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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The coffin being open at a funeral is as good as unknown here.

Common for Afro-Caribbean funerals.
I grew up with that as a norm. It's done in US funeral homes, if the service is held there, and it's done in some of the less-catholic churches.
Maybe it’s a regional thing, but I can’t remember the last time I went to a funeral around here—whether in a church or a funeral home—with an open casket. It was somewhat common in some churches when I was younger, but the practice definitely seems to have faded.

Open caskets at a visitation the night before the funeral, on the other hand, are more common.

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
As I said, it was a silly mental picture.

My imagination-o-meter clearly needs recalibrating, as I'm sure all funeral directors are discreet in these matters (they get paid enough!).

[Biased]

IJ

Hehe.

It's as Spike says.

Coffin lids tend to be screwed into place, rather than nailed, so there's no banging to worry about.

In my experience, the coffin is usually designed with screws which have ornate tops that are just twisted into place. You can see the sort of thing I mean here.

At the end of the service, the pallbearers approach, place the lid on, screw it in place, then lift the coffin to remove it from the church. This way, it is the body, as opposed to the coffin lid, that is censed and sprinkled with holy water at various points in the service.

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Augustine the Aleut
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Two Orthodox funerals I have attended (one in Ottawa, the other in Toronto)-- both ROCOR (the more old-Russian of the Orthodox churches)-- had open caskets at the ceremony with some hand-kissing of the deceased. I was not present at the committal, so cannot tell if the lids were screwed on or the nails hammered in-- they were hammered-in in the David Lean film of Dr Zhivago.
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Cathscats
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When I did funeral training in Chicago (with the PC(USA)) I was told to beware of the undertakers, who tended to want to tell the novice clergy that of course the coffin would be open. My mentor said this was because they wanted to show off their embalming skills and wanted to have the limelight when closing it. In fact some of them, it seems, liked to have the congregation file out past the open coffin before closing it, presumably not if in a crematorium.

My mentor said such practises made it difficult for the message of the resurrection to stick with the mourners. [Biased]

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Brenda Clough
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There's a huge regional variation, as you can easily see, in funeral customs. Furthermore, because we're such a mobile society, people have different expectations. As a result, funeral directors will mostly do what you tell them to. If you say you want an open coffin, they'll do it.

If you, personally, want an open coffin service, be sure and tell somebody about it. Otherwise your next of kin will just do whatever they feel like. Communicate your wishes now, while you're on deck to do it, and there'll at least be a sporting chance it'll come off the way you want. And while you're at it you could make a note of the hymns you want sung, the psalm to be read, maybe even the preacher you do not want to deliver the homily. (I've already warned my husband about the one priest, who has a penchant for YouTube videos, that I don't want.)

[ 30. November 2017, 18:20: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Jengie jon

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An odd one and I cannot believe we have not tackled it before but I cannot recall the answer.

Why is purple used as a penitential colour when in the rest of life it is associated with royalty and wealth?

Jengie

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Corvo
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Something to do with Mark 15. 17-20 ?
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Jengie jon

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Maybe. I am googling but not finding anything consistent. I might try my father who is good on stories about the less seemly side of liturgical development.

Jengie

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Nick Tamen

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I seem to recall it having something to do with the darkness of the color, and maybe the way material dyed black (the penitential color before purple) faded.

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Nick Tamen

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Sorry to double post, but I just remembered something that may be pertinent: Technically speaking—at least in terms of the Catholic Church and the General Instructions for the Roman Missal—the color for Advent and Lent is violet, not purple. Standard English usage notwithstanding (except in ROYGBIV), violet and purple are not the same color. Violet is a little closer to blue while purple is a little closer to red.

It is the slightly-reddish purple that was expensive to make and was therefore associated with royalty and the rich. (Incidentally, the dye was made from shellfish, meaning that the purple robe that was mockingly placed on Jesus as “King of the Jews” was ritually unclean.)

It is the slightly-blueish violet that is the color of humility and penitence.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
(Incidentally, the dye was made from shellfish, meaning that the purple robe that was mockingly placed on Jesus as “King of the Jews” was ritually unclean.)

I stand corrected by a much more knowledgeable shipmate. While the first part of my statement is accurate, the second part is not. The dye was made from shellfish, but that would not make the clothing ritually unclean. Apologies, and my thanks for the correction.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Forthview
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We have a new priest who has been taking out of the storeroom in the church a number of old vestments for use in the liturgy. On All Souls' day I thought he was wearing a black chasuble which has not been liturgically correct since the Vatican Council in the 1960s.On looking closer it was indeed the colour which Nick Tamen has just described as violet. The same vestments are now being used in Advent. As a side issue it will make the change to the rose coloured vestments of the Third Sunday of Advent more apparent.

The word 'purple' and forms of this word in other languages can have different meanings. 'Raised to the sacred purple' is an expression meaning one has been made a cardinal. 'I porporati' is an expression in Italian which means 'Cardinals'

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Jengie jon

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Ok I have been googling. The reason for purple/violet is not clear still.

What is clear is the distinction of purple and violet liturgically is not colour but process. The purple you are talking of is Tyrian purple and was lost largely due to the fall of Constantinople in 1206. It was always expensive but with fall it became more reserved for the elite. Intriguingly the process is clearly related to the that for making the dye for Tekhelet which is a blue colour. The difference seems to be how much sunlight the dye is exposed to in creating.

That is purple so what is violet. The answer this is a mix of lesser dyes to create a non-colourfast hue of a similar colour to purple. Thi Pope Innocent III specified as an alternative for Black. I suspect in this case this refers to a purple colour that is caused by mixing red and blue dies. I suspect the mixing is important.

Oddly this use of purple or violet is almost the exact opposite of today. Violet is a perfect hue on the light spectrum while purple is the mix of red and blue.

Most of this I got from here .

I find the quote from this page on symbolism of colour as interesting
quote:
Judaism
In the Torah, Judaism's holy text, many colors are referenced and their meanings explained. Purple gets its symbolism in Judaism from the combination of two other colors, red and blue. In the Jewish tradition red symbolizes sin and blue represents the glorification of God, and when the two combine to form purple the meaning is transformed into one of redemption and purification.

Jengie

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georgiaboy
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Back to the open casket track:

In my childhood in the US Southern states, so no air conditioning, open doors & windows, etc. At pre-funeral visitations/'viewings' the open casket was covered with a thin lace veil draped from the open lid down across the body and hanging down in front. (IIRC black with a lace edge for men, white with a floral border for women & children).
I wondered much about this and asked my mother, who shushing me, said 'It's to keep the flies off, dear.'

Alas, it's been many years since I've seen one of these.

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churchgeek

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Jengie, that's so fascinating! Thank you!

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Jengie jon

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I should have said that mixing dyes of red and blue before we had modern pigments was a decidedly tricky process and that the 'purple' would often end up as brown. Thus the idea that 'purple' was a faded black has some traction. A good purple is a rare thing unless you have dyes that are pure hues. I discovered that in Junior School so sorry no web reference. Most purples would have been dirty colours.

Jengie

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Galilit
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The book The Rarest Blue by Baruch Sterman tells of the rediscovery of the secret of the Techelet/Davidian blue; the shellfish, the processing and the now-available "ptil ha-techelet"/blue thread for the fringes of the tallit/prayer shawl.

As I recall the pink-purple-blue spectrum was to do with exposure to light after immersion in the dye stuff. It's a few years since I read it (and what a page-turner it was!) so I can't remember which way it went (more light --> less blue, more purple or the opposite. But light was the critical variable.

Dyers would have been highly skilled and the rarity of the shellfish would also have contributed to the whole enterprise being incredibly expensive. But I imagine what there was would have been really good quality or rich people would not have bought it

Pity we can't ask Lydia (Acts 16)...

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Jengie jon

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There is article on the finding of the Tekhelet. There are apparently two snail species involved in the production of purple and blue and yes sunlight is important but then I get confused.

Jengie

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Brenda Clough
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I just put a reserve on the Sterman book at my local library.

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
We have a new priest who has been taking out of the storeroom in the church a number of old vestments for use in the liturgy. On All Souls' day I thought he was wearing a black chasuble which has not been liturgically correct since the Vatican Council in the 1960s.

Does All Souls' Day not come under the provision of masses for the dead, for which black is permitted? Or is it categorised separately?

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Galilit
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I meant of course "tzitzit" not "tallit"

[Hangs head in shame and thinks "What is the Hebrew for hara-kiri?"]

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Forthview
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Scrumpmeister Masses for the Dead which are funeral Masses may be celebrated in purple vestments or much more often these days in white vestments expressing hope and joy for the future.

On All Souls' Day the liturgical colour is purple.
To respect the integrity of the Tridentine rite the colour black would be used for a Requiem Mass.

At the end of the day even with the new rite I don't know who would complain if the mourners wished black vestments to be used.That being said few mourners would express such a wish.

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Prester John
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Back again to open caskets, it seems to be de rigueur among Filipinos whatever their confessional loyalties may be.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Scrumpmeister Masses for the Dead which are funeral Masses may be celebrated in purple vestments or much more often these days in white vestments expressing hope and joy for the future.

On All Souls' Day the liturgical colour is purple.
To respect the integrity of the Tridentine rite the colour black would be used for a Requiem Mass.

At the end of the day even with the new rite I don't know who would complain if the mourners wished black vestments to be used.That being said few mourners would express such a wish.

I have a definite recollection of the GIRM giving black as a permitted colour for masses for the dead. Mind you, it's been some years since I delved into the detail of the modern Roman Rite, so that may well have changed in the meanwhile.

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Ceremoniar
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The General Instruction of the Roman Missal does allow white, violet, or black vestments in Masses for the Dead. However, for All Souls Day, it specifies violet.
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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
There is article on the finding of the Tekhelet. There are apparently two snail species involved in the production of purple and blue and yes sunlight is important but then I get confused.

Jengie

All, incidentally, quite important to interpretation of Paul.

I forget why! [Killing me]

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Zappa
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No wait ... it was Revelation ...

quote:
At Acts 16:11–15, Luke recounts an encounter between
Paul and Lydia, the latter described as “from the city of Thyatira” and a
“dealer in purple cloth” (Luke was probably writing after John, so I am not
implying influence here). Purple cloth was made purple by dyeing with the
shellfish murex trunculus or murex brandaris, rendering those involved
ritually unclean, according to the Torah (Lev 11:10–12). It is probable that
Lydia and the women with her were particularly open to the gospel as they
were ritually unclean, on account of their trade, and ostracized by orthodox
Jews. They quickly accepted the gospel (Acts 16:14–15): by contrast,
the whore of John’s vision remains trapped in her purple adornments, immersed
in her uncleanness. There is a vivid illustration of the human need
for grace in this contrast between Luke’s humble gospel-recipient from Thyatira
and, in John’s vision written in part for the church at Thyatira (and no
doubt Philippi), the celestial whore of Babylon. Whether Lydia remained
in Philippi or returned to her home town of Thyatira, her story would have
been known to John’s audience, and the contrast between Lydia’s rejection
of a purple lifestyle and the whore epitomizing all that purple and scarlet
implied was a potent local image.

(I can quote that because I wrote it [Roll Eyes] ... fellow hosts, no copyright infringement)

Now back to scheduled broadcasts.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
No wait ... it was Revelation ...

quote:
At Acts 16:11–15, Luke recounts an encounter between
Paul and Lydia, the latter described as “from the city of Thyatira” and a “dealer in purple cloth” (Luke was probably writing after John, so I am not implying influence here). Purple cloth was made purple by dyeing with the shellfish murex trunculus or murex brandaris, rendering those involved ritually unclean, according to the Torah (Lev 11:10–12). It is probable that Lydia and the women with her were particularly open to the gospel as they were ritually unclean, on account of their trade, and ostracized by orthodox
Jews. They quickly accepted the gospel (Acts 16:14–15): by contrast, the whore of John’s vision remains trapped in her purple adornments, immersed in her uncleanness. There is a vivid illustration of the human need for grace in this contrast between Luke’s humble gospel-recipient from Thyatira and, in John’s vision written in part for the church at Thyatira (and no doubt Philippi), the celestial whore of Babylon. Whether Lydia remained in Philippi or returned to her home town of Thyatira, her story would have
been known to John’s audience, and the contrast between Lydia’s rejection of a purple lifestyle and the whore epitomizing all that purple and scarlet implied was a potent local image.

(I can quote that because I wrote it [Roll Eyes] ... fellow hosts, no copyright infringement)

Now back to scheduled broadcasts.

Zappa, are you sure of that? A. Was Lydia Jewish? She's described as a 'worshipper of God'. That implies that she was a Gentile fellow-traveller to some extent. and B. Even if she had been Jewish, was a person rendered tref by touching shellfish, rather than actually eating it?

[ 15. December 2017, 22:12: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal does allow white, violet, or black vestments in Masses for the Dead. However, for All Souls Day, it specifies violet.

Thank you for this.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Adeodatus
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I’ve just seen something on a tv show which has never occurred to me before: is champagne acceptable as communion wine? Personally, I can’t see why not. Champagne is unadulterated fermented fruit of the grape, so it ticks the boxes for me. (My only problem would be adding water to it, which is a Crime Against Champagne.)

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Bishops Finger
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No, I can't see why not - except that the fizz might make a susceptible communicant sneeze, in which case the Most Precious Blood would be....er.... broadcast around the sanctuary.

Which would not be a Good Thing.

IJ

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John3000
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Unadulterated wine is pretty hard to come by these days, sulphites and sugar being the most common additives. Is communion wine normally specially sourced and supplied for that purpose or is any old wine used? I should imagine truly unadulterated champagne is even hard to find...
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Bishops Finger
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Well, other churches may differ, but at Our Place (C of E, but Igh Church, Anglo-Carflick), we use a fairly bog-standard Chardonnay - the sort of thing you get for a fiver or so from Tesco or Asda.

There are, of course, special 'Communion Wines' available from ecclesiastical suppliers who are after £££, but, since Our Blessed Lord simply used the usual wine of His time at the Last Supper, I don't see that we (in our time) need to be too precious about it.

IJ

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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There are suppliers of altar wine, which is always a notch more expensive. In the interests of economy we (the Altar Guild, who does the buying) switched long ago to a cheap ruby port which we buy in big jugs. Our congregation likes it sweet and red; if it's not sweet enough there's muttering and complaint.
At one point in the past we had a very zealous deacon who assured us that the communion wine should not be sweet, because the cup of Jesus was a bitter one. Since the AG's duty is to do what the clergy wants, I offered to buy the most horrid (and cheap) bottle of plonk on offer and try it out in the chalices. Luckily wiser clergy heads prevailed and we have stuck to sweet red port.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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We also use Port, which I buy at our local wine mega-store.

Since Communion wine is not usually refrigerated after opening, a high alcoholic content helps save it becoming something like what Our Blessed Saviour was offered on a sponge while on the Cross.

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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Ah, now I’d always heard that port was out of order because it’s fortified with spirits (or some such technicality). As to additives like sulphites, I expect they’re covered in the rubrics by whatever the Latin is for “wiggle room”.

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Angloid
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# 159

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I've noticed that (with a few exceptions) the higher the church, the whiter the wine. Low church places tend to be the ones that go for dark sticky red port. Since they are also less likely to claim that the wine 'is' blood, it seems counter-intuitive to me. Any suggestions as to why? (White wine makes it easier to wash purificators).
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Gee D
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# 13815

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Sevenhill Winery in South Australia was established by the Jesuits to make communion wine and still does. And if it's not straying into advertising, their normal drinking wines are also very pleasant. Very hard to find in bottle shops but easy to order in dozen lots.

BTW, Apera is the name now usd here for sherry-style wines, just as sparkling wines can now longer be called champagne etc.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Basilica
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# 16965

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, other churches may differ, but at Our Place (C of E, but Igh Church, Anglo-Carflick), we use a fairly bog-standard Chardonnay - the sort of thing you get for a fiver or so from Tesco or Asda.

There are, of course, special 'Communion Wines' available from ecclesiastical suppliers who are after £££, but, since Our Blessed Lord simply used the usual wine of His time at the Last Supper, I don't see that we (in our time) need to be too precious about it.

IJ

I think this is quite an interesting question (for a very narrow theological definition of interesting).

It is certainly undeniable that Jesus used the wine of his day. But how does that translate today? Should we use the wine of our day, or the closest we can get to the wine of Jesus' day?

For me, as a theologically conservative Anglo-Catholic, I'd prefer to go towards using the wine (and bread, for that matter) of Jesus' day. I'm a big fan of the scandal of particularity -- it's not just the general principles of "incarnation" that matter; it's the details.

Both sides can be taken to a logical extreme. On the one hand, you can end up requiring the bread and wine to be specific, licensed forms. On the other, you can end up celebrating the Eucharist with sliced white from Asda and Coke. Both take the argument too far, IMO.

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I've noticed that (with a few exceptions) the higher the church, the whiter the wine. Low church places tend to be the ones that go for dark sticky red port. Since they are also less likely to claim that the wine 'is' blood, it seems counter-intuitive to me. Any suggestions as to why? (White wine makes it easier to wash purificators).

If what is in the chalice is blood, it is much less important that it looks like blood. In fact it can help to reinforce precisely that point.
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Pigwidgeon

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# 10192

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One snarky priest I knew referred to white Communion wine as "The plasma of Our Lord."

[Roll Eyes]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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georgiaboy
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# 11294

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Regarding champagne in the chalice:

One of my professors, who was ordained in Belgium, said that the wine at his first mass was 'fizzy and bubbly,' so presumably champagne or one of its cousins.

And in a parish where I formerly worked there was a New Year's Eve mass at which champagne was used.

On the subject of red v white wines:

I recall that in the A-C parish in which I was confirmed a sacramental wine called 'Angelica' was used. It was rather like a light, dry sherry, IIRC.

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Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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I am also informed that it is essential that the wine have alcohol in it. In other words, no grape juice. Don't know how true this is, or how universal.

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I am also informed that it is essential that the wine have alcohol in it. In other words, no grape juice. Don't know how true this is, or how universal.

Someone else please correct me if I have this wrong, but my understanding is that the RC rule is that must may be used in certain circumstances, such as when a priest is an alcoholic. Must is grape juice that has not yet started fermenting. It has trace amounts of alcohol. The difference between must and, say, Welch's is that nothing such as pasteurization has been done to must to prevent fermentation—it's still possible, it just hasn’t gotten going yet.

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, other churches may differ, but at Our Place (C of E, but Igh Church, Anglo-Carflick), we use a fairly bog-standard Chardonnay - the sort of thing you get for a fiver or so from Tesco or Asda.

There are, of course, special 'Communion Wines' available from ecclesiastical suppliers who are after £££, but, since Our Blessed Lord simply used the usual wine of His time at the Last Supper, I don't see that we (in our time) need to be too precious about it.

IJ

I think this is quite an interesting question (for a very narrow theological definition of interesting).

It is certainly undeniable that Jesus used the wine of his day. But how does that translate today? Should we use the wine of our day, or the closest we can get to the wine of Jesus' day?

For me, as a theologically conservative Anglo-Catholic, I'd prefer to go towards using the wine (and bread, for that matter) of Jesus' day. I'm a big fan of the scandal of particularity -- it's not just the general principles of "incarnation" that matter; it's the details.

Both sides can be taken to a logical extreme. On the one hand, you can end up requiring the bread and wine to be specific, licensed forms. On the other, you can end up celebrating the Eucharist with sliced white from Asda and Coke. Both take the argument too far, IMO.

The directive in my tribe is that “[t]he bread used for the Lord’s Supper should be common to the culture of the congregation.” I agree it can be taken to the extreme, though I have rarely seen that happen.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Basilica
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# 16965

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
The directive in my tribe is that “[t]he bread used for the Lord’s Supper should be common to the culture of the congregation.” I agree it can be taken to the extreme, though I have rarely seen that happen.

You are fortunate! I have seen it happen, and in a church the directive you quote is assuredly not in force!

Both are, I think, theologically sustainable positions to hold. I lean towards the "literal" translation of the rite; but I can see why others prefer a "dynamic" translation.

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JeffTL
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# 16722

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The Roman Catholic Diocese of St. Petersburg (http://www.dosp.org/worship/wp-content/uploads/sites/28/Wine-Used-for-Mass-2011.pdf) allows anything 8-20% abv and made of grapes, which could theoretically include Port but I've never known Roman Catholics to use it. The Diocese of Davenport (http://www.davenportdiocese.org/documents/2016/6/litWinesEucharist-updated112711.pdf) requires 8-14% abv (explicitly prohibiting fortified wine), but notably endorses the entire table wine production of California, plus a handful of local wineries in Iowa, as appropriate for sacramental use. Davenport prohibits sparkling wine due to the presence of added sugars.

My personal view on the matter is also unfavorable to sparkling wine for the Eucharist, but coming at it from a different angle. I've seen pictures of liturgies where such wine was consecrated still in the (usually prestigious) bottle. While the elements should certainly be of excellent quality, this seems to cross the line into conspicuous consumption at the altar, regardless of any deeper questions about whether it is wine-y enough or a needless breach of tradition. Save it for coffee hour along with equally attractive alternatives.

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Wikipedia article on Sacramental Wine seems quite knowledgeable including on the fortifying with spirit.

Jengie

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Corvo
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# 15220

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I've noticed that (with a few exceptions) the higher the church, the whiter the wine. Low church places tend to be the ones that go for dark sticky red port. Since they are also less likely to claim that the wine 'is' blood, it seems counter-intuitive to me. Any suggestions as to why? (White wine makes it easier to wash purificators).

It is because it 'is' blood it that doesn't need to look like blood.

Sticky redness makes it 'look like' blood (because it isn't).

[ 21. December 2017, 07:15: Message edited by: Corvo ]

Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
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# 14322

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Two questions particularly for Ecclesiantics who are into church music.

The first, is something I've wondered about for some time. Is there a reason why choristers seem to pronounce 'l's in such an odd way?

The second is, do many really serious organists, especially the young male ones, get a bit geeky about all the technology, stops to pull, ways to synchronise that etc.? Do any of them get a thrill from being let loose on an instrument that has got more keyboards than anyone can play simultaneously?

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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Qoheleth.

Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265

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I tried to introduce 'amber' communion wine here (moderately A-C) and was dissuaded by those who feared congregational revolt. We might try again next year, after some gentle teaching.

As I said at the time, if the wine has to be blood-red, then it should be accompanied by a realistic Body.

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Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is there a reason why choristers seem to pronounce 'l's in such an odd way?

I don't know what you mean. Could you explain more thoroughly?

Choristers are given lots of pronunciation advice, though. For example: the letter "r" barely exists in positions other than at the beginning of words. Thus, "peace on earth" would sound more like "peace on eth". And at the beginning of a word "r" is always trilled.

We are also told to lean our vowels toward an "ah" sound and to avoid "uh". Thus, "child" sounds more like "chah-ild" and "come" sounds like "cah-im" rather than "cuh-im."

And a hard "c" is always to be emphasized almost to the point of sounding like a chiff on an organ pipe.

We are told to emphasize consonants in general, which might be what you are getting at with your question re the "l" sound. It can be overdone, though.

quote:
Do many really serious organists, especially the young male ones, get . . . a thrill from being let loose on an instrument that has got more keyboards than anyone can play simultaneously?
I can't speak from experience, but organists whom I know do indeed wax ecstatic when let loose on a truly outstanding instrument.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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