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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
One hears occasionally of clergy celebrating (say) 3 Eucharists on one Sunday, who overdo it with the consecrated wine, and have to get one of the wardens of church no.3 to drive them home...
*hic* Go in peash, to love and sherve the Lord! *hic*
IJ
This is a problem which many Canadian (and I imagine in other countries as well) clergy have in multi-point parishes where three celebrations in a morning are not entirely unknown. I remember a certain venerable and respectable cleric telling how, at the beginning of his ministry when he was still judging how much wine to consecrate, he erred several times in a row and appeared at his Sunday lunch, much the worse for wear to his wife's surprise and disapproval, and grateful that he had not been stopped by the constabulary.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Why do none of these priests ever have the common sense to invite other communicants to share in consuming the remains?
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
These days I do, if there are excessive remains. However, I was caught out when a curate, many years ago. I had been put on antihistamines for the first time, and not warned about the effect they have on alcohol. Thankfully I got home safely, but couldn't work out why driving was so much effort.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
One hears occasionally of clergy celebrating (say) 3 Eucharists on one Sunday, who overdo it with the consecrated wine, and have to get one of the wardens of church no.3 to drive them home...
*hic* Go in peash, to love and sherve the Lord! *hic*
IJ
This is a problem which many Canadian (and I imagine in other countries as well) clergy have in multi-point parishes where three celebrations in a morning are not entirely unknown. I remember a certain venerable and respectable cleric telling how, at the beginning of his ministry when he was still judging how much wine to consecrate, he erred several times in a row and appeared at his Sunday lunch, much the worse for wear to his wife's surprise and disapproval, and grateful that he had not been stopped by the constabulary.
In the Diocese of Toronto, there is a running joke that since ordinations take place at St Paul's Bloor Street, the largest and most evangelical parish in the Diocese where reservation of the Sacrament is an absolute no-no (being all too catholic and of course it is condemned in the blessed Thirty-Nine Articles), that the newly ordained deacons had the joy of consuming all the remaining consecrated wine.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by Planeta Plicata:
If I can be needlessly pedantic, the General Roman Calendar of 1954 was the last one to have a feast day of the Circumcision -- it was eliminated from the General Roman Calendar of 1960, which is the only one authorized for use in the extraordinary form today,
How appropriate: in 1960, the feast of the Circumcision got the chop.
We kept Christmas 2 yesterday.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Why do none of these priests ever have the common sense to invite other communicants to share in consuming the remains?
Certainly in the CofE it's been there in the rubric since 1662: quote:
And if any of the Bread and Wine remain ...of that which was consecrated... the Priest, and such other of the Communicants as he shall then call unto him, shall, immediately after the Blessing, reverently eat and drink the same.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Two more, if I may:
a) In many Anglican churches the Gospel is taken into the centre of the church to be read. Why is this?
b) What expenses are Lay Readers supposed to claim in the CoE? Would it include mileage for all services they take, or would their home church be exempt? (I know that isn't liturgical, but it is ecclesiastical, and I'm hoping someone will know.)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
From the Diocese of Canterbury website:
"Readers offer a voluntary and unpaid ministry, and do not usually accept a fee for their services. However, they should be reimbursed for travelling and other expenses incurred through the performance of their duties, especially outside their parish/benefice. Car mileage should be reimbursed at the current rate approved as set by the Diocesan Board of Finance (DBF).
Some Readers are authorised to conduct funerals; they are now able to claim 80% of the funeral fee that is paid to the DBF by submitting the appropriate claim form available from the Diocesan website or Diocesan House). This remuneration is on a casual ad hoc basis and does not constitute an employment relationship between the DBF and the Reader.
It is also the responsibility of the Reader to declare and return to Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs any fee they receive from the DBF in respect of the performance of Occasional Offices".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Two more, if I may:
a) In many Anglican churches the Gospel is taken into the centre of the church to be read. Why is this?
b) What expenses are Lay Readers supposed to claim in the CoE? Would it include mileage for all services they take, or would their home church be exempt? (I know that isn't liturgical, but it is ecclesiastical, and I'm hoping someone will know.)
Not an answer, but an opinion regarding a)
The rubrics of the TEC BCP are clear that all the lessons (Gospel included) and the sermon are to be delivered from the same pulpit/lectern/ambo. And yet --- at about the same time as this document was published the so-called 'Gospel procession' began to become popular throughout TEC, high, low or muddle. It can sometimes become quite ludicrous, as when all those attending are sitting near the front of the nave, and the procession passes them by to go half-way to the west doors. (I've seen this happen on many occasions.) It is distinctly UNedifying, IMNSHO!
Of b), I know not.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Why do none of these priests ever have the common sense to invite other communicants to share in consuming the remains?
"...at the beginning of his ministry..." They soon learned how to measure the wine, but even as a 15-year-old acolyte, I was called upon to do my bit with the contents of an Easter flagon.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Two more, if I may:
a) In many Anglican churches the Gospel is taken into the centre of the church to be read. Why is this?
In many (most) C of E churches of a higher-than-central tradition, this seems to be the general practice (except at smaller 'said' services). I imagine it evolved from the pre-Vat 2 High Mass, or Dearmer's re-invention of medieval custom, when the deacon would process with thurifer etc and stand facing north (proclaiming the Gospel to the heathen: as any fule know, they all live beyond Watford). This has evolved into the less geographically specific practice of reading it in the midst of the people.
I suppose the theory of it is that the Gospel is being proclaimed to the world, but it doesn't really work if many of us (the people of God) whose task it is to do that after the liturgy, can't hear it properly because the reader has their back to us. The emphasis on the ambo as the place of proclamation, and the unity of all Scripture (three readings and psalm) plus the homily, makes a lot more sense.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It doesn't really work if many of us (the people of God) whose task it is to do that after the liturgy, can't hear it properly because the reader has their back to us.
Get them a clip-on radio microphone!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
That may not solve actually solve the problem. Why:
- It is surprising how much of hearing is actually lip reading.
- untrained microphone users will often be put off by hearing their voice come back at them from behind.
- Classical feedback situation
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Why do none of these priests ever have the common sense to invite other communicants to share in consuming the remains?
This does happen in some churches, often in my direction and I am the one to be called upon to consume the remaining wine.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
What expenses are Lay Readers supposed to claim in the CoE? Would it include mileage for all services they take, or would their home church be exempt? (I know that isn't liturgical, but it is ecclesiastical, and I'm hoping someone will know.)
In the Church of England, there is no such thing as "Lay Reader" as the word Lay was dropped about half a century ago
But I digress. I've never heard of anyone claiming expenses for attending a service at their own church, but when taking a service at another parish or conducting a funeral, I claim travel expenses. In the case of a funeral, I claim mileage for the pastoral visit(s) to the family as well. If travelling to another parish, the church I'm visiting meet the expenses. For a funeral, my own parish pays although they also receive a pretty hefty fee for the funeral anyway.
As a member of my Diocesan Readers' Board I'm entitled to expenses for travelling to the Diocesan office and those are met by the board.
ETA: I recently attended a service in another church in my role as a board member to present a certificate to a retiring Reader. Expenses for this were also met by the board.
[ 04. January 2017, 17:14: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Some Readers are authorised to conduct funerals; they are now able to claim 80% of the funeral fee that is paid to the DBF by submitting the appropriate claim form available from the Diocesan website or Diocesan House)
80% of £77 is not much - I used to have to take a half day off and reimburse my school £150 for supply cover.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
What expenses are Lay Readers supposed to claim in the CoE? Would it include mileage for all services they take, or would their home church be exempt? (I know that isn't liturgical, but it is ecclesiastical, and I'm hoping someone will know.)
In the Church of England, there is no such thing as "Lay Reader" as the word Lay was dropped about half a century ago
More's the pity - some Readers act as if they're para-clergy.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
What expenses are Lay Readers supposed to claim in the CoE? Would it include mileage for all services they take, or would their home church be exempt? (I know that isn't liturgical, but it is ecclesiastical, and I'm hoping someone will know.)
In the Church of England, there is no such thing as "Lay Reader" as the word Lay was dropped about half a century ago
More's the pity - some Readers act as if they're para-clergy.
True, but quite a few dioceses are changing the name to "Licensed Lay Minister"
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
In the Church of England, there is no such thing as "Lay Reader" as the word Lay was dropped about half a century ago.
Well, you live and learn. I'm sure I've heard the term "Lay Reader" more recently than 50 years ago; certainly the term Licensed Lay Minister is prevalent in these parts.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We Blue-Scarfed (Scarved?)Menaces are still referred to as 'Lay Readers' in this Diocese.
If we (along with Pastoral Assistants, Evangelists etc.) wish to become 'Licensed Lay Ministers', then some further training is required, so as to make sure all are singing from more or less the same hymnsheet (I think)...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
quote:
We Blue-Scarfed (Scarved?)Menaces are still referred to as 'Lay Readers' in this Diocese.
...and in many other contexts, especially non-formal ones. It helps to quickly clarify what is being referred to – Reader has after all other meanings as well: a library user (sadly now often referred to as 'customers', grrr); in UK-type universities, an academic position between lecturers and full professors; and of course, even more generally, the reader of a book or periodical. ('A merry Christmas to all our readers', etc.) There is, moreover, no harm in calling Readers 'lay Readers', since lay they are, and the word has reappearerd in the newer term Licensed Lay Minister.
(By the way, I note with some frustration the habit of many Shipmates of taking it for granted that all other Shipmates who join a thread know where everyone else is from ... "this Diocese"? There are (Wikipedia informs me) 759 dioceses in the Anglican Commuinion – and not all Shipmates are Anglican, tho' this specific question about Readers is.)
And...
quote:
If we (along with Pastoral Assistants, Evangelists etc.) wish to become 'Licensed Lay Ministers', then some further training is required, so as to make sure all are singing from more or less the same hymnsheet (I think)...
No, only Readers are referred to as Licensed Lay Ministers; moreover, at least in the C of E, only Readers are licensed (a term they share with the ordained clergy) – the other categories of lay ministers are 'authorized'.
Training for new Readers / LLMs in the C of E is today fairly rigorous – it took me over three years (part-time) to complete all the requirements. I was originally licensed in the Diocese in Europe, and currently hold PtO's [Permission to Officiate] in Europe and in Lincoln – too old to be issued with a full licence any more: that ends at age 70. But many Readers, and ordained clergy too, are over 70 and continue to minister on a PtO.
keibat from the [european] far north and the lincs rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
keibat, do bear in mind that some Shipmates prefer to maintain a degree of anonymity - hence 'this Diocese'. Perhaps I should have said 'my Diocese'?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Perhaps I didn't express myself very well regarding Licensed Lay Ministers in this Diocese. This, from the Diocesan website:
'In some dioceses Readers are known as LLMs, but in [this Diocese] the designation LLM will cover a range of roles, responsibilities and duties which will vary according to the gifts and abilities of the individual, the needs of their parish or ministry setting, and the context of their ministry. Licensed Lay Ministry in the Diocese....will cover a broader spectrum, and different areas of ministry than currently exercised by Readers, Pastoral Assistants and Evangelists. The selection process for licensed ministry is more rigorous, especially in the area of leadership, so new candidates for LLM gain experience in and knowledge about different expressions of ministry, with an emphasis on development of ministry leadership .'
Those who have not opted to become official LLMs retain their previous title e.g. (Lay) Reader, Pastoral Assistant, or Evangelist.
Simples!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
What expenses are Lay Readers supposed to claim in the CoE? Would it include mileage for all services they take, or would their home church be exempt? (I know that isn't liturgical, but it is ecclesiastical, and I'm hoping someone will know.)
In the Church of England, there is no such thing as "Lay Reader" as the word Lay was dropped about half a century ago
More's the pity - some Readers act as if they're para-clergy.
In the land of freezing rain, they're still know as lay readers, and the curious can examine the diocesan manual here.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
What expenses are Lay Readers supposed to claim in the CoE? Would it include mileage for all services they take, or would their home church be exempt? (I know that isn't liturgical, but it is ecclesiastical, and I'm hoping someone will know.)
In the Church of England, there is no such thing as "Lay Reader" as the word Lay was dropped about half a century ago
More's the pity - some Readers act as if they're para-clergy.
True, but quite a few dioceses are changing the name to "Licensed Lay Minister"
Yes - we have here. But I am lay and i read books!
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
DEAR BISHOP'S FINGER:
quote:
keibat, do bear in mind that some Shipmates prefer to maintain a degree of anonymity - hence 'this Diocese'. Perhaps I should have said 'my Diocese'?
Sorry. Yes, bearing in mind some of the stuff that gets posted on the Ship, anonymity would in some cases seem to be very advisable.
It is nonetheless sometimes frustrating when folk refer to their own quite specific situation, but it's difficult to make good sense of it without context. TEC? SEC? C of E? ACSA? ACC? ACNA? – let alone those provinces without an acronym, or even those churches which have no formal links with Canterbury at all...
But to turn to your following post, quoting your diocesan website:
quote:
The selection process for licensed ministry is more rigorous, especially in the area of leadership, so new candidates for LLM gain experience in and knowledge about different expressions of ministry, with an emphasis on development of ministry leadership
The emphasis probably differs from diocese to diocese, but it strikes me that this seems to treat licensing as so to speak a notch above whatever procedure is used for other forms of ministry, i e more akin to the licensing of ordained ministers (clergy). One way I've heard this justified is that the reason that licensed Readers in the C of E are approved to preach, and to take funerals, is precisely because they have a more rigorous training,
There will of course be those who dismiss the value of or need for such training – tho' in my admittedly limited (and specific) experience, these have tended to be folk who do not have such training.
But to be honest, the whole field of ministry by the unpriested is currently in a state of flux, across many churches – cf the resurgence of the distinct diaconate in the Roman Church; and in 20 years time it may well look different than it does today; as moreover the priesthood does, and will.
And such shifts have happened in the past, too – not least, the transformation of the episcopally-centred urban Church of the first few generations into the presbyterially-ministered, diffuse organization that has dominated the traditional churches ever since.
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
keibat, your apology is accepted in the spirit in which it was offered! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
You are right in saying that lay ministry in many dioceses (of the Church of England, but elsewhere as well, I expect) is in a state of flux. You are also right in opining that current training is rigorous - much more so than when I was first licensed forty years ago - and not far off (so I have been told) the standard required for ordination.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
You are right in saying that lay ministry in many dioceses (of the Church of England, but elsewhere as well, I expect) is in a state of flux. You are also right in opining that current training is rigorous - much more so than when I was first licensed forty years ago - and not far off (so I have been told) the standard required for ordination.
IJ
(One-time Director of Reader Training signing in) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Two comments I'd like to offer:
1 I've been ordained for getting on for 40 years, during which time Reader training has always been in a state of flux!
2 As signalled by (for example) the Hind Report , Readers should be trained to an equivalent standard to clergy. That official rhetoric doesn't carry through into Real Life[TM]: on average the amount spent on training each Reader is 25% of the amount spent on training each ordination candidate.
Despite that discrepancy, I've known places where the Readers emerge from training better trained than their ordinand counterparts! But my experience across a number of dioceses suggests that Reader Trainers are invariably worse resourced, and less valued and supported by the hierarchy, than those involved in training clergy. 'Brethren: It should not be so!'
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
You are right in saying that lay ministry in many dioceses (of the Church of England, but elsewhere as well, I expect) is in a state of flux. You are also right in opining that current training is rigorous - much more so than when I was first licensed forty years ago - and not far off (so I have been told) the standard required for ordination.
IJ
(One-time Director of Reader Training signing in)
Two comments I'd like to offer:
1 I've been ordained for getting on for 40 years, during which time Reader training has always been in a state of flux!
2 As signalled by (for example) the Hind Report , Readers should be trained to an equivalent standard to clergy. That official rhetoric doesn't carry through into Real Life[TM]: on average the amount spent on training each Reader is 25% of the amount spent on training each ordination candidate.
Despite that discrepancy, I've known places where the Readers emerge from training better trained than their ordinand counterparts! But my experience across a number of dioceses suggests that Reader Trainers are invariably worse resourced, and less valued and supported by the hierarchy, than those involved in training clergy. 'Brethren: It should not be so!'
Plainly reader training should not be second-rate. But if you're going that far with expecting candidates to invest time and effort in their training, why not just have a default position of making them ordained clergy- deacons at least- with some kind of local non-stipendiary status?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
leo commented:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by keibat:
the unpriested
clericalism lurks behind that term
Not really. I meant, specifically, that there is widespread and quite radical change in process that is affecting the ministry roles of those who have not been ordained Priest – in other words, including Deacons (who are ordained and licensed), Readers (who are licensed but not ordained) and sundry other categories with titles which seem to vary between dioceses (who are however neither ordained nor licensed).
[I gave the priests and deacons capital letters here not out of clericalism but as an egalitarian gesture to match the Readers, who've been capitalized throughout most of this discussion.] – There is also of course change currently taking place that affects both Priests and Bishops, but it feels to me that the scale of change is more drastic for the subpresbyterial orders.
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
]Plainly reader training should not be second-rate. But if you're going that far with expecting candidates to invest time and effort in their training, why not just have a default position of making them ordained clergy- deacons at least- with some kind of local non-stipendiary status?
Because being a Reader is lay ministry. I turned down ordination in order to be one.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just so, because Reader ministry is distinctive, and not second-rate.
OTOH, there might well also be a case for the C of E expanding its permanent diaconate (it has one already), and some Readers might well wish to take that step if they could.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Well, yes, but *what* is distinctive about it, apart from that it's a lay ministry?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Lay folk focus on secular, not on church.
One could say:
quote:
They are to serve the community in which they are set, bringing to the Church the needs and hopes of all the people. They are to work with their fellow members in searching out the poor and the weak, the sick and lonely and those who are oppressed and powerless, reaching into the forgotten corners of the world, the at the love of God may be made visible.
Oh, hang on. That omits the sentence that tells me who 'they' are in that... deacons.
(It's from the Common Worship Ordinal).
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Lay folk focus on secular, not on church.
Meaning what, in this context?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Much as I'm learning about licensed lay ministry from all these comments, I'm still hoping for some more light to be thrown on my first question - what is the symbolism of reading the Gospel from the centre of the congregation. Given how widespread the custom is I would expect there to be a rationale behind it somewhere.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Here's a total guess: "The light shines in the darkness... and the darkness has not overcome it" plus "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden" added to "Let your light so shine before men..."
It's a visual symbol for the people of God shining the light of of the Gospel of Christ out into a dark world.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Also a 'visual aid', showing Christ (in the form of His words) coming amongst the assembly of faith?
Not sure how recent or widespread this custom is in the C of E, but I know of 3 local churches (all MOTR or 'high' which do it).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Lay folk focus on secular, not on church.
Meaning what, in this context?
Seeing one's secular work as one's chief vocation. Preaching and teaching in church should reflect thid.
Furthermore, the focal ministry of Readers is teaching and preaching. That of the diaonate is service, pastoral care.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Much as I'm learning about licensed lay ministry from all these comments, I'm still hoping for some more light to be thrown on my first question - what is the symbolism of reading the Gospel from the centre of the congregation. Given how widespread the custom is I would expect there to be a rationale behind it somewhere.
I doubt that there is any rationale because it's a high church, rather that a catholoic practice.
The old custom of facing north was symbolic of taking the gospel to the pagans.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Lay folk focus on secular, not on church.
One could say:
quote:
They are to serve the community in which they are set, bringing to the Church the needs and hopes of all the people. They are to work with their fellow members in searching out the poor and the weak, the sick and lonely and those who are oppressed and powerless, reaching into the forgotten corners of the world, the at the love of God may be made visible.
Oh, hang on. That omits the sentence that tells me who 'they' are in that... deacons.
(It's from the Common Worship Ordinal).
At the time when CW was written, the C of E had no clear theology of the diaconate - it still doesn't.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Much as I'm learning about licensed lay ministry from all these comments, I'm still hoping for some more light to be thrown on my first question - what is the symbolism of reading the Gospel from the centre of the congregation. Given how widespread the custom is I would expect there to be a rationale behind it somewhere.
I doubt that there is any rationale because it's a high church, rather that a catholoic practice.
The old custom of facing north was symbolic of taking the gospel to the pagans.
That I find fascinating; I'd assumed high Anglican practices were rediscoveries of RC use. However, even so, there must have been a reason why they came up with this particular idea.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
If the 'old custom' of facing north was the original RC practice, then it is clear that it morphed in two ways once the original symbolism of facing the heathen (and of course we are all in the north) became irrelevant. RCs (rightly and sensibly in my view) settled for reading the Gospel along with the other scriptures from the ambo; most Anglicans seem to have gone for wandering into the congregation (because that's where the heathen are?).
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I had always been told that reading the Gospel in the midst of the congregation symbolized the Word coming to dwell among us. I have no source on that, however.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Go figure, the Anglican Church of Canada has an FAQ on this, but it doesn't really seem to answer its own question.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I agree that the preferred place for all the readings (and the sermon) should be the lectern or ambo, the Gospel being marked out as important by the use of acclamation, lights, incense, and the people respectfully standing.
However, the lectern at Our Place is bl**dy awkward to get in and out of (narrow steps etc.), and it's difficult to wield the thurible without banging it against the woodwork, Gospel book, acolytes' heads, or adjacent pillar (with interesting results). Hence, perhaps, the slightly less awkward alternative of taking the Gospel to the middle of the church.
OTOH, I suppose we could compromise by simply reading the Gospel from the chancel step, where there's room to manoeuvre!
IJ
I
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
As churchwarden, I find it jolly useful having the Gospel read in the middle of the congregation and us all turning to face it. It's when I count the heads for the register.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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