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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Amanda, it's a bit difficult to explain what I mean. I was noticing it when I was watching the service at King's College, Cambridge this afternoon, but I've noticed it before.
On organs, I was asking not so much about the quality of the instrument, the organ equivalent of a Strad, so much as just the thrill of having all those knobs to pull and keyboards to twiddle on.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is there a reason why choristers seem to pronounce 'l's in such an odd way?
I don't know what you mean. Could you explain more thoroughly?
Yes, please.
Do you mean how it’s more noticeable in singing that “I” is a diphthong—“ah:ee”? A (good) singer never moves to the second vowel of the diphthong until the end of the diphthong: “maaaaaaah-een” for “mine.” Otherwise you get “maah-eeeeen.”
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Sorry, I realise I was ambiguous. I'm full of cold at the moment and not thinking as clearly as I would wish. The 'l' was a small 'L'.
[ 25. December 2017, 07:56: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
As a chorister, I can't recall being told to pronounce "L" sounds in any specific way. I've listened to some of the King's College Youtubes, though, and I think I see what you mean.
I wonder if regional differences are coming into play here.
Our good savants tell us (at least Wikipedia says they do) that "L" is an "alveolar lateral approximant" and that there are four variants of it: dental, denti-alveolar, alveolar, and postalveolar, all referring to the exact spot at which the tongue touches the teeth or the alveolar ridge when articulating the "L" sound.
I wonder if the choirboys at King's don't use one of those variants in their everyday speech, and thus in their singing as well. I would say that my "L"s are "dental" and that the choirboys' "L"s are "denti-alveolar", but I'm no linguist and certainly not a savant -- nor is my hearing what it used to be.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've never done linguistics and I can't follow what those terms mean. In normal English as spoken here, I think there are two 'L' sounds, one where it comes at the beginning of the word, and the other at the end of words and often in the middle. So a word like 'label' includes both. But what choristers sound as though they are singing is different from either. It isn't singing one, where you'd expect to hear the other.
The chorister one is distinctive but I don't know how to describe it. As I can't work out how they produce it, I can't describe how to emulate it.
Welsh contains a third 'L' sound represented by 'll' but the chorister one isn't that one either (which isn't a sort of 'thl' the way a lot of us English think we're representing it with).
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
When did Christmas become Christmass? Or, given the word, when did it become Christmas from Christ's Mass, then go back? I'm seeing it regularly in Anglican churches' service booklets.
I do not recall Christmass in my youth. Then again, I grew up in Sydney so Mass was verboten in most parts.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Well, it seems to be common for other major feasts like Candlemas and Michaelmas too.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Christmas has become Christmass? I haven’t seen that; it hasn’t found it’s way here, apparently, and with luck it never will.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Not necessarily common, but 'advanced' A-C churches seem to like adding the extra 's'. I guess it's supposed to reinforce the idea that it's a Christian religious festival...
Seems a bit precious, IMHO.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Well, it seems to be common for other major feasts like Candlemas and Michaelmas too.
"Childermas" for Holy Innocents. And on 1st January, the feast of the Circumcision of Our Lord, I like to wish my friends a Merry Brismas.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I've never done linguistics and I can't follow what those terms mean. In normal English as spoken here, I think there are two 'L' sounds, one where it comes at the beginning of the word, and the other at the end of words and often in the middle. So a word like 'label' includes both. But what choristers sound as though they are singing is different from either. It isn't singing one, where you'd expect to hear the other.
The chorister one is distinctive but I don't know how to describe it. As I can't work out how they produce it, I can't describe how to emulate it.
Welsh contains a third 'L' sound represented by 'll' but the chorister one isn't that one either (which isn't a sort of 'thl' the way a lot of us English think we're representing it with).
These concepts can be difficult to describe. Are you able to link us to a recording of what you mean?
There are various free apps that will record an mp3 on a mobile phone or tablet. I use Hi-Q. This can then just be uploaded to Google Drive or similar and a link posted here.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Perhaps not, if that's the word (i.e. Mass) one's parish habitually uses on noticeboards, service booklets etc.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
These concepts can be difficult to describe. Are you able to link us to a recording of what you mean?
There are various free apps that will record an mp3 on a mobile phone or tablet. I use Hi-Q. This can then just be uploaded to Google Drive or similar and a link posted here.
A link to a YouTube video would work too—perhaps one of the choir at King's College, since that’s where Enoch mentioned noticing it.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
If you can access it, Here's a youtube of the King's Carol Service for 2015, sound only. It's very marked in the treble solo of the first verse in Once in Royal David's City in the 'L's in 'royal' and 'cattle', less marked in some of the other 'L's. It's almost but not quite as though there's an extra very short vowel being inserted.
And as a comparison, here's a youtube of the service from 1954 this time with visuals, where the soloist is not doing it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If you can access it, Here's a youtube of the King's Carol Service for 2015, sound only. It's very marked in the treble solo of the first verse in Once in Royal David's City in the 'L's in 'royal' and 'cattle', less marked in some of the other 'L's. It's almost but not quite as though there's an extra very short vowel being inserted.
And as a comparison, here's a youtube of the service from 1954 this time with visuals, where the soloist is not doing it.
Thanks. I'll admit that I don’t hear a big difference in the Ls. It does sound a bit like the chorister is coming to the L earlier in the syllable and singing through it, rather than hitting the L quickly at the very end of the syllable. Unlike many other consonants, L does not stop the sound and can be sung on pitch.
And he may be throwing a very quick schwa between the L and the next consonant—d or sh—for enunciation purposes.
[ 27. December 2017, 20:55: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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John3000
Apprentice
# 18786
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Posted
Just wondering if christenings are ever done nowadays on Christmas Day, should it be a Sunday?
I've been researching my family tree and I see that one of my ancestors was baptised in the CoE as an infant on Sunday 25th December 1817.
Perhaps this reflects the increased significance lent to Christmas now compared to days gone by. Another relative came to a rather grim end on Christmas Day 1908 and the inquest in front of a full jury was held on the 26th!
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I guess Sunday is the most common day for Baptisms, especially if a family party is coming from Far and Wide.
Our Place offers Baptism either during the Sunday Mass (usually taken up by church families, not that there are that many of them), or at 12 noon, after the Mass.
We do sometimes, for various logistical or pastoral reasons, hold Baptisms on another convenient day, such as a Saturday.
It's traditional, in some parts of the C of E at least, not to celebrate Baptism during Lent (unless it's an emergency, of course).
Christmas Day - even if not a Sunday - seems a very suitable occasion for a Baptism!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I've just realised I've misunderstood John3000's post, by reading an 'or' in front of 'should'!
Oops - my bad. Sorry about that. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
My daughter was baptised on a Wednesday (at the regular mid-week Eucharist; no point being welcomed into the family of the church if that family aren't there to greet you) so that we could all be in the same place at the same time - consequences of living a long way from grandparents and godparents who are clergy.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
My children were baptised in the church where I spent most of my childhood at Evensong on a Low Sunday when the church's own choir and organist were officially "off"; it wasn't exactly a problem since among the Godparents alone we had 3 FRCOs, all the GPs sang well, and the guests/ GP's plus ones made up a fine impromptu choir so we had Dyson in D, Smith responses and Blessed be the God and Father.
The congregation were appreciative and the incumbent looked slightly shell-shocked; the infants slept through the whole thing.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
FRCOs?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
The clue is in the poster's ship name.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I don't quite understand how an organist is necessarily a good singer though.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Don't worry. FRCO means nothing to me either, and still doesn't. Obviously, we none of us belong to the right in-crowd. We have been put in our places, doubtless appropriately.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Fellows of the Royal College of Organists. And, again: they can play - but can they necessarily sing?
I like the idea of the GPs singing well - I wasn't aware that the Accident & Emergency Department had a choir! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
[ 02. January 2018, 09:06: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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John3000
Apprentice
# 18786
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I don't quite understand how an organist is necessarily a good singer though.
They will hopefully at least know the tune, whereas I wouldn't expect a random party of christening guests to even attempt to sing Dyson in D from memory.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I like the idea of the GPs singing well
Urogenital would make a catchy rhyme.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
That really is taking the piss out of the original post.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
All right, all right,: GPs = Godparents.
Yes, FRCO = Fellow of the Royal College of Organists.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Thank you, all.
---
A question I keep forgetting to ask. Why do the Catholics (at least down here) collect 2 sets of monetary offerings? Is one for the parish, one for the diocese? Or one for the parish, one for the poor?
The Russian Orthodox church I frequented in Newcastle had 2 collections - one for the church and one for the archdiocese. I did hear that people were more generous with one than the other!
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
Here in the US, there are often (but not always) second collections. When there are, the intent of the second collection (missions in Africa, the diocesan seminary where diocesan clergy are trained, collections for the order which administers the parish) is announced before the second collection is taken.
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
All right, all right,: GPs = Godparents.
And there was I, thinking you were talking about doctors!
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
Here in the US, there are often (but not always) second collections. When there are, the intent of the second collection is announced before the second collection is taken.
Would that were the case here. On High Feast Days, if I can call them that!, a mention may be made of work in Israel or similar, but from week to week I remain unsure.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
In my part of the UK (CofE) we only have two collections if one is a "special" - in other words for some special appeal (likely to be a natural disaster or similar) or a special cause or focused-on institution.
The first collection is that taken during the Offertory Hymn and is for the church: it is of cash - loose or in envelopes so we can claim tax relief - and those who use the direct debit planned giving scheme can take a token as they enter to put into the plate. Once all the bags/plates have been circulated they are processed to the altar where the Prayer over the gifts is used before they are taken to a side table.
The second collection is always advertised during the notices, which are read out just before the Peace and Offertory, and is collected by plates placed by the doors. People who wish to use the gift aid tax relief scheme can use a special envelope which is available next to the plate. A sidesperson is always on duty (collecting hymn books, etc) by the plate and once everyone other than sidespeople have left church the second ("retiring") collection is carried into the vestry where the duty churchwarden and sidesperson/people will say a short prayer of thanks before it is counted out, recorded and placed in the safe for the treasurer to deal with.
Second collections that come to mind over the past year include: Grenfell Tower appeal, Christian Aid, Water Aid, various DEC appeals, RSCM (Church Music Sunday) and, of course, the traditional Easter Offering.
The only time when two "causes" will be collected for in the same plate is at funerals/memorial services where, if the family suggest it, donations to a chosen charity can be made in the plate by the door if the envelopes are provided for the purpose.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In my part of the UK (CofE) we only have two collections if one is a "special" - in other words for some special appeal (likely to be a natural disaster or similar) or a special cause or focused-on institution.
Two collections are unheard of in my tribe, and I suspect having two collections would be considered somewhat bizarre. If there is some kind of special appeal or offering, it is dealt with by some combination of:
• marked envelopes placed in the pews that the special offering can be placed in before being put in the offering plate;
• the memo line on checks; and
• an announcement that any “loose” offering (cash or undesignated check) will go to the special cause.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
In other words in exactly the same way that it is dealt with at my place, its just that you don't label them as separate.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
In these days of direct debits and bank transfers, cheques are increasingly rare and many people don't carry spare cash. I suspect 'passing the plate' during services is one of those traditions that will soon disappear. It has already in many places.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Fifty years ago it was standard practice in RC churches in Scotland to have two collections, one at the offertory and then one after Communion. That is ignoring also the special monthly collection and the others at Christmas and Easter.
That has long since disappeared. We do have a second collection for a special occasion from time to time. Our present parish priest prefers that the second collection should be a retiring collection, but those responsible for the collecting keep reminding him that a retiring collection will be significantly lower than one where a plate is put directly in front of the churchgoers. So many people will just slip past a plate which is held out at the door of the church.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In other words in exactly the same way that it is dealt with at my place, its just that you don't label them as separate.
Not really, if I understood you correctly, as in my tribe both would be collected simultaneously at the Offertory, not one at the Offertory and the other at the door as people leave.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
In these days of direct debits and bank transfers, cheques are increasingly rare and many people don't carry spare cash. I suspect 'passing the plate' during services is one of those traditions that will soon disappear. It has already in many places.
We still have lots of people who pay their pledge by check, which they put in the plate. There are also lots of smaller churches around here that don’t have electronic payment methods.
That said, we’ve started putting cards in the pews that can be used to note electronic payments or to note/offer non-monetary contributions, particularly in terms of volunteering, whether with the church or elsewhere. We went this direction for a couple of reasons:
• a sense that collecting an offering serves a meaningful purpose;
• a desire to emphasize that the offering is about more than money;
• a desire to enable everyone, including those who give electronically or whatever, to participate; and
• a desire to gather information about all the ways members of the congregation give of their time and their talents.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Interesting, Nick. Do you get many people using the cards to inform you of their gifts and talents?
It's certainly important to emphasise that stewardship is not just about £££ (or $$$)!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
There are also lots of smaller churches around here that don’t have electronic payment methods.
I have my bank configured to send my contribution to the church monthly. What this means in practice is that the bank prints a check and mails it to the church, who then banks it.
quote:
That said, we’ve started putting cards in the pews that can be used to note electronic payments or to note/offer non-monetary contributions, particularly in terms of volunteering, whether with the church or elsewhere.
We ask people to pledge whatever level of financial support they can annually (which helps with budgeting) and on the same form invite people to pledge all the non-monetary support they offer (volunteering in whatever capacity). As you say, we need money, but we don't just need money - we need people to commit to being a community.
Cards noting electronic or whatever payments made to support the church were brought up at our AGM a couple of years ago. There was one person who was keen that some kind of indicator or token representing his personal offering be brought to the altar to be blessed, and nobody else who thought they would take advantage of such a facility.
The one person said that his current practice was to place a couple of dollars in the plate and consider them a marker for his rather more substantial automatic contribution, and that he was happy to continue with that. So we all shrugged and said "OK then".
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Our own, and other churches at which I worship, no longer pass a plate. It is st the entrance so those who wish can place a gift in it as they arrive (making use of Gift Aid envelopes if they wish). The offering is presented and dedicated during the service, but there is still a plate at the back after the service for any who wish to make an offering but missed the plate on their way in.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Our own, and other churches at which I worship, no longer pass a plate. It is st the entrance so those who wish can place a gift in it as they arrive (making use of Gift Aid envelopes if they wish). The offering is presented and dedicated during the service, but there is still a plate at the back after the service for any who wish to make an offering but missed the plate on their way in.
Are there any security concerns about either procedure and what does your auditor say? Ours would be very unhappy about it.
[ 05. January 2018, 20:12: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I have noticed how in Spain the collection is taken up in cloth bags. Enquiring of a local why this was instead of collection plates, he said that there were two explanations; either that it reduced the embarrassment from the sound of coins in the plate, or the possibility that breezes might cause the banknotes to fly away.
The late spouse of one of my former colleagues grew up gay in a Lutheran household in Missouri in the 1950s and had many stories about the experience. He told me that he attended a service where a neighbouring Holiness minister informed worshippers as the plate was being passed that he did not want to hear the jingle-jangle of the devils' hooves, but the gentle rustle of the angels' wings.
As my home parish features many SCA rejectees who really wish that they could place half-crowns, livres and sols, and wampum, as their offering, most of the collection comes up as cheques in envelopes. The parish treasurer would dearly love more of us to convert to electronic automatic payments. I suspect that he would happily allow the SCA types to place beaver pelts or beads on the plate as their symbolic offering if they would but sign up to an automatic payment.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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) mokopuna (grandchildren) of the coordinating priest. I was presiding but stepped aside for that part of the liturgy.
