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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Attitudes like that ensure that the C of E will continue to shrink.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Attitudes like that ensure that the C of E will continue to shrink.
In my case, mentioned upthread, it wasn't the C of E (though it was a church of the Anglican Communion).
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I'm in possession of a liturgical text that contains a rubric referring to "the hymn of Notker Balbulus". I understand that a number of texts are attributed to Notker the Stammerer but, as no incipit is given, I'm not sure exactly what this refers to. Does anyone have any ideas?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Obviously taking their cue from ++ Justin who handles a thurible with all the grace and fluency of a duck perfoming musket drill.
Surely the more appropriate comparison is with a dog walking on its hind legs? ('It's not that one expects to see it done well, but...') ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
At one time Media Vita was attributed to Notker. Maybe this is what the book is referring to?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Albertus' comment on ++Justin's handling of a thurible is surely much more gracious than L'organist's acid remark. Not everyone has the advantage of a High Church upbringing, and credit should be duly given to those willing to step out of their comfort zone....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
At one time Media Vita was attributed to Notker. Maybe this is what the book is referring to?
Thank you, Fr Weber.
This would make sense as it is given as a seasonal variation for use in Lent.
That helps.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Bishop's Finger quote:
Albertus' comment on ++Justin's handling of a thurible is surely much more gracious than L'organist's acid remark. Not everyone has the advantage of a High Church upbringing, and credit should be duly given to those willing to step out of their comfort zone....
It has nothing to do with 'upbringing' and everything to do with being prepared to take on every element of the job and get it right. Being unable to perform properly one the ceremonial functions of office after nearly 4 years in post displays an arrogance and unwillingness to learn/ adapt that is worrying.
Am I being unfair? You may think so, but if you or I had shown a similar unpreparedness to perform in a job competently we would have been warned about it, and a subsequent lack of improvement would have brought about a sacking: that's what happens in the real world, so why is the church different?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
It is a very minor part of the Archbishop of Canterbury's job to be skilled in handling a liturgical object stylishly that it is unlikely that any of his predecessors between 1558 and 1928 had ever had occasion to touch.
[ 21. September 2016, 12:30: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just so - and to accuse the poor ++ of being 'arrogant' and 'unwilling to learn/adapt' is hardly fair (unless one has proof to the contrary).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I think that criticism of ++Justin is quite unfair. I can think of some pukka anglo-catholic clerics whose liturgical deportment is clumsy to say the least. And as far as I know Justin was the first Dean of Liverpool to host a Walsingham Festival incorporating Exposition and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I read in Walsingham Review a year ago that when Abp Justin was due to process fully vested with two attendant deacons from the Slipper Chapel to the village, just before the procession moved off he removed his shoes. The two deacons gamely thought they should do the same.
The incident implies that ++ Justin certainly appreciates the importance of the large liturgical gesture.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Does anyone know whether Pontius Pilate appears in the synaxarium or calendar of the Ethiopian Catholic Church?
I'm curious about whether this is one of the Ethiopian traditions that they kept or whether it was lost as part of the union with Rome.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
I was at the Edward the Confessor pilgrimage at Westminster abbey today. It included a festival Eucharist. About 8 priests were in the procession, though some may have been deacons as I am not good at recognising vestments. They all had red and gold vestments on.
When it came to the liturgy of the sacrament, all except the dean, who was the sole celebrant, took off their red and gold and just had the white surplice on. After we had received communion, they all went and put them back on again.
I have not seen this before. I have been in more evangelical churches where only the celebrant puts on vestments in the first place, but that is a bit different. Is what I saw today a common practice and what does it mean ?
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Does anyone know whether Pontius Pilate appears in the synaxarium or calendar of the Ethiopian Catholic Church?
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:
quote:
The Abyssinian Church reckons him as a saint, and assigns 25 June to him and to Claudia Procula, his wife.
But no mention is made of the Ethiopian Catholic Church.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I was at the Edward the Confessor pilgrimage at Westminster abbey today. It included a festival Eucharist. About 8 priests were in the procession, though some may have been deacons as I am not good at recognising vestments. They all had red and gold vestments on.
When it came to the liturgy of the sacrament, all except the dean, who was the sole celebrant, took off their red and gold and just had the white surplice on. After we had received communion, they all went and put them back on again.
I have not seen this before. I have been in more evangelical churches where only the celebrant puts on vestments in the first place, but that is a bit different. Is what I saw today a common practice and what does it mean ?
If the vestments in question were copes (heavy embroidered cloaks) it is almost certainly a matter of practicality. They would get in the way when adminstering.
I suspect they were copes - the Abbey would not
have concelebrants in chasubles.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I suspect they were copes - the Abbey would not have concelebrants in chasubles.
Nor, usually, celebrants. I remember attending a weekday Eucharist at the Abbey and being surprised to see the celebrant wearing a cope instead of a chasuble. He kept his hands folded throughout the service; the cope makes manual acts not too easy, especially the splendid and apparently heavy cope this celebrant was wearing.
I think I remember his orans position for the collect; his hands were still rather close together in front of him but were flat, with palms facing each other.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Did the communicants stand or kneel to receive? If they knelt a cope would definitely get in the way.
Incidentally, which altar was used? I remember being surprised at a eucharist in the choir when a temporary central altar was used until communion, when the elements were taken to the East End altar and communicants walked past the central altar that had actually been used at knelt at the communion rails.
They might have well used the East End altar throughout.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
I saw the same practise at the Abbey some years ago at the annual Corpus Christi Eucharist.
The celebrant was vested in the traditional chasuble,wheareas the other clergy,members of Chapter wore copes,which they took at the ministry of the Sacrament.
I have never witnessed this practise before,neither with the Anglicans nor Roman-Catholics.
I felt it somewhat strange.
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Robert Kennedy
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I can remember St Paul's never using chasubles before Dean Graeme Knowles' time.
There's good C of E precedent for copes, whereas chasubles are a bit dubious, is the thought.
And about six years ago I saw Bishop Nicholas Baines preside at the eucharist for a licencing in a cope. It was a small church where they always used a chasuble.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
There seems to have been an expectation that bishops would wear cope and mitre for the eucharist even when chasubles were the tradition. Probably originating in [a] a suspicion of chasubles as being 'Romish', and [b]a false idea that a cope was specifically episcopal garb. I've seen quite a few bishops (who would normally and happily wear chasuble) thus arrayed. It was probably ++Rowan who was nearly always photographed presiding in a chasuble, who changed that, and ++Justin has continued the tradition.
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
They used the east end altar. The congregation were sitting facing sideways to the altar in the area between the choir stalls and the sanctuary. We had tv monitors to watch as except in the front rows, there's too much of an angle to see right into the sanctuary.
We received the communion standing. The clergy stood still at the front of the sanctuary and people went up to them in a steady queue. I guess maybe 500 people.
I am confused about why a chasuble might be considered dubious. They used lots of incense and prior to the service they had exposition of the sacrament in the Lady chapel. Aren't those more catholic than using chasubles ?
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
In response to Angloid's post, actually a retired bishop was there. But he was not the celebrant, and was among those to remove whatever it was he was wearing. I received the communion from him in fact.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
It was the current Bishop of Chichester,Dr.Martin Warner,who introduced the chasuble at St.Paul's,so around 2005.
He was working at that time,as one of the Canons of the London Cathedral.Dr.Moses was the Dean at that period.
Looking at the report on the Festival St.Edward;s Eucharist,I still find it very strange that the
Canons vested in copes, took off this vestiture at the Ministry of the Sacrament.
I am very curious to learn why this was done ?
Is this a Westminster Abbey custom ?
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Robert Kennedy
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I am confused about why a chasuble might be considered dubious. They used lots of incense and prior to the service they had exposition of the sacrament in the Lady chapel. Aren't those more catholic than using chasubles ?
They're not dubious, really, these days. Nor as you point out is incense or even exposition of the Blessed Sacrament. All have been sighted/smelt in that bastion of Protestantism Liverpool Cathedral. But for years since the reformation the C of E outlawed the traditional vestments except that the cope was allowed/ prescribed for cathedrals. As far as I know the diocese of Sydney is now the only part of the Anglican Communion to declare the chasuble illegal.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Are chasubles still illegal in Ireland, in theory anyway?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
When I was on the staff of a (CofE) cathedral thirty years ago, there was not a chasuble to be found in the place. Celebrants at every mass wore a cope and the three sacred ministers all wore a cope (each!) throughout the Chapter Mass on Sunday mornings. I notice that the cathedral in question does now possess a full set of chasubles, but haven't learned whether they have the dalmatics and tunicles to go with them.
I have experienced many occasions when clergy slip off the cope during services (most often when they're heading up to the pulpit) because, whilst they are mighty fine and dignified garments, they are a bugger to wear if you're doing anything more practical than just processing on the flat or sitting down.
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Are chasubles still illegal in Ireland, in theory anyway?
Chasubles are illegal in Sydney and in addition, the Abp requires an undertaking from new clergy that one won't be worn. St Sanity uses copes. Always removed for preaching and then back on for the rest of the service. They can get in the road a bit at the Consecration, but the awkwardness goes with a little practice. They certainly look easier to manage than a maniple*, for example. We also use dalmatics and tunicles on special feasts. Very hot, totally unsuited for the climate.
*I don't think they're banned, just not used.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I can remember St Paul's never using chasubles before Dean Graeme Knowles' time.
There's good C of E precedent for copes, whereas chasubles are a bit dubious, is the thought.
And about six years ago I saw Bishop Nicholas Baines preside at the eucharist for a licencing in a cope. It was a small church where they always used a chasuble.
What about when Graham Leonard was Bishop of London in the 1980s?
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I love the St James King St and Christ Church St Laurence means to negotiate the canons! Sadly, though I was once offered an opportunity to work at one of them, the fact that I was a dastardly and sinful divorcee precluded me from a licence.
No chasubles at them either - copes all around.
You have 2 counts against you Zappa - you were divorced and so was Kuruman. Either is enough to stop your getting a licence, the 2 together may well bar your attending a service even.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
What about when Graham Leonard was Bishop of London in the 1980s?
Copes all round, as I recall. Maybe Bp Graham managed a chasuble when presiding, but I wouldn't swear to it.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
Bishop Leonard wore always his own chasuble when he was the Presider at the Eucharist in St.Paul's
Cathedral.
His successors copied this tradition,however the current
Bishop is using now the vestments belonging to the Cathedral.
I recently visited Liverpool Cathedral,when you enter this imposing edifice,your eyes are drawn to the magnificent
Reredos of the High Altar and this gives you a very catholic feel.
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Robert Kennedy
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Did the communicants stand or kneel to receive? If they knelt a cope would definitely get in the way.
Incidentally, which altar was used? I remember being surprised at a eucharist in the choir when a temporary central altar was used until communion, when the elements were taken to the East End altar and communicants walked past the central altar that had actually been used at knelt at the communion rails.
They might have well used the East End altar throughout.
Can't remember whether we stood or knelt to receive; I'd guess stood. I think the service might have been in St Faith's Chapel. Or St George's. I vaguely remember some confusion over which one I needed to find.
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
I will be in England later in the month, and will find myself in a place where a Christingle service is on offer. Beyond oranges with candles stuck in, I'm a but at a loss as what this might entail. Online-peeping has provided much information about the symbolism but not much about the actual service. I assume it is geared to children, and further assume I probably have no need of making a special trip, but I wonder what such a service is comprised of. This is in a cathedral if it matters.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
[Tangent] I glanced at the title of the thread in the menu and momentarily read "Sundried liturgical questions" and wondered if I had strayed to Heaven's "Potluck: Recipes 2016".[/tangent] ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Carry on.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
I will be in England later in the month, and will find myself in a place where a Christingle service is on offer. Beyond oranges with candles stuck in, I'm a but at a loss as what this might entail. Online-peeping has provided much information about the symbolism but not much about the actual service. I assume it is geared to children, and further assume I probably have no need of making a special trip, but I wonder what such a service is comprised of. This is in a cathedral if it matters.
You might be better asking the cathedral itself if you want to know how they do it.
I have seen many Christingle services and while yes they are geared to children and families there has been a tremendous variation in how they are done.
From lively all age with not much liturgy – messy church - and some that were Eucharistic and quite formal.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
The curious thing about Christingle services in the UK is the idea that many people have that they are an ancient custom, universally observed, rather than a modern, local custom little known in most parts of the world.
Unless you're prepared to deal with explaining time and time again (as I did on first moving back to the UK), that no, you really have never heard of Christingles until recently, I would keep quiet about it.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I'm in possession of a liturgical text that contains a rubric referring to "the hymn of Notker Balbulus". I understand that a number of texts are attributed to Notker the Stammerer but, as no incipit is given, I'm not sure exactly what this refers to. Does anyone have any ideas?
Hymn 494 in the old Dearmer/Vaughan Williams English Hymnal is attributed to B Notkar (840-912) and is the only work by him in the hymnal. Called the Alleluyatic Sequence its opening line is "The strain upraise of joy and praise", The tune given in Troyte No 2 (Irreg).
I knew a rather tasteful church with an understated catholicism which always sang it on the Sunday before Lent, to have a final blast of alleluias.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
The curious thing about Christingle services in the UK is the idea that many people have that they are an ancient custom, universally observed, rather than a modern, local custom little known in most parts of the world.
Unless you're prepared to deal with explaining time and time again (as I did on first moving back to the UK), that no, you really have never heard of Christingles until recently, I would keep quiet about it.
AFAIK in Canada it is mainly found in Mennonite churches. Otherwise I can't say that I've heard of it. A Presbyterian minister has just told me by telephone that it's new to her as well.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
I remember having to ask on the ship a few years ago what a Christingle service is. They're completely unheard of in my neck of the woods.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We have one every year, a week or so before Christmas, to end the 'autumn term' of our affiliated Scouts, Cubs, and Beavers groups. The kidz themselves make the Christingles, and the service (appropriate songs, readings, prayers, and short homily) is based on material in Common Worship: Times and Seasons.
We usually get around 150 adults and children - a full church - so a good opportunity to preach the Gospel to many who might come to no other Christmas service. It's open to all, not just the uniformed youngsters and their families, but we also have a Crib Service on Christmas Eve for the even younger ones!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
While we are on the subject of Christingles, thought people might like to see this that I stumbled upon yesterday ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
While we are on the subject of Christingles, thought people might like to see this that I stumbled upon yesterday
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I have a question from this morning's service. I go to an Anglican church, where, as in many Anglican churches, the gospel is brought from the front to the middle of the congregation to be read. We stand to sing a hymn immediately prior to this and remain standing to hear the gospel. Today there was a visiting priest in the congregation. He was not known to me but as recognisable as a priest because he wore a clerical shirt and collar.
He stayed sitting down for the hymn, and stood up only when the reader of the gospel arrived with the bible. He was not an old or infirm man so I think he did this because he considered it appropriate. Is this a usual practice in some churches ? Does it signify anything in particular ?
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
quote:
Today there was a visiting priest in the congregation. He was not known to me but as recognisable as a priest because he wore a clerical shirt and collar.
He stayed sitting down for the hymn, and stood up only when the reader of the gospel arrived with the bible. He was not an old or infirm man so I think he did this because he considered it appropriate. Is this a usual practice in some churches ? Does it signify anything in particular ?
Lutherans sit for hymns; I therefore surmise he is a Lutheran pastor. I have certainly encountered situations where Lutherans attending an Anglican service have remained firmly seated when all around them rose to sing. But Lutherans (at least the ones I am familiar with) do stand to hear the Gospel.
I lived/have lived for over 40 years in Lutheran countries/regions and have never understood why anyone able to stand would prefer to sit to sing – it just doesn't help the breathing!
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Yesterday's family service was combined with Christingle. Church was absolutely packed and the extra chairs had to be used ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Ratratrat
Apprentice
# 18669
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Posted
At the weekend, I was visiting a friend and attended his parish church. My parish church back home is pretty traditional when it comes to the CofE liturgy, but I was struck that my friend's church had the Summary of the Law and the Comfortable Words, which I don't think I've ever heard recited before.
Could somebody explain to me when these (and other parts of the CofE liturgy) stopped being used widely, and why?
Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2016
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