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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Tobias
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Burn it.

Reverently, of course.

IJ

Offically, supposed to be burned in sanctuary lamps - which is difficult if yours are electric.
On Easter afternoon my brother was telling me that at his church the congregation at the Easter Vigil had been given battery-powered plastic candles for the Service of Light. [Disappointed]
The congregation also received stern instructions from the parish priest: "The candles are not souvenirs! You must return them so that we can use them again next year."

quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
We use the previous years oils at the heart of the New Fire on Easter morning...

That's a good idea - I like it!

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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.

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Stephen
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Electric?

Is Outrage!

IJ

Hmmm......in our shack we used the Mail somebody had left behind to start the New Fire.......
[Two face]

--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Bishops Finger
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O well done!

Is most definitely NOT Outrage!

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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leo
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[QUOTt at his church the congregation at the Easter Vigil had been given battery-powered plastic candles for the Service of Light.[/QB][/QUOTE]
Health & Safety (The Children's Society make glow torches for Christingle.)

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Piglet
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[rant ON]

One of our non-stipendiary clergy (an archdeacon) was presiding at the BCP Choral Eucharist this morning, and when the time came for the Kyrie (we were singing Darke in F, which has a particularly nice one) she just wittered straight on through as if it was a said service. It's just as well I didn't see her afterwards.

She should have known better - when she's not on duty she sings in the choir ... [Mad]

[/rant OFF]

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alto n a soprano who can read music

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Brenda Clough
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Today (second Sunday in Easter) the assistant rector decided it would be great to start the sermon with a couple rounds of Jeopardy. Alex, I'll take the Christian Calendar questions. THIS MAN SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO DOWNLOAD VIDEOS. [Projectile]

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
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There is a special circle of Hell reserved for these idiots, where they are required to recite Ritual Notes aloud, for all eternity, whilst horrid little demons poke them with red hot pitchforks every time they make a mistake.

Which is in every clause.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Stephen
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Oh no. .Is Outrage
Parson's Handbook!

--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen

'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
There is a special circle of Hell reserved for these idiots, where they are required to recite Ritual Notes aloud, for all eternity, whilst horrid little demons poke them with red hot pitchforks every time they make a mistake.

Which is in every clause.

IJ

Wouldn't churchwardens' staves with specially sharpened ends be a more appropriate instrument of torment?

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Bishops Finger
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What makes you think I didn't have churchwardens in mind in the first place?

[Two face]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Oh no. .Is Outrage
Parson's Handbook!

Surely no work of St Percy would be available in hell?
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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Electric?

Is Outrage!

IJ

Hmmm......in our shack we used the Mail somebody had left behind to start the New Fire.......
[Two face]

I'm surprized it didn't self-combust on its own, with Infernal Flames.

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Bishops Finger
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But no-one said it had to be lit [Ultra confused]

I expect they opened the sealed and fire/venom-proof container in which the bits of paper were being safely kept, whereupon the Wail let out a loud Heil!, and then spontaneously combusted.

[Eek!]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Galilit
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Does anyone know of an online Compline podcast?

The Community of S.Mary the Virgin (Wantage) had one which was LOVELY but the (Ordinariate) Sisters of the Blessed Virgin Mary are not able to do it yet. (Aside: anyone thinking of bequeathing so they can set it up?)

I know of a few Vespers but that is less suitable as I am either making dinner or gin-and-tonic-ing or both around that time.
I want something more bedtime-y; "perils and dangers of this night", "a quiet night and a perfect end" sort of thing...

Or little online written devotions or books ...it doesn't really have to be "real nuns actually singing".

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Does anyone know of an online Compline podcast?

Here's a daily one based on the RC Liturgy of the Hours - Night Prayer

Here's a more traditional weekly one from a US Episcopal Cathedral.

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Galilit
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Oh thank you -I had happened upon the St Mark's one on Youtube and will definitely sign up for that.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Jengie jon

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The First Order Anglican Franciscan Night Prayer was popular for a while. You can find a document detailing it on their website. You can find the slightly more complex version from Celebrating Common Prayer from Oremus

Jengie

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venbede
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The text of Compline was originally invariable throuughout the year so it could be recited by heart in the dark.

The modern RC version has different psalms for the days of the week.

The modern C of E version allows a lot of seasonal variations, which was not the original idea.

In both cases, it is allowed to ignore the variation and use the same version each day (with a few alleluias in the Easter season.)

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
In both cases, it is allowed to ignore the variation and use the same version each day (with a few alleluias in the Easter season.)

Galilit has inspired me to look for a recorded Compline that's of the unchanging variety and would be lovely to listen to and pray along with (and memorize) any night of the year. There's a Clare College one, I think, although it won't be the CD I have of Compline for St Somebody of Canterbury (Thomas?) recorded back in pre-Rutter times with robotic chanting.
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Galilit
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Yes, Venbede - the Compline I used to listen to from Wantage was unchanging and I very soon learnt it by heart, especially as I was "praying it" with the podcast.

The one I am using at the moment is from A New Zealand Prayerbook ("because it was there"). Like all the ANZPB there are tons of options at every point - though at least there is always ONE that I like a lot more than the rest. It has a "Reading" (a couple of Bible verses) with 7 variations (Mon, Tues, etc); and at the end is a Sentence for the Day ditto.

I am thinking I prefer the stable one. More sleepifying and a contrast my personal daily outlook on life of "I wonder what will happen next"

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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venbede
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I use the unvarying one from C of E Common Worship - confession, hymn, the three psalms (4, 91 and 134), reading and Nunc Dimittis.

https://www.churchofengland.org/prayer-worship/worship/texts/daily2/night/compline.aspx

St Benedict gave those three psalms and no Nunc. I don't like using other psalms. (Although Compline is the office I say least frequently.)

[ 26. April 2017, 08:57: Message edited by: venbede ]

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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David Goode
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You can enjoy monastic Compline here.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
You can enjoy monastic Compline here.

Thanks...this is lovely. I'd just rather pray and memorize it po angielsku.

[Smile]

And Benedict's Nunc-less Compline is a great thing to pray after already having used the Nunc dimittis at BCP Evening Prayer. I thank him for this every time.

[ 26. April 2017, 16:08: Message edited by: Oblatus ]

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Galilit
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The Latin takes my MIND out of the equation, I find. Sometimes, being such a Protestant, I find myself THINKING too much (and praying too little). Don't get me wrong, I know enough liturgical Latin that I know where I am.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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stonespring
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I will be in Melbourne, Australia, on Thursday, May 25, and am wondering if the Anglican Diocese there celebrates Ascension on Ascension Thursday or if it moves it to the following Sunday. Specifically, what do they do at St. Paul's Cathedral? Do all Anglicans in Australia have the same practice regarding when they celebrate the Ascension or is it different in every diocese - or different in every parish?
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Zappa
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Different in every parish. Melbourne is a very multichrome diocese. I'd be very surprised if the cathedral didn't have a Thursday Ascension Day liturgy.

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Gee D
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St Paul's would definitely have a Eucharist as would some of the other city churches (I think not the old Cathedral), suburban parishes less likely. St Sanity has a Thursday morning Eucharist in any event; St Jame King St and CCSL in the city definitely.

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venbede
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How do RCs address deacons who are due to be ordained priest in due course?

Orthodox would call them Deacon Smith.

Anglo Catholics, I'm sorry to say, seem to call them Father Smith.

And do such RC deacons get assigned to a parish or are they ordained while still at seminary?

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Callan
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A RC nun of my acquaintance used to address me as Father after we first met, dropped me down to Deacon Callan when she realised I hadn't been priested and addressed me as Father Callan afterwards. As I am a high church Anglican I took this to be an ecumenical compliment rather than a recognition of my orders!

That said she was rather on the liberal end of the spectrum. As a Deacon I was delegated to go on the ecumenical York Course committee and at our first meeting the Methodist rep apologised that there was no Catholic on the panel that year. She responded: "Don't worry, last year we had Ann Widdecombe, so I think that's a step in the right direction".

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Peter Owen
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I will be in Melbourne, Australia, on Thursday, May 25, and am wondering if the Anglican Diocese there celebrates Ascension on Ascension Thursday or if it moves it to the following Sunday. Specifically, what do they do at St. Paul's Cathedral?

The cathedral website has this Music List for Major Services: Easter to St Paul 2017 which lists choral evensong at 5.10 pm on Ascension Day. The Regular Services page lists said eucharists on Thursdays at 9.00 am and 12.15 pm.

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Πετρος

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
How do RCs address deacons who are due to be ordained priest in due course?

Orthodox would call them Deacon Smith.

Anglo Catholics, I'm sorry to say, seem to call them Father Smith.

And do such RC deacons get assigned to a parish or are they ordained while still at seminary?

I can only speak to Canadian experience. Generally they seem to get "Reverend Mister Smith," but the French appears to be "le réverend diacre Smith." I would wonder if the Reverend Mister would apply to transitional deacons in religious communities, but my source, usually good on these arcane matters, had no idea.

A quick scan of local RC doings suggest that most transitional deacons get priested while in seminary, unlike Anglican procedure where deacons are sent into parishes, then priested (usually) after their first year.

Bulletin! another telephone call tells me that Byzantine Catholic transitional deacons sometimes are assigned to parishes before priesting, but are sometimes priested in seminary or monastery-- it depends if they need the parish staffed quickly. The Maronites send their married transitional deacons back to the homeland for priesting (they haven't had to since 2014 but they do it anyway) and further training, while the Ukrainians priest them here. Nomenclature follows eastern practice, viz., Deacon Boris Smith.

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I think not the old Cathedral

Oooh, no. [Killing me]

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BulldogSacristan
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
A RC nun of my acquaintance used to address me as Father after we first met, dropped me down to Deacon Callan when she realised I hadn't been priested and addressed me as Father Callan afterwards. As I am a high church Anglican I took this to be an ecumenical compliment rather than a recognition of my orders!

I don't think that is terribly remarkable, and I wouldn't necessarily read too much into it. In fact, I'd think the nun was being very rude if she hadn't addressed you as father. It's standard politeness to address people however they are accustomed to being addressed, and it doesn't mean that the person doing the addressing is tacitly recognizing the claims that a title might make.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
How do RCs address deacons who are due to be ordained priest in due course?

Orthodox would call them Deacon Smith.

We would never call them "Deacon surname" - not ever. It would be "Deacon Christian name" or "Father Christian name", or sometimes "Father Deacon Christian name", but Orthodox clergy are never called by their surname. For clarity, they might sometimes be referred to or an envelope might be addressed to "Father Christian name + surname". However, the surname is not a part of Christian identity but rather the Christian name, which can be given at baptism, chrismation, ordination, or monastic tonsure, and is the name by which we receive the sacraments and by which we are addressed within the Christian community. The surname is of the world and is never used to address Orthodox clergy.

[ 19. May 2017, 21:29: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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venbede
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Thanks, Scrumps, for the clarification.

My question was about addressing deacons. I'd be glad for an RC to comment,

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Forthview
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RCs would never address a deacon as 'Father' unless they thought that the deacon was a priest - as is sometimes the case. In general RCs are not too used to having deacons around and if they happen to be wearing a dog collar they may well be addressed mistakenly as 'Father' until the parishioners discover what the priestlike person is.

Generally nowadays transitional deacons will spend some time in a parish.They might be addressed as Rev.Mr Smith or Rev Deacon Smith or just Rev deacon John or simply as 'John'.

We have in our parish here a permanent married deacon who has been a member of the parish for many years.He is simply addressed by his first name.He helps out in two parishes,takes RCIA, does some baptisms and weddings,occasionally preaches of a Sunday and whenever he is free,he will carry out the role of deacon at Sunday or weekday Masses.

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venbede
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Thanks, Forthview,

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Enoch
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First a query for the Orthodox. Am I right that it is customary in the Orthodox world to address monks as Father, irrespective of whether they are ordained or not?

Second, on RC permanent deacons, I had a work colleague once who was one. He certainly had a wife, and seemed to do much the same sort of things as a Reader does in the CofE.

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Bishops Finger
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Or, to put it another way, C of E Readers can these days act pretty much as Deacons (apart from officiating at weddings and baptisms).

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Ceremoniar
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In my neck of the RC woods, transitional deacons spend nearly a year at a parish and are generally addressed as "Deacon Last Name." Permanent deacons are addressed as Deacon Last Name or Deacon First Name, as per parish custom and the deacon's preference. Either way they are The Rev. Mr. So-and-So. In many, if not most, American dioceses, permanent deacons are a familiar sight, with large parishes in archdioceses frequently having multiple permanent deacons.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
First a query for the Orthodox. Am I right that it is customary in the Orthodox world to address monks as Father, irrespective of whether they are ordained or not?

With some qualification, that's right, Enoch: in the Eastern Orthodox Church, monks are "Father" while nuns are "Mother". The same is the custom even among western rite monastics who are under Eastern Orthodox churches.

However, my experience in the Western Orthodox Church is that nuns are "Sister". I haven't yet encountered any Western Orthodox monks who have not been ordained but I assume they would be "Brother".

I am unfamiliar with the practice among the Oriental Orthodox.

In general people tend not to be too fussy about these things, as they are only polite honorifics and not part of any official title. Properly, monastics and clergy are addressed by their clerical position, e.g. "Nun Barbara", "Priest Thomas", "Deacon Mark", "Priestmonk Jeremy", "Bishop Theodore", "Monk Gregory", and so forth, although this is more commonly seen in writing, with the less formal "Mother" and "Father" being used more in speech.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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moonlitdoor
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# 11707

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Is anyone familiar with the Walsingham national pilgrimage ? I was in Norfolk on holiday this weekend so I decided to go along.

I am curious about the large number of people who entered in the procession, as there were several different kinds of vestments. As I am not familiar with the details of vestments I probably have the names wrong. The majority wore white albs(?) about half with a red stole and half with a gold. Then there were a few with gold chasubles, and some with a dark blue vestment of some kind.
At the back were some in purple who I assume were bishops.

I am also interested to know the significance of the fires which a couple of people were carrying.

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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I too was there at the Walsingham National on Monday and I have been going nearly every year for many years.

I have not fully grasped the perspective from which you put your questions. If you are asking what is a chasuble as opposed to an alb, the alb derived from the Latin albus -white. The stole is worn over the alb (over both shoulders for a priest and over the left shoulder for a deacon). For most of the concelebrating priests, that was the sole vesture.

The chief concelebrants add the chasuble, but the few deacons wear the dalmatic in place of the chasuble. (I cannot give the etymology for chasuble and dalmatic.

Blue is the colour of Our Lady and the underlying colour of white is for a festival.

The torches (as opposed to candles) give a more powerful symbol of light.

At the time of writing, no other shipmate has written in, but this could very well cross with any other post.

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moonlitdoor
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The perspective of my question was why there were so many different vestments worn and who would wear what. For example why did some have red stoles and some gold ? Why did some have gold chasubles and some blue ( if the blue ones were chasubles ) ?

I have not been to many eucharists where more than one priest was present, but at those I have been to, everyone was wearing the same liturgical colours.

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
The perspective of my question was why there were so many different vestments worn and who would wear what. For example why did some have red stoles and some gold ? Why did some have gold chasubles and some blue ( if the blue ones were chasubles ) ?

I have not been to many eucharists where more than one priest was present, but at those I have been to, everyone was wearing the same liturgical colours.

I tried to correct it by adding more details of the bishops vesture, but the technology would not have it and I may try again later.

Any variations, such as red or gold, would not have been inappropriate; the clergy would have brought their own with them, giving that variation and any "standard" colour could not very well be insisted upon.

Oh, I see, the blue cloaks would have been worn by the guardians (clerical and lay) of the Shrine.

[ 31. May 2017, 12:30: Message edited by: Ecclesiastical Flip-flop ]

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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The pilgrimage was Mystery Worshipped.

[ 31. May 2017, 12:37: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I cannot give the etymology for chasuble and dalmatic.

The Catholic Encyclopedia is our friend.

Chasuble is from the Latin casula (literally "little house"), a poncho-like outer garment worn in the time of the middle to late Roman Empire.

Dalmatic is from a garment popular among well dressed Dalmatian folk.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The pilgrimage was Mystery Worshipped.

This is curiosity. If this was an ecumenical event and both the CofE and RC diocesan bishops were present, how did they handle communicating?

Did the two teams concelebrate on two altars next to each other?

If so, how did they keep in synch bearing in mind that the words wouldn't have been exactly identical?

Or was there first one mass and then another?

And was it made clear to the congregation which queue they should join to receive, and if so how?

How did the stewards stop the faithful from joining the wrong queue?

Was it like Northern Ireland where it's said the locals can tell who's which, even if they look and sound the same to everyone else?


Or are these silly questions? They shouldn't be. After all, this is the Ecclesiantics board.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I cannot give the etymology for chasuble and dalmatic.

The Catholic Encyclopedia is our friend.

Chasuble is from the Latin casula (literally "little house"), a poncho-like outer garment worn in the time of the middle to late Roman Empire.

Dalmatic is from a garment popular among well dressed Dalmatian folk.

Thanks Amanda. I was writing off the top of my head on first reading the post. I was being non-committal about coming back to that, having looked it up.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The pilgrimage was Mystery Worshipped.

This is curiosity. If this was an ecumenical event and both the CofE and RC diocesan bishops were present, how did they handle communicating?

Did the two teams concelebrate on two altars next to each other?

If so, how did they keep in synch bearing in mind that the words wouldn't have been exactly identical?

Or was there first one mass and then another?

And was it made clear to the congregation which queue they should join to receive, and if so how?

How did the stewards stop the faithful from joining the wrong queue?

Was it like Northern Ireland where it's said the locals can tell who's which, even if they look and sound the same to everyone else?


Or are these silly questions? They shouldn't be. After all, this is the Ecclesiantics board.

As I indicated, I was present at this year's National Pilgrimage.

The newly published MW report is definitely for this year of 2017 and not for a previous year and this only took place 48 hours ago!!! I am amazed and bewildered it was written, processed and edited so quickly; I would have needed more time!

The report is factual and accurate, but I have one or two minor disagreements about it; e.g. the nun did not lead the Rosary all the way through, and at some point, a male voice took over, who could only be heard over the loud-speaker, who was out of sight for me to identify. I could make one or two corrections about the accuracy of vocabulary re-the Bishops' vesture.

In reply to some of Enoch's point's:-

Remember that there were TWO main services, but only ONE of which was an ANGLICAN Mass. The RC Bishop was not necessarily present at BOTH services, and he only featured at the non-Eucharistic one. So as far as I can see, there could have been no cause of possible confusion regarding intercommunion, or otherwise.

There were communion stations at various points and all communicants were intended to be Anglican. But I did look in vain in the bespoke service booklet, for instructions what to do, if any non-communicants preferred to receive a blessing instead. They could have been instructed either to carry the service booklet, or else to cross their hands over their chest.

As is common knowledge, the Anglicans permit intercommunion, whereas it is the Roman Catholics who do not.

I hope I have made myself clear.

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