High Church setup. I think that at the time, Walcott parish, the parish it was in, was a similar style (but without any riff-raff cluttering up the pews of course). Then the patronage of Walcott was bought by the Simeon Trustees at some point in the mid 19th century, and relations between the 2 churches have been frosty ever since. Attempts have been made to convert Christ Church to a parish, but these have always floundered.
The broader picture is that there was a load of nonconformist activity in Bath (Wesley, the Countess of Huntingdon etc) so some anglo-catholic patronage society whose name I forget was buying up a lot of churches to provide a counterbalance. The Simeon Trustees stepped in to provide a counterbalance to the anglo-catholics, and the 2 of them ended up owning almost every parish in the city centre. In that environment, I'm guessing that neither side wanted a new neutral parish springing up.
That's about it; well recalled. Were you in Bath when I did the murder mystery pub crawl with Beau Nash, Wesley and the Countess?
From what I was told, I don't think there was active Anglo-catholic purchasing going on, simply that with the Oxford Movement flourishing Simeon's Trustees were determined to try to keep it out of the West Country. There's a good half-dozen Simeon's parishes in Bath, including the Abbey. There's no solid block of A-C patronage.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
That's about it; well recalled. Were you in Bath when I did the murder mystery pub crawl with Beau Nash, Wesley and the Countess?
Yes I was. That brings back memories.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
I listen regularly to Choral Evensong on the BBC radio 3 website...
The last 2 weeks I have noticed that the choir has enunciated "throughout all generations" (in the Magnificat) as "gener-ah-tee-ons".
Am I imagining things?
If not is this a London thing? (Both churches were London ones - Temple and St Batholomew the Great)
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I listen regularly to Choral Evensong on the BBC radio 3 website...
The last 2 weeks I have noticed that the choir has enunciated "throughout all generations" (in the Magnificat) as "gener-ah-tee-ons".
Am I imagining things?
If not is this a London thing? (Both churches were London ones - Temple and St Batholomew the Great)
I've heard similar pronunciations by choirs. There's also 'our prayers and supply-case-ee-ons'. It's a musicianship affectation and should be mocked as one.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I've heard similar pronunciations by choirs. There's also 'our prayers and supply-case-ee-ons'. It's a musicianship affectation and should be mocked as one.
Sometimes the rhythm as notated requires the archaic pronunciation. Apparently the composer expected that pronunciation and notated the rhythm accordingly. I wouldn't mock this. Another such archaism is the word Spirit on one note, to be pronounced something like "sprit."
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Sometimes - sometimes it is affectation. While I admire and respect what they do, I eventually had to give up listening to the Compline Choir broadcasts from Seattle Cathedral because I found them to be overly performed, without the natural speech-like delivery of plainsong - suffering from an excess of "musicianship", if you will.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Whatever it is, it's been around for at least 40+ years in most English cathedral choirs. Certainly not new or recent. By now it's surely a valid option on its own terms.
John
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Thanks everyone!
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Galilit quote:
I listen regularly to Choral Evensong on the BBC radio 3 website... The last 2 weeks I have noticed that the choir has enunciated "throughout all generations" (in the Magnificat) as "gener-ah-tee-ons". Am I imagining things? If not is this a London thing? (Both churches were London ones - Temple and St Batholomew the Great)
It all depends on the age of the music setting: music from the 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries frequently make the word "salvation" have four syllables and it is obvious from those manuscripts that survive that the use of a "shun" (or "shone") sound for the "tion" part of the word was unknown. In fact it is partly through music settings that people can see how pronunciation must have changed over the centuries.
No, its nothing to do with London: you can visit churches and cathedrals as far west as St David's and north as Durham and find the same pronunciation - which should, of course, be sung pro-nun-see-ay-see-on!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
What L'Organist said. There's nothing new or affected about it - it's just doing the music the way the composer wrote it. In fact, where you get the 5-syllable "generations" you usually get the 3-syllable "throughout" ("thuh-roo-out").
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I listen regularly to Choral Evensong on the BBC radio 3 website...
The last 2 weeks I have noticed that the choir has enunciated "throughout all generations" (in the Magnificat) as "gener-ah-tee-ons".
Am I imagining things?
If not is this a London thing? (Both churches were London ones - Temple and St Batholomew the Great)
I've heard similar pronunciations by choirs. There's also 'our prayers and supply-case-ee-ons'. It's a musicianship affectation and should be mocked as one.
In the case of the settings at the two services referred to, that is how the composers had set the words to music. When those settings were written a number of these latinate endings were still sounded in the way that the Latin had been. You can find it in verse of the period as well (e.g. 'salvation' in John Donne's sonnet 'Annunciation', or 'expansion' in his 'A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning").
I don't think it is common to find choirs which do this, unless the music they are singing demands it.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I went to Evensong at our Parish Church on Sunday, and they did that too.
Occasionally we sing anthems where it is clearly the only way to fit the words to the music.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
As others have commented, above, it depends on the text underlay. If the composer clearly intended for the "ti" to have its own syllable, then that's how it's done. It's the same sort of thing as the "-ed" ending taking its own syllable; if the composition requires it, then you do it, although you probably wouldn't in everyday speech.
Chant settings in the Hymnal 1940 don't make two separate syllables for "-tion," so it would be a rather silly affectation to insert it into them.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I fear that I have fallen for the silly affectation, having heard the Weather Report in plainchant. For the curious, here is the back story.
I recall being at meetings in my former life, and outing Anglicans of a certain vintage by referring to the Programme for Diversity Extenti-on.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Augustine: I'm being a pedant perhaps, but the King's Singers' rendition of the weather forecast is in Anglican chant: plainchant is another term for plainsong or Gregorian chant.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Augustine: I'm being a pedant perhaps, but the King's Singers' rendition of the weather forecast is in Anglican chant: plainchant is another term for plainsong or Gregorian chant.
I had always identified the two (Anglican & plainchant versus plainsong & Gregorian), so appreciate the correction.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Not pedantic any more than distinguishing jazz and rap.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
As Anglican chant is designed so that any sentence, irrespective of the number of syllables it contains, can be fitted to the chant, this way of singing words with '..tion' at the end is unnecessary for Anglican chant. So despite what others have said, I still maintain it is usually an affectation,
The only possible exception would be a tune written as an anthem at a time when such a word really was pronounced that way and which is set out in the composer's original manuscript showing '..tion' as two syllables with a separate note for each.
Anything composed that way more recently simply shifts the accusation of affectation from the choir's director to the composer.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Yes, I actually heard that one today (Byrd - King's College Cambridge choir). Which I'd not have noticed but Oblatus put me onto it above.
Also heard "let us not be led into tem-tay-tee-yon"
Don't you just love the passive - "Who? Us? Tempted?"
[ 25. February 2016, 17:58: Message edited by: Galilit ]
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Having had a chance to check, it confirms my original thought: the pronunciation of gen-er-ay-seeons was in the Magnificat and was down to the setting: in the case of The Temple Church it was the First Service by Thomas Morley (c1557-1602) and at St Bartholomew the Great (sung by the choir from Royal Holloway College) it was the Second Service by Orlando Gibbons (1583-1625).
The choice of setting (note, not chant for the Canticles) is where the pronunciation can be said to come from.
No one would sing "generations" that way in either plainchant or Anglican Chant.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
We had an elderly, ex-vicar's wife, ex-teacher as a neighbour when I was a child. She was terribly correct and pronounced words like that in her normal speech:
Ch-ris-ti-ans in 4 syllables,
con-gre-ga-sh-i-on as 6 syllables
p-ro-noun-ci-a-ci-on as 7 syllables
She must have been a Victorian child as she was older than both my grandparents. She spoke a version of received pronounciation in really deep dark rural countryside which tended to be behind the times pre-mass media, so was probably harking back to an earlier era. (I remember being fascinated and counting syllables.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
As well as the number of syllables, there's also the matter of the sh sound.
Current pronunciation would be gen-er-a-shun.
Is the archaic pronunciation "gen-er-er-a-SEE-on" or "gen-er-a-SHE-ON"? Or even "gen-er-a-TI-on"?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
IIRC, some spellings of the period indicate that '-tion' endings were pronounced '-SEE-on'
[ 26. February 2016, 10:21: Message edited by: BroJames ]
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
We don't play Shakespeare, and we don't conduct 1662 services using our attempts to mimic how we think people pronounced English in the sixteenth or seventeenth century. Indeed, if we did, some of us would undoubtedly be arguing whether the correct pronunciation for the BCP was as we claim English was spoken at the Restoration, or 100 years previously.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
We don't play Shakespeare, and we don't conduct 1662 services using our attempts to mimic how we think people pronounced English in the sixteenth or seventeenth century.
Some people do: see this. and navigate to "Original Pronvnciation".(This was featured on BBC "Newsnight" yesterday).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Music is a bit different, Enoch. When you change the way the text is sung, you change the piece.
There's lots of music up through the 19th century (and probably some 20th-century stuff as well) that syllabizes the past participial "-ed" ending. And of course, in performing Shakespeare those endings are normally pronounced when necessary to round out a line of iambic pentameter. Since we don't do that in spoken speech anymore (with a few exceptions), should we start changing them too?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
We don't play Shakespeare, and we don't conduct 1662 services using our attempts to mimic how we think people pronounced English in the sixteenth or seventeenth century.
I may be unduly sensitive in seeing your post as a response to mine immediately preceding it. Mine was purely a response to the one preceding it about which possible polysyllabic pronunciation of '-tion' might be appropriate when music written by (e.g.) Gibbons or Morley (or other composers of that general era) requires it.
I agree with you that the 1662 BCP does not, and Anglican chant, plainsong, or modern settings should not require such a pronunciation - and if they do, it strikes me too as an affectation.
[ 26. February 2016, 16:58: Message edited by: BroJames ]
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Some people do: see this. and navigate to "Original Pronvnciation".(This was featured on BBC "Newsnight" yesterday).
OP Shakespeare is great (and reveals a whole load of rude puns that pass you by if you have actors declaiming in RP).
I'd go to an OP 1662 service, and think it great fun, but it would be odd in the extreme to make that your regular form of worship.
As far as using early modern pronunciation in anthems and mass settings goes, I see less reason to translate a pronunciation to modern English than I do to translate from Latin or Greek to English.
If you are happy on occasion to sing the Kyrie in Greek, you have no cause to complain about "generations" with five syllables.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Should you sing Wesley's and Watts hymns in the original pronunciation? Seriously there is clear indication in the hymns that pronunciation has changed (rhymes and rhythms).
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
"Join" pronounced "jine"?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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