|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Church supply companies, who are far more influential in what apparel is used by clerics than many would realize ...
Not for 99% of Baptists. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Presumably East of Greenwich they wear anoraks.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Church supply companies, who are far more influential in what apparel is used by clerics than many would realize ...
Aside from the trends that have been around since the 1970s of stoles over chasubles, the cassock-alb, and futuristic, folksy, arts-and-crafts-y, child-friendly (showing faces of children, etc.), rainbow-colored, multiculturally-patterned, etc., vestments, a more recent reintroduction of more traditional vestment styles, and vestments marketed to female clergy, what other trends in vestments can be attributed to church supply companies? (I guess you could add confirmation stoles for laity to this list.)
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
]Aside from the trends that have been around since the 1970s of stoles over chasubles, the cassock-alb, and futuristic, folksy, arts-and-crafts-y, child-friendly (showing faces of children, etc.), rainbow-colored, multiculturally-patterned, etc., vestments, a more recent reintroduction of more traditional vestment styles, and vestments marketed to female clergy, what other trends in vestments can be attributed to church supply companies? (I guess you could add confirmation stoles for laity to this list.)
"Sarum" blue.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Confirmation stoles for laity? WTF? This is basically just the tatmongers looking for a new marketing oppportunity, isn't it?
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
I can gloomily report the introduction of baptismal candles at our church. They're not plush -- just a taper candle, in a box that you can write the date of the baptism and the name of the v/i/c/t/i/m on, but it's just another bit of useless detail. Everybody who is baptized gets one; the priest lights it from the Paschal candle and gives it to the candidate (or, in the case of babies, the parents). The very worst was, however, when one not-very-savvy new priest gave them the baptismal napkins. They are linen, and embroidered. At $40 a pop the Altar Guild set up a horrible yell.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I can gloomily report the introduction of baptismal candles at our church. They're not plush -- just a taper candle, in a box that you can write the date of the baptism and the name of the v/i/c/t/i/m on, but it's just another bit of useless detail. Everybody who is baptized gets one; the priest lights it from the Paschal candle and gives it to the candidate (or, in the case of babies, the parents). The very worst was, however, when one not-very-savvy new priest gave them the baptismal napkins. They are linen, and embroidered. At $40 a pop the Altar Guild set up a horrible yell.
Don't all churches give candidates baptismal candles these days? My impression is that they became prevalent about the same time as sharing the peace. I'd tend to regard not using them as being a bit behind the times in rather the same way as not having the peace. Both have a simple and obvious symbolism that it would strike me as a bit curmudgeonly to reject.
I've not encountered special napkins though. Babies traditionally have often been presented in a white christening robe, but these belong to the family, the baby arrives in them and they are very often passed down from generation to generation.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
The baptismal towels are to dry off the little brow, as the howling infant is passed back to the parent. Ours are prettily embroidered with a scallop shell. We don't have anywhere near enough, and some clever supplier is making paper ones that look very similar and cost lots less.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Church supply companies, who are far more influential in what apparel is used by clerics than many would realize ...
Not for 99% of Baptists.
Presumably East of Greenwich they wear anoraks.
And north of Watford, cloth caps.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Church supply companies, who are far more influential in what apparel is used by clerics than many would realize ...
Not for 99% of Baptists.
Presumably East of Greenwich they wear anoraks.
A certain Minister of my acquaintance conducted worship in a short-sleeved shirt and Hawaiian shorts.
Admittedly it was August Bank Holiday weekend.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Don't all churches give candidates baptismal candles these days?
No.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I can gloomily report the introduction of baptismal candles at our church. They're not plush -- just a taper candle, in a box that you can write the date of the baptism and the name of the v/i/c/t/i/m on, but it's just another bit of useless detail. Everybody who is baptized gets one; the priest lights it from the Paschal candle and gives it to the candidate (or, in the case of babies, the parents). The very worst was, however, when one not-very-savvy new priest gave them the baptismal napkins. They are linen, and embroidered. At $40 a pop the Altar Guild set up a horrible yell.
The custom of the baptismal candle appears in the Rituale Romanum of 1964 and is of considerably greater antiquity than that. It's not an invention of church supply vendors, although they've certainly taken advantage of the perceived need. The only difference is that whereas the candle used to be supplied by the baptizand's family, it is now purchased from a supplier.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
|
Posted
I can report that baptismal candles were in use (at least in some parishes) in the TEC Diocese of Chicago at least as early as 1960, and apparently earlier than that.
--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The baptismal towels are to dry off the little brow, as the howling infant is passed back to the parent. Ours are prettily embroidered with a scallop shell. We don't have anywhere near enough, and some clever supplier is making paper ones that look very similar and cost lots less.
We just use a purificator
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The custom of the baptismal candle appears in the Rituale Romanum of 1964 and is of considerably greater antiquity than that.
The instruction given the newly baptized is beautiful: "Take this burning candle as a reminder to keep your baptismal innocence. Obey God's commandments, so that when our Lord comes for the joyous wedding feast you may go forth to meet Him with all the saints in the halls of heaven, and be happy with Him forevermore."
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I can report that baptismal candles were in use (at least in some parishes) in the TEC Diocese of Chicago at least as early as 1960, and apparently earlier than that.
Indeed. I handed one to the celebrant at the appropriate moment in the Great Vigil this year. Right after sticking my thumb into the deepest part of the chrism when I handed him the little shell full of invisible oil. Which was OK because that hand had a glove of wax on it from holding a candle throughout the prophecies and not being very graceful with the ups and downs of the collects.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I can report that baptismal candles were in use (at least in some parishes) in the TEC Diocese of Chicago at least as early as 1960, and apparently earlier than that.
Indeed. I handed one to the celebrant at the appropriate moment in the Great Vigil this year. Right after sticking my thumb into the deepest part of the chrism when I handed him the little shell full of invisible oil. Which was OK because that hand had a glove of wax on it from holding a candle throughout the prophecies and not being very graceful with the ups and downs of the collects.
And after all these years!
--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Double posted with Fr W.
I seem to remember chasuble/albs in Vanheems catalogues in the 70s.
At least evangelical bishops actually wear chasubles now rather than copes.
I've just sen the chasubles in the Church Times - they were made in bulk for concelebrants at an open air eucharist in Zambia - Anglican Consultative Council.
[ 16. April 2016, 10:01: Message edited by: leo ]
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
|
Posted
Does anyone know how come the OT canticle is put between the psalms, but the NT canticle comes after them in the Liturgy of the Hours?
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I wondered about that for years.
In the pre Vatican 2 breviary and the Rule of St Benedict, there is no NT canticle at Evening Prayer.
There is however an OT canticle at Morning Prayer which is followed by the praise psalms, 148, 149 and 150. The service gets the name "lauds" from these psalms.
The revised Divine Office is wondnerful in many ways, but it replaces the three praise psalms with a selection of psalms throughout the psalter of a praise nature.
The OT caanticle remains in it previous place, between the regular psalms and the praise psalms. But the structure does look odd.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
|
Posted
Thanks.
--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I've just sen the chasubles in the Church Times - they were made in bulk for concelebrants at an open air eucharist in Zambia - Anglican Consultative Council.
I apologies to dyfig for my lousy spelling.
Even more extraordinary than an evangelical wearing a chasuble, is having concelebration at other than a FiF mass.
I like concelebration (far from being clericalist, it dilutes the clericalism, IMHO) but I've never seen an Aff Cath or "liberal" catholic place do it.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I like concelebration (far from being clericalist, it dilutes the clericalism, IMHO) but I've never seen an Aff Cath or "liberal" catholic place do it. [/QB]
It's done quite often at the Atonement, Chicago.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Glad to hear that, oblatus.
My lousy spelling includes getting dyfrig's name wrong.
Apologies.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I like concelebration (far from being clericalist, it dilutes the clericalism, IMHO) but I've never seen an Aff Cath or "liberal" catholic place do it.
We used to have it at my place (of which you my well be familiar ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) under the previous incumbent
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Confirmation stoles for laity? WTF? This is basically just the tatmongers looking for a new marketing oppportunity, isn't it?
A retired RC priest lamented that at my own confirmation, which I did as an adult, I did not have a red stole on. They are the norm in some RC parishes in the US, especially the ones in dioceses where confirmation happens when children are older and closer to high school graduation. I have even seen tiny white stoles for kids coming up for first communion. I think it's odd that these things are most popular in the RCC, which makes pains to point out how the priesthood of all the baptized is distinct from the ministerial priesthood of ordained priests and bishops, but, given so many other trends of post-Vatican II Roman Catholicism, it's not that surprising.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I like concelebration (far from being clericalist, it dilutes the clericalism, IMHO) but I've never seen an Aff Cath or "liberal" catholic place do it.
I've seen it at a fair few of the more Rome-looking women-friendly Anglo-Catholic places. The St Albans Pilgrimage is the obvious one, with more than 100 concelebrants. Anglican Catholic Future's festival included concelebration on at least one occasion, though oddly it was restricted to bishops.
I also like concelebration for the same reason: it subverts the "Russian doll" model of ordination. Priests act as priests, deacons as deacons, laity as laity: each has their own place and each is equally important. A priest isn't a layperson-plus, but a separate vocation.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
... I also like concelebration for the same reason: it subverts the "Russian doll" model of ordination. Priests act as priests, deacons as deacons, laity as laity: each has their own place and each is equally important. A priest isn't a layperson-plus, but a separate vocation.
Not sure I can follow what you mean by "Russian doll" model. I definitely disagree with you though, if you are saying that a priest is not also a lay person. However high one's understanding of orders, there is nobody who isn't also a lay person, not even a bishop.
In the same way, both priests and bishops continue to be deacons. Orders are cumulative, not separate.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
"Lay person" is not an order.
I think what Enoch means is "a member of the baptized", which is indeed the highest vocation in the church. The other orders are only there to assist the baptized's ministry.
"Lay person" to me only means "not ordained".
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
PS
I'd far rather see a spare priest sitting in mufti in the congregation with the rest of the body of the baptized or concelbrating in a chasuble in the sanctuary than sitting "robed and in the sanctuary" doing nothing in particular.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
"Lay person" is not an order.
I think what Enoch means is "a member of the baptized", which is indeed the highest vocation in the church. The other orders are only there to assist the baptized's ministry.
"Lay person" to me only means "not ordained".
No - all the baptised are 'o laos - the people of God - so bishops are laypeople.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
A retired RC priest lamented that at my own confirmation, which I did as an adult, I did not have a red stole on. They are the norm in some RC parishes. . . . I have even seen tiny white stoles for kids coming up for first communion.
I remember wearing a white arm band (not stole) for first communion and a red one for confirmation. See here.
[ 18. April 2016, 11:51: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
"Lay person" is not an order.
I think what Enoch means is "a member of the baptized", which is indeed the highest vocation in the church. The other orders are only there to assist the baptized's ministry.
"Lay person" to me only means "not ordained".
No - all the baptised are 'o laos - the people of God - so bishops are laypeople.
That's where the word comes from, not what it means. (Etymological fallacy.)
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Quite. "The baptised" is a positive description - "lay" here means precisely non ordained.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Ordained persons are ineligible to stand as Lay Chair of Synods or as Lay Members of General Synod in the C of E.
Which would suggest the C of E takes "lay" to mean non-ordained, as I said.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Confirmation stoles for laity? WTF? This is basically just the tatmongers looking for a new marketing oppportunity, isn't it?
A retired RC priest lamented that at my own confirmation, which I did as an adult, I did not have a red stole on. They are the norm in some RC parishes in the US, especially the ones in dioceses where confirmation happens when children are older and closer to high school graduation. I have even seen tiny white stoles for kids coming up for first communion. I think it's odd that these things are most popular in the RCC, which makes pains to point out how the priesthood of all the baptized is distinct from the ministerial priesthood of ordained priests and bishops, but, given so many other trends of post-Vatican II Roman Catholicism, it's not that surprising.
That's just clericalism by the back door.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
This RC points out the the division between lay and ordained does not exist in the NT.
I agree. Would you not therefore agree with me that "the baptized" is a preferable term to "the laity"?
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
For Catholics, Lumen Gentium defines the term laity thus:
quote:
31. The term laity is here understood to mean all the faithful except those in holy orders and those in the state of religious life specially approved by the Church.
As for 'confirmation stoles,' I've never seen them. In this diocese, we have a dress code for confirmation and they would not be permitted.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
[QB] For Catholics, Lumen Gentium defines the term laity thus:
[QUOTE]
31. The term laity is here understood to mean all the faithful except those in holy orders and those in the state of religious life specially approved by the Church.
What about religious who are not in holy orders? Are they or are they not 'lay'? If if not, what?
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
"Lay" in those terms is all those who are not A in holy orders and B in the religious life.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
[QB] For Catholics, Lumen Gentium defines the term laity thus:
[QUOTE]
31. The term laity is here understood to mean all the faithful except those in holy orders and those in the state of religious life specially approved by the Church.
What about religious who are not in holy orders? Are they or are they not 'lay'? If if not, what?
In our diocese we have a religious sister who is also a Reader, so that implies (to me at least) that she is regarded as a lay person.
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What about religious who are not in holy orders? Are they or are they not 'lay'? If if not, what?
According to this definition, they are not lay, they are religious. It's not the only definition operative. Even the current Code of Canon Law uses 'lay' at points to mean baptized but not ordained. There are multiple definitions of the word floating around, even in official ecclesial documents.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What about religious who are not in holy orders? Are they or are they not 'lay'? If if not, what?
According to this definition, they are not lay, they are religious. It's not the only definition operative. Even the current Code of Canon Law uses 'lay' at points to mean baptized but not ordained. There are multiple definitions of the word floating around, even in official ecclesial documents.
A related but not exactly identical topic is the "nuptial" vocation of male non-ordained religious and voluntarily celibate laypeople who are not part of any religious order. The RCC has of late emphasized that everyone has a purpose of being part of a spousal relationship, even if that relationship is not in married life. So priests are married to the Church and female religious are married to Christ. But what about male non-ordained religious and celibate laypeople? (Male permanent deacons, btw, are by design almost always married or widowed, although very few are ordained who have decided to spend life in celibacy so they belong in this ambiguous category too when it comes to nuptial purpose.) I know it's a non-liturgical tangent and not worth discussing at length here, but there is a similar confusion of terms as to categories of people.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
That is before you get to Reformed Elders. I am still trying how to figure out filling in the forms for that one. By Reformed Church tradition Elders are both "Ordained" and "Lay"
"Lay" here meaning part of the congregation, not ordained to Word and Sacrament (are ordained to Ruling and Serving), not usually theologically trained beyond the local congregation, not paid, do not usually lead worship but do have pastoral responsibilities. A local appointment that is recognised by the denomination.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - all the baptised are 'o laos - the people of God - so bishops are laypeople.
I wonder if this is a difference between the CofE and the RCC or those who take their theology from it. Whatever Basilica may claim about Leo's reasoning as being based on the etymological fallacy, what Leo posted is what I understand to be the normal Anglican take on this, i.e. the etymology is regarded as making a clear statement of theology, not a fallacy.
I think I've read somewhere that the Orthodox view is the same. Is there an Orthodox shipmate who can answer this one.
It is also, certainly, as I said earlier, the standard view in the CofE that holy orders are cumulative. So all bishops and priests remain deacons with a deacon's calling to serve.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
Traditionally, the RC view has been that the orders are cumulative as well--hence the bishop's vesting in tunicle and dalmatic underneath his chasuble.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
And one which "sticks". Unlike Baptist deacons, who cease to be deacons once their time of service is over, Reformed elders (at least in the URC) are ordained for life. That means that most churches have several "non-serving Elders" in the congregation, which always puzzles me a bit.
But then I'm a Baptist!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Unlike Baptist deacons, who cease to be deacons once their time of service is over, Reformed elders (at least in the URC) are ordained for life. That means that most churches have several "non-serving Elders" in the congregation, which always puzzles me a bit.
That is the case in all Presbyterian denominations with which I am familiar.
I would note, though, that "non-serving" means not serving on the (Kirk) Session/Elders' Meeting/consistory. At least in PC(USA) polity, it does not foreclose active involvement in other areas requiring that one be an elder. For example, I am not currently on Session, but I have recently served on a presbytery commission. (Unlike committees, only ministers and elders may serve on a commission, which has authority to act on behalf of the entire presbytery.)
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
