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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
That is before you get to Reformed Elders. I am still trying how to figure out filling in the forms for that one. By Reformed Church tradition Elders are both "Ordained" and "Lay"
"Lay" here meaning part of the congregation, not ordained to Word and Sacrament (are ordained to Ruling and Serving), not usually theologically trained beyond the local congregation, not paid, do not usually lead worship but do have pastoral responsibilities. A local appointment that is recognised by the denomination.
Indeed, which at least in my neck of the Reformed woods, leads some to suggest that the clergy–laity distinction doesn't really fit us at all.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
[QB] For Catholics, Lumen Gentium defines the term laity thus:
[QUOTE]
31. The term laity is here understood to mean all the faithful except those in holy orders and those in the state of religious life specially approved by the Church.
What about religious who are not in holy orders? Are they or are they not 'lay'? If if not, what?
In our diocese we have a religious sister who is also a Reader, so that implies (to me at least) that she is regarded as a lay person.
Just to confuse things, readers or lectors have in the past been a minor order in parts of Anglican Africa (I'm not sure of the current situation). In Anglican canon law, non-clergy monastics are, as far as I can figure out, lay persons under vows in community. In Canada, our few religious-order clergy are members of the order of clergy in diocesan synods, but their unordained homies are not.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - all the baptised are 'o laos - the people of God - so bishops are laypeople.
I wonder if this is a difference between the CofE and the RCC or those who take their theology from it. Whatever Basilica may claim about Leo's reasoning as being based on the etymological fallacy, what Leo posted is what I understand to be the normal Anglican take on this, i.e. the etymology is regarded as making a clear statement of theology, not a fallacy.
That was purely about the idea that clergy are actually laity, because all belong to the laos. That's certainly not the standard Anglican view: laity are, by definition, the not-clergy.
quote:
I think I've read somewhere that the Orthodox view is the same. Is there an Orthodox shipmate who can answer this one.
I'm not Orthodox (I'm a CofE priest), but my understanding is that, liturgically, once a priest is so ordained he would never again act as a deacon.
quote:
It is also, certainly, as I said earlier, the standard view in the CofE that holy orders are cumulative. So all bishops and priests remain deacons with a deacon's calling to serve.
A subject that is always debated around Chrism masses – should the priests present speak the deacons' vow? (A side topic that I won't address.)
I'm not sure that is a terribly historical view – in that the idea of a deacon in the current understanding is fairly new to the CofE. But I agree it's the version that's fairly standard in the CofE, hanging on from the Roman Catholic view. The modern Catholic view is to emphasise that priests are priests, deacons are deacons and laity are laity, hence the focus on concelebration as the norm (see GIRM 114).
Similarly, the bishop's vesting in dalmatic under the chasuble is now seen as representing the fullness of orders he holds and their unity, rather than the idea that he is simultaneously deacon, priest and bishop. It's a change in emphasis, not doctrine, of course.
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
I want to have a copy of the "Saint Dunstan's Plainsong Hymnal". No luck, so far. Amazon says the Psalter is available, but the hymnal is unavailable. Could anyone suggest a source? Thanks.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
You've searched all the usual sites: Amazon, Ebay, abe.books?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Would it be worth contacting the Community of St Mary in Kenosha directly?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
I want to have a copy of the "Saint Dunstan's Plainsong Hymnal". No luck, so far. Amazon says the Psalter is available, but the hymnal is unavailable. Could anyone suggest a source? Thanks.
Is this it?
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
It is! Bless you, and many thanks.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
It is! Bless you, and many thanks.
You're welcome, and I'm very glad you asked about this, because I was unaware of it. On finding it, I can see it's potentially very useful.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
As far as I know, the St Dunstan's Psalter is a production of the Antiochene Orthodox (Western Rite), and unrelated to the Plainsong Hymnal.
The Psalter is very good, though--and besides including the psalms set to Sarum tones also includes plainsong settings for the canticles, the ordinary, and the Marian antiphons, as well as notes on ceremonial. A good investment.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Because I am the sewer and mender on our Altar Guild, the appeal has come to me, and now I'm coming to you.
I am ISO an emblem, to sew onto the bottom of a tippet. If you click around on this product page you can see a tippet with the shield of the Episcopal church at the end of it.
I am in search of a similar emblem, only it needs to be that of the church of St. George's in Baghdad. If you go to my Pinterest page you can see their emblem. (Ignore the photograph of the knitted hat.) I am almost certain that the church does not make their own emblem for sale -- I am certain they have more important things to do in Baghdad.
Does anyone know where I might buy such a thing, to sew onto a tippet?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Various vestment supply houses would be a possibility. I know that Almy's (in the US) and likely Wippell's stock certain shield-type patches to be affixed to tippets. They probably do not stock the particular one you are seeking, but possibly would be able to make one up, however, that sort of custom work might be expensive. If you have access to a shop that customizes school uniforms or golf shirts, that might be a possibility, but you would need to supply a sharp image of the design you want.
BTW, the Blessed Percy said quite firmly that tippets (or scarves, as he called them) should be PLAIN, and not adorned with shields, crosses or battle ribbons.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Whether it -ought- to be done is not in the Altar Guild's purview. The rector wants it done, and so we're off to the races. He's the one with the theology degree, let him worry about it.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Canons are allowed to adorn their scarves with the cathedral's coast of arms.
Maybe Percy was jealous ecause he didn't get to be a canon?
But Blessed Percy was a canon, collated to his stall at Westminster in 1931!!
AFAIK scarf-adornment came to be practised, originally primarily by former military chaplains, after WWI. I have only known canon-brandishing from the 1980s, but perhaps others have seen it before then.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Because I am the sewer and mender on our Altar Guild, the appeal has come to me, and now I'm coming to you.
I am ISO an emblem, to sew onto the bottom of a tippet. If you click around on this product page you can see a tippet with the shield of the Episcopal church at the end of it.
I am in search of a similar emblem, only it needs to be that of the church of St. George's in Baghdad. If you go to my Pinterest page you can see their emblem. (Ignore the photograph of the knitted hat.) I am almost certain that the church does not make their own emblem for sale -- I am certain they have more important things to do in Baghdad.
Does anyone know where I might buy such a thing, to sew onto a tippet?
The emblem is the arms of the Anglican Diocese of Cyprus and the Gulf. Clerical outfitters such as Wippell's supply that sort of thing for preaching scarves. Maybe the diocese can help, or Wippell's. You probably know that there are also online embroidered badge services, but I don't know what price they might be.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
So would the scarf in the pic (I can't access it) belong to soemone who was a canon of one of the diocese's cathedrals?
I take your point, Brenda, that you feel that it's not for you to argue with the Rector about what goes on the tippet- but surely it's a bit iffy, if not actually forbidden somewhere, to adorn your robes in a way which suggests that you are something that you are not (i.e. a canon of a particular cathedral)? A bit like looking at the hood of a degree which is not your own and thinking 'oh, that's more attractive than my hood, I'll get the Altar Guild to run me one up'?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
I second that, Albertus: is he a Canon of the Diocese of Cyprus and the Gulf? If not, why does he want to look like one?
[ 29. April 2016, 12:50: Message edited by: Offeiriad ]
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Oh, he's a canon -- Canon Andrew White, of St. George's in Baghdad. I forget what he's doing or becoming at our church, however. Cannot find the weekly leaflet.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Oh, he's coming to your church? Wow. Entirely appropriate then.
I remember him when he was a vicar in Balham (S London), twenty-odd years ago. He was very well respected even then.
I should ask the Diocese of Cyprus & The Gulf where they get theirbadges from, if Wippell's haven't got one for you.
[ 29. April 2016, 13:14: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Oh, now that's a good idea. I have also emailed Wippels, in a spirit of excitement and optimism. Almy's, their American equivalent, naturally could do nothing.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Canon Andrew White is a very well known person. But unless this is being prepared as a gift for him, which he can take away with him, wouldn't it be a bit odd for your vicar to prepare a special tippet and expect you to go to a great deal of effort, for a single occasion. Is he going to wear it or your vicar? If he's going to wear it, he might have one already. If your vicar is going to wear it, perhaps he shouldn't be doing. It's a bit like saying that because our guest preacher has a Cambridge DD, although I've only got 5 GCSEs, I'm going to put on the academic dress of one to welcome him or her.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Sorry, I don't know. I am down here at the bottom of the totem pole. What they're doing up there at the top is on them.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - all the baptised are 'o laos - the people of God - so bishops are laypeople.
I wonder if this is a difference between the CofE and the RCC or those who take their theology from it. Whatever Basilica may claim about Leo's reasoning as being based on the etymological fallacy, what Leo posted is what I understand to be the normal Anglican take on this, i.e. the etymology is regarded as making a clear statement of theology, not a fallacy.
That was purely about the idea that clergy are actually laity, because all belong to the laos. That's certainly not the standard Anglican view: laity are, by definition, the not-clergy.
Quite so.
The Greek word despota is the common term of affection and respect for a bishop as a father and figure of authority. Whatever one might think of one's bishop, it would be silly to argue that the English word despot means the same thing, simply because of its etymology. The same applies to laos: we all know what it means but that doesn't dictate how the word laity is used and understood in English.
quote:
quote:
I think I've read somewhere that the Orthodox view is the same. Is there an Orthodox shipmate who can answer this one.
I'm not Orthodox (I'm a CofE priest), but my understanding is that, liturgically, once a priest is so ordained he would never again act as a deacon.
Right again.
In a similar way, a bishop would never serve as a priest. True, there may be times when a full Hierarchical Liturgy isn't possible due to limited resources or other considerations but even then some of the elements of the episcopal ceremonial and functions will be employed.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Lincoln Imp
Apprentice
# 17123
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Canon Andrew White is a very well known person. But unless this is being prepared as a gift for him, which he can take away with him, wouldn't it be a bit odd for your vicar to prepare a special tippet and expect you to go to a great deal of effort, for a single occasion. Is he going to wear it or your vicar? If he's going to wear it, he might have one already.
Andrew White has come to our town on several occasions, Anglican and Baptist churches, and given talks in front of all and sundry. I can assure you that he brought his own vestments for the occasion. Mine was a high-Anglican parish, and he wore his own white stole with the St. G's Cath badge and his own embroidered cotta-alb. Even more interestingly it was Lent and our vicar wore a purple chasuble even though AW was the celebrant. For civic and Baptist occasions AW wore a bow tie, check shirt and blazer. It is likely that he has his own scarf/ tippet with badge for a low church outfit.
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There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds. (Tennyson)
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
For civic and Baptist occasions AW wore a bow tie...
A real one, I trust.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Perhaps the tipper duly adorned is intended as a gift for Canon White.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I could only wish our Rector were giving us more than two weeks to pull the rabbit out of the hat. He seems to believe we can spin gold out of straw. Which on occasion we have done of course. There was that horrid wedding when no one in the bridal party thought to try the flower girl's gown onto the child in question until ten minutes before the service. I had that period of time to turn up six inches on a satin gown. A roll of scotch tape should form part of the tool kit of every wedding, did you know? If the hem fell down the moment they recessed down the aisle it's no problem of mine, and if tape had failed I would have resorted to a stapler with shedding a tear.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
St George's Baghdad is not a cathedral. The diocese of Cyprus and the Gulf has two cathedrals: St Paul's, Nicosia and St Christopher's Bahrain.
I can't find from the web site where Canon White has his stall and indeed he may be an honourary canon of a cathedral in another diocese.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
He was a residentiary Canon of Coventry at one time.
My impression of him was that he was an Evangelical who, rather pleasingly, looked like a posh A-C. But I have never seen him officiating in church.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Edit window closed: Coventry is the only canonry that he lists in Who's Who. Don't have access to Crockford.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lincoln Imp
Apprentice
# 17123
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
quote:
I think I've read somewhere that the Orthodox view is the same. Is there an Orthodox shipmate who can answer this one.
I'm not Orthodox (I'm a CofE priest), but my understanding is that, liturgically, once a priest is so ordained he would never again act as a deacon.
Right again.
In a similar way, a bishop would never serve as a priest. True, there may be times when a full Hierarchical Liturgy isn't possible due to limited resources or other considerations but even then some of the elements of the episcopal ceremonial and functions will be employed.
And yet, ABC Justin quite happily and very deliberately served as Deacon to the female presiding priest at the 2014 Eucharist of Thanksgiving (a tautology!) for 20 years of female priests in the UK. He even wore a Dalmatic.
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There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds. (Tennyson)
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
quote:
I think I've read somewhere that the Orthodox view is the same. Is there an Orthodox shipmate who can answer this one.
I'm not Orthodox (I'm a CofE priest), but my understanding is that, liturgically, once a priest is so ordained he would never again act as a deacon.
Right again.
In a similar way, a bishop would never serve as a priest. True, there may be times when a full Hierarchical Liturgy isn't possible due to limited resources or other considerations but even then some of the elements of the episcopal ceremonial and functions will be employed.
And yet, ABC Justin quite happily and very deliberately served as Deacon to the female presiding priest at the 2014 Eucharist of Thanksgiving (a tautology!) for 20 years of female priests in the UK. He even wore a Dalmatic.
Thereby proving that one doesn't need to have an ounce of liturgical understanding to be Archbishop of Canterbury!
(From here was then to follow a long rant about how far too often the liturgy is used to make gestures and express personal preferences without any consideration for the connection between what we do and what we believe. But I thought better of posting it.)
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Showing not much liturgical understanding, perhaps- but a good deal of humility. I'd call that a very acceeptable deviation from the strict norm, on a particular occasion.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Those who complain about the Archbishop of Canterbury deaconing are very similar to those who complained about Pope Francis washing the wrong sort of feet. Indeed, it's only the fact that these are leaders in different churches which suggests that the complainers might not actually be the very same people.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
quote:
I think I've read somewhere that the Orthodox view is the same. Is there an Orthodox shipmate who can answer this one.
I'm not Orthodox (I'm a CofE priest), but my understanding is that, liturgically, once a priest is so ordained he would never again act as a deacon.
Right again.
In a similar way, a bishop would never serve as a priest. True, there may be times when a full Hierarchical Liturgy isn't possible due to limited resources or other considerations but even then some of the elements of the episcopal ceremonial and functions will be employed.
And yet, ABC Justin quite happily and very deliberately served as Deacon to the female presiding priest at the 2014 Eucharist of Thanksgiving (a tautology!) for 20 years of female priests in the UK. He even wore a Dalmatic.
When did ABC Justin become an Orthodox bishop?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Bottom line is a deacon is a deacon: once priested you remain a priest, whether you act as a deacon for a service, stay as Little-Snoring-on-the-Slumber for 50 years or become Archbishop of Canterbury.
Maybe we in the CofE have lost sight of this when we've accepted the tautology of people describing the service at which a priest becomes a bishop as an ordination when the correct term is a consecration.
As for whether or not it is 'fitting' for a bishop or archbishop to act as deacon at a service - surely that is showing proper humility and collegiality, very much in the spirit of the Lord.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Showing not much liturgical understanding, perhaps- but a good deal of humility. I'd call that a very acceeptable deviation from the strict norm, on a particular occasion.
I'd agree. For that one particular occasion it was right to have a woman president. Even liturgically appropriate.
In the old days he could have worn a cope and sat in a fald stool.
Ritual Notes gave extensive directions.
PS Scrumps is quite right too. Orthodox practice does not necessarily apply.
[ 30. April 2016, 11:35: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
Eucharist of Thanksgiving (a tautology!)
a tautology, incidentally, not unlike that enshrined in the title pages of the NZ Anglican Prayer Book, where the first eucharistic order is called "thanksgiving of the people of God."
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
It's not, as a Eucharistic Liturgy in a Prayer Book, likely to be the "thanksgiving of the lambs of satan," nor the Pisstaking of the Prunes of Demeter
The second order is called "thanksgiving for creation and redemption" ... because of course that would never normally be a part of a Eucharistic prayer ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
The third is so abysmally bad I try not to go there. And there's a couple more scattered randomly around the book.
Oh, but I digress.
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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lincoln Imp
Apprentice
# 17123
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
quote:
I think I've read somewhere that the Orthodox view is the same. Is there an Orthodox shipmate who can answer this one.
I'm not Orthodox (I'm a CofE priest), but my understanding is that, liturgically, once a priest is so ordained he would never again act as a deacon.
Right again.
In a similar way, a bishop would never serve as a priest. True, there may be times when a full Hierarchical Liturgy isn't possible due to limited resources or other considerations but even then some of the elements of the episcopal ceremonial and functions will be employed.
And yet, ABC Justin quite happily and very deliberately served as Deacon to the female presiding priest at the 2014 Eucharist of Thanksgiving (a tautology!) for 20 years of female priests in the UK. He even wore a Dalmatic.
When did ABC Justin become an Orthodox bishop?
So none of this has anything to do with ontology and the indelible character of a priest/ deacon/ bishop which is shared RC/ Anglican and orthodox theology? What then?
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There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds. (Tennyson)
Posts: 30 | Registered: May 2012
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
This conversation reminds me a card I got made by a third-grader after my priestly ordination, which read:
quote:
Happy Priest Hood! You're still part dicn.
// I'll get my cope...
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
So none of this has anything to do with ontology and the indelible character of a priest/ deacon/ bishop which is shared RC/ Anglican and orthodox theology? What then?
I wasn't making a doctrinal statement but rather confirming and expanding Basilica's example from Orthodox practice. I was confused when an example of an Anglican bishop was seemingly given to counter a point being made about Orthodox practice.
However, on the point of doctrine, is it actually the case that the "indelible character" idea is shared? I had thought this a particularly Latin way of looking at it.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I have a question about the gradual hymn in Anglican worship. I have always known a hymn to be sung immediately before the reading of the gospel. However this week I happened to be at a different church where a hymn was sung instead before the reading from St Paul's letter to the Romans.
There were 3 readings, no Psalm.
What is the difference between these two formats ?
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What is the difference? Well, it largely comes down to custom.
Before Series III (!) there was never an Old Testament reading at a communion service so most churches had a hymn betwixt Epistle and Gospel - those with a broader musical range might sing a psalm instead.
When 3 readings came in it was envisaged that a psalm would go between OT and NT readings - I think it was thought that a responsorial psalm would be within the compass of most parishes - but in many churches they either put in another hymn or moved the hymn from before the Gospel to before the NT reading, maybe because they put in sung Gospel acclamations.
It all comes back to the question of local usage and custom which can differ hugely from place to place and can result in what an outside would think of as bizarre: for example the church I found that had the Lord's Prayer twice - once in traditional language at the end of the intercessions and again in modern language before the Agnus Dei. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Not an Anglican, but I wonder if that hymn before the Pauline reading was meant to be the psalm. Was the text a paraphrase of a psalm text?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Not an Anglican, but I wonder if that hymn before the Pauline reading was meant to be the psalm. Was the text a paraphrase of a psalm text?
Coming from a metrical psalm tradition, that's what I wondered. Our hymnals are usually good about designating a text as a psalm—"God is Our Refuge and Our Strength (Psalm 46)", for example—but in my experience other hymnals may not do this as much.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I have a question about the gradual hymn in Anglican worship. I have always known a hymn to be sung immediately before the reading of the gospel.
If you have a gospel procession with lights and incense, you need a hymn to get the stoking up and movement done.
It's called 'the gradual' because the various ministers come dowen the steps during it.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Not an Anglican, but I wonder if that hymn before the Pauline reading was meant to be the psalm. Was the text a paraphrase of a psalm text?
Yes, that's normally been the case when I've seen that done. Other churches either use the hymn as the gradual or don't have one in the middle of the readings at all. As Leo says, this often depends on how elaborate their Gospel procession is, and how much time is needed to prepare it (although a plainchant Alleluia and proper gradual can actually provide more time than you would think!)
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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