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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Mockingbird

Mimus polyglottos navis
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
a church is dedicated to a saint

Churches are dedicated to God. They may, of course, be named in honor of saints.

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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
a church is dedicated to a saint

Churches are dedicated to God. They may, of course, be named in honor of saints.
Since when was being dedicated to God and dedicated to a saint (or several saints) mutually exclusive? From some googling it seems that churches are consecrated to God but dedicated to saints.

Ceremoniar - thank you for the information, although it seems like the RCC backpedals a bit re saints with dodgy history. I think it's quite obvious that St Christopher, St Valentine etc never really existed.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Ceremoniar
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Ceremoniar - thank you for the information, although it seems like the RCC backpedals a bit re saints with dodgy history. I think it's quite obvious that St Christopher, St Valentine etc never really existed.

I completely disagree. There are actually three different Saints named Valentine, two of whom are connected with 14 February--hardly "obvious." The Roman Martyrology is the official tome on this, and is a multi-volume set, not available online. No one denies that pious legends grew up around early saints, but that does not mean they never existed. When one sees some of Rome's earliest churches named for these saints, that becomes another witness.

BTW, here is an Episcopal Church named for St. Christopher. web page

[ 16. March 2014, 23:06: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

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Pomona
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I'm well aware that non-Catholic churches are dedicated to St Christopher! It still doesn't mean that St Christopher actually existed. And maybe someone called Valentine existed, but there are at least three martyrologies for a Valentine. I understand that you have to believe the official RCC line but the rest of us don't have to. It is pretty obvious that some saints never actually existed, but why that matters I don't understand. We can still appreciate the legends about them.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm well aware that non-Catholic churches are dedicated to St Christopher! It still doesn't mean that St Christopher actually existed. And maybe someone called Valentine existed, but there are at least three martyrologies for a Valentine. I understand that you have to believe the official RCC line but the rest of us don't have to. It is pretty obvious that some saints never actually existed, but why that matters I don't understand. We can still appreciate the legends about them.

It matters because a saint can't pray for you if he or she doesn't exist.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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At least one (Roman) Catholic church exists dedicated to St. Christopher and that church is situated in Cheam, greater London (South) and I have been to it. It was formerly the chapel of Cheam School - which is another story.
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Augustine the Aleut
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Valentinus was a fairly common Roman name and given the large numbers martyred at Rome and in North Africa under various emperors, it is highly likely that there was a Valentinus among them and not impossible that one of the acta had its origins in fact. The Canadian BCP has his entry bracketed as one of those "whose historical character is obscure," which is probably the best way to put it.

I know of no Anglican S Valentine's, although there are plenty of RC ones; there are several Anglican S Christopher's about, including one about 2 hours walk from me. When I was in Ireland, many dedications were to Celtic saints of whom very little was known for certain and sometimes even legends were no longer available. One noted historian of the CoI told me that he had no idea if the patron of one of the points in his parish was male or female. He added that it was fortunate that God was broadminded enough to see that men could be saints and made that a sermon topic one year.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
It matters because a saint can't pray for you if he or she doesn't exist.

[Smile]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm well aware that non-Catholic churches are dedicated to St Christopher! It still doesn't mean that St Christopher actually existed. And maybe someone called Valentine existed, but there are at least three martyrologies for a Valentine. I understand that you have to believe the official RCC line but the rest of us don't have to. It is pretty obvious that some saints never actually existed, but why that matters I don't understand. We can still appreciate the legends about them.

It matters because a saint can't pray for you if he or she doesn't exist.
And? Lots of saints exist, they can pray for you instead.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Carys

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Anyone experienced the use of incense at a funeral (not a requiem mass)? If so, when was it used?

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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Emendator Liturgia
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I've been at funerals when incense was used when it wasn't a requiem. It was used to cense the coffin when it arrived at the church door (after being sprinkled with holy water), and after the prayers immediately before the Farewell and Committal (again with a good asperging of holy water on all four sides).

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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!

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Corvo
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
I've been at funerals when incense was used when it wasn't a requiem. It was used to cense the coffin when it arrived at the church door (after being sprinkled with holy water), and after the prayers immediately before the Farewell and Committal (again with a good asperging of holy water on all four sides).

We only use it to cense the coffin before the Farewell and then to lead it out of the church.
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Adam.

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Incense is an option in paragraph 200 of the (Roman Rite) Funeral Liturgy outside of Mass. This is as part of the Final Commendation, after the invitation to prayer before the prayer of commendation. The options specify that incensation might happen before, during or after the (optional) song of farewell. I've never done this outside of Mass though.

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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm well aware that non-Catholic churches are dedicated to St Christopher! It still doesn't mean that St Christopher actually existed. And maybe someone called Valentine existed, but there are at least three martyrologies for a Valentine. I understand that you have to believe the official RCC line but the rest of us don't have to. It is pretty obvious that some saints never actually existed, but why that matters I don't understand. We can still appreciate the legends about them.

It matters because a saint can't pray for you if he or she doesn't exist.
And? Lots of saints exist, they can pray for you instead.
On a side note, when Rome declared that the poor man Lazarus (who got taken up into the Bosom of Abraham after death, not the Lazarus that Jesus resurrected) was merely a character in a parable and probably not a real person, they ordered churches dedicated to this St. Lazarus to change their names. San Lazaro happens to be hugely popular among the Cuban community in South Florida, so a group of them left the Roman Catholic Church with some priests and set up their own church "El Rincon de San Lazaro" where they have weekly Mass and continue the huge indoor/outdoor celebration of his feast day every year. All because of some post-Vatican II housecleaning in the calendar of Saints.
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Enoch
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Is there really a word "incensation"?

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Ceremoniar
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Yes, incensation is the correct word.

Carys, according to which missal are you inquiring? The precise times vary with the missal. All of them, however, use incense and holy water on the body at the final commendation.

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Enoch
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Does it mean something different from censing?

[ 19. March 2014, 21:00: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
It matters because a saint can't pray for you if he or she doesn't exist.

Perhaps, but surely some other saint might overhear the entreaty and strike up a prayer in response.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Does it mean something different from censing?

Nope. It means exactly the same thing.

All that's going on is a drift from verb incense to the verb cense, travelling the same road as from inflammable to flammable.

I'll go to my grave saying, "uninflammable", but "cense" does escape my lips, when to do otherwise would be seen to be pretentious.

Please pause to take note of the post-20th-century self-irony.

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Clavus
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John Kensit was incensed when he was incensed.
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Bishops Finger
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At our last Parish Carol Service, the local Baptist minister, our guest preacher, (accompanied by a good number of his flock), remarked that it was the first time his congregation had been incensed before he started his sermon.....

.....in all fairness, only one of his people found our Rosa Mystica uncomfortable.....!

We have learned a valuable lesson - if engaged in Ecumenical Worship, just think that not everyone has the same tolerance of Carflick practices......

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bishops Finger
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In answer to Carys' earlier query re incense at funerals outside Requiem Masses, Father and I were recently asked to help out at a simple but poignant Common Worship funeral held at a MOTR village church in our Deanery - the deceased had now and then come to Our Place for what he called 'proper religion'!

In conjunction with the Team Vicar, we duly provided Holy Water and Incense as required, to the edification of all present (a packed church), and, as thurifer (not by any means my usual role), I was greatly diverted by the thought that this was probably the first time incense had been used in this Church since before the Reformation!

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
At our last Parish Carol Service, the local Baptist minister, our guest preacher, (accompanied by a good number of his flock), remarked that it was the first time his congregation had been incensed before he started his sermon.....

.....in all fairness, only one of his people found our Rosa Mystica uncomfortable.....!

We have learned a valuable lesson - if engaged in Ecumenical Worship, just think that not everyone has the same tolerance of Carflick practices......

Ian J.

Was the Baptist Minister joking or serious?
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Pancho
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
On a side note, when Rome declared that the poor man Lazarus (who got taken up into the Bosom of Abraham after death, not the Lazarus that Jesus resurrected) was merely a character in a parable and probably not a real person, they ordered churches dedicated to this St. Lazarus to change their names.

I'm having trouble finding a reference for this. Are you able to point to a link somewhere? Wikipedia and the online Patron Saints Index both list him as a saint with a feast day and don't mention a declaration from Rome.

Now, when some of the saints like St. Christopher and St. Valentine were removed from the modern General Roman Calendar their dedications weren't necessarily removed from churches. For example, there's an old Spanish Mission in California dedicated to St. Barbara that has kept it's name and it's an active Catholic parish run by the Franciscans.

If a church in Miami did have its dedication to St. Lazarus removed I suspect it might have been a local decision rather than one from high up.

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Adam.

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With priestly ordination just five weeks off now (gulp!), I'm looking to buy or make a credit card sized laminated plastic card with the formula of absolution on one side and anointing on the other. Either English / Spanish bilingual, or one of each. A quick look through ecclesiastical suppliers catalogues hasn't helped me locate these, and all of the online options I've found for printing such things will only do them in huge bulk. I wouldn't object to getting a few, as I can give them to friends as ordination presents, but I don't really want 250.

Does anyone have any ideas?

[I do have the formulae on my phone, and have them memorized, but you never know when your phone will be out of batteries and your mind will go blank. Last summer my confessor of 40 years experience suddenly had a mind blink on the formula of absolution during my confession and immediately got a card out of his pocket with it on.]

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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

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gog
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I wouldn't object to getting a few, as I can give them to friends as ordination presents, but I don't really want 250.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Credit card size laminating pouches, print it on card and put through a standard laminator. Job done.
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Bishops Finger
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EFF - the Baptist Minister was indeed being facetious (and his flock appreciated the joke - most of them, bar one or two, also appreciated the incense...).

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
EFF - the Baptist Minister was indeed being facetious (and his flock appreciated the joke - most of them, bar one or two, also appreciated the incense...).

Ian J.

Right you are. I perceived that a serious side was being taken into account.
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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Does anyone have any ideas?

Failing a better idea, is the price so prohibitive that you can't just have the lot of 250 printed up? You can easily Johnny-Appleseed them about over the next decade or three.
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Lamb Chopped
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Get the "print-it-yourself" business card blanks from an office supply store (or use a W*rd business card template on plain white paper if you want to be Really Cheap). Type in the words, choose a nice font, copy into all the little boxes, print, and then repeat with the paper turned over for the other text. If this is too complicated, any secretary can do it (bring a nice bribe). Cut apart the resulting cards and trot down to your nearest Copymax, Kinko's or similar place where they do laminating, and ask the person ar the counter what they recommend in terms of price and quality. You don't want to just laminate the sheet first and then cut the cards apart, as the laminate adheres to itself and not to paper--so a small margin of laminate must be left around the four edges of each card to prevent peeling.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Jengie jon

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I think I know where I would go for this but it is not going to be in their online catalogue as it requires me going to the shop and with the card design and getting them to make it up. However this should help you find a place locally. It is a small stationers that does specialists jobs such as small runs printing, photocopying, binding and laminating. It is the small runs that means they will do say a dozen cards for you.

If the worst comes to the worst let me have the details and I will see if I can get them made up for you. However it seems ridiculous having to use a Protestant in England to supply this for a Roman Catholic in USA.

Jengie

[ 22. March 2014, 10:45: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
With priestly ordination just five weeks off now (gulp!), I'm looking to buy or make a credit card sized laminated plastic card with the formula of absolution on one side and anointing on the other. Either English / Spanish bilingual, or one of each. A quick look through ecclesiastical suppliers catalogues hasn't helped me locate these, and all of the online options I've found for printing such things will only do them in huge bulk. I wouldn't object to getting a few, as I can give them to friends as ordination presents, but I don't really want 250.

Does anyone have any ideas?

[I do have the formulae on my phone, and have them memorized, but you never know when your phone will be out of batteries and your mind will go blank. Last summer my confessor of 40 years experience suddenly had a mind blink on the formula of absolution during my confession and immediately got a card out of his pocket with it on.]

Vistaprint's cheap/free (there are various offers) business cards would be ideal, and you can print on both sides. People use them for all sorts of things - my housemate is using them for her wedding's save the dates.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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leo
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Vistaprint do everything from classy to tacky depending on which of their off-the-shelf designs you use.

But beware - you will get daily promotional emails form them until you beg them to stop.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Does anyone have any ideas?

Failing a better idea, is the price so prohibitive that you can't just have the lot of 250 printed up? You can easily Johnny-Appleseed them about over the next decade or three.
This is actually what I ended up doing, via vistaprint. Just $15 to print up 250 of them, then I'll just take a few to a local printer to get laminated. Thanks all!

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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

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Pancho
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Its too late now but The Printery House at Conception Abbey in Missouri has a custom printing service.

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Olaf
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A Prayer Book for Australia--quick questions

What's the deal with the Prayer of the Week? Is there a special place appointed to use it? (I haven't stumbled across anywhere, but I could be missing something.) What is the history behind it?

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Gee D
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The Collect for the Day is chanted or said immediately after the Gloria/Trisagion and before the OT Reading. Is that what you were after?

[ 26. March 2014, 07:13: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Gee D
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Olaf, I assume you were referring to the Second Order, which is the one in almost universal use outside much of Sydney, where AAPB is the most common. You may have noticed that the Agnus Dei does not appear there either. From memory, it is in the Additional Prayers approved for use and again almost universally is sung between the Fraction and the Invitation.

At St Peter's Hornsby, about 5 km form here, there is an interesting pattern. The Second Order is used on Sundays 1, 3 and 5 of any month; the First Order on Sunday 2; and Third Order on Sunday 4.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
A Prayer Book for Australia--quick questions

What's the deal with the Prayer of the Week? Is there a special place appointed to use it? (I haven't stumbled across anywhere, but I could be missing something.) What is the history behind it?

Re- its history, it was the prayer of gathering (ad collectam) in the early church. In times of persecution, it was dangerous for everyone to arrive at the same time to a secret location - you didn't want to arouse suspicion and arrest. So people arrived at staggered times so the congregation prayed informally until the last arrival, at which point the bishop prayed the collect as the first formal part of the liturgy.
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Dubious Thomas
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
A Prayer Book for Australia--quick questions

What's the deal with the Prayer of the Week? Is there a special place appointed to use it? (I haven't stumbled across anywhere, but I could be missing something.) What is the history behind it?

Re- its history, it was the prayer of gathering (ad collectam) in the early church. In times of persecution, it was dangerous for everyone to arrive at the same time to a secret location - you didn't want to arouse suspicion and arrest. So people arrived at staggered times so the congregation prayed informally until the last arrival, at which point the bishop prayed the collect as the first formal part of the liturgy.
Am I understand this correctly ... that the Australian Prayer Book doesn't use the term "collect," but rather "Prayer of the Week" instead?

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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6

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Gee D
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My recollection is no - it's one of those things that you see all the time and therefore take no special note of - but I don't have my prayer book here at work. I'll check this evening.

[ 26. March 2014, 19:38: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Oh, my goodness! Thank you for the replies, but do give me a little credit. [Razz]

If anybody has A Prayer Book for Australia (ca. 1990s) handy, find the section that contains the propers for Sundays and festivals.

It will look something like this:

Fourth Sunday in Lent

Prayer of the Week (typical collect-pattern prayer)

Year A:
Sentence
Prayer of the Day (typical collect-pattern prayer)
Reading Citations

Year B:
Sentence
Prayer of the Day (typical collect-pattern prayer)
Reading Citations

Year C:
Sentence
Prayer of the Day (typical collect-pattern prayer)
Reading Citations

Fifth Sunday in Lent
etc.

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The Prayer of the Week is the oddball with the odd name. The Prayers of the Day are clearly aligned to be used in the normal "Collect" part of the liturgy--that is, after the Gloria or Trisagion and before the First Reading. So what was the intended role of the Prayer of the Week?

It is a change from the Australian Prayer Book (ca. late 1970s), which did not provide such a prayer.

And note to Dubious Thomas: the Australian Prayer Book from the 1970s does indeed use the term "Collect," for exactly what one would expect. However, I refer to a newer version from the 1990s, which has an unfortunately quite similar name, A Prayer Book for Australia. The resources have similarities, but are definitely not the same. The more recent version does not remove the term "Collect" entirely (it appears for instance in the rubrics), but does seem to shy away from it.

[ 26. March 2014, 21:28: Message edited by: Olaf ]

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
The Prayer of the Week is the oddball with the odd name. The Prayers of the Day are clearly aligned to be used in the normal "Collect" part of the liturgy--that is, after the Gloria or Trisagion and before the First Reading. So what was the intended role of the Prayer of the Week?

It is a change from the Australian Prayer Book (ca. late 1970s), which did not provide such a prayer.

Did the latter book provide a prayer for each set of readings? There's an impulse you find sometimes to make the collect tie in with the readings of the day. This requires a three-yearly cycle of collects, for Years A, B and C as you see.

Some people, however, dislike this multiplication of collects, and prefer to use the same one each year for any given Sunday.

It's a guess on my part, but perhaps the Australian prayer book allows both options?

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Gee D
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I think I should let someone like Zappa or Emli answer the technical questions in the last couple of posts. As to prayer books:

The permitted books in Australia are three. The oldest, of course, is the Book of Common Prayer, 1662. An Australian Prayer Book (AAPB) was introduced in 1978. As a great simplification, much of this is the 1662 book in modern language. There is then A Prayer Book for Australia (APBA) of 1995. It is the Second Order Communion of this which is used almost universally outside Sydney, where AAPB is that commonly used. APBA takes account of the great liturgical changes and different theological emphases from the sixties onwards. APBA is lawful in Sydney, but it may only be used by permission of the Archbishop on a parish-by-parish basis. There would probably be about 35 to 40 parishes using APBA on a regular basis. I am aware of instances where permission has been refused. No reason need be given.

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Offeiriad

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:

Re- its history, it was the prayer of gathering (ad collectam) in the early church. In times of persecution, it was dangerous for everyone to arrive at the same time to a secret location - you didn't want to arouse suspicion and arrest. So people arrived at staggered times so the congregation prayed informally until the last arrival, at which point the bishop prayed the collect as the first formal part of the liturgy.

Leo, on what do you found this marvellous purple prose (I mean that sincerely - a great teaching point!)? I don't suppose you could point me to a book where you found it, could you please? Thanks!

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Gee D
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This link will get you the full text of AAPB:

AAPB

I can't get an on-line full text of APBA.

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venbede
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The 1960s RC missal called the collect the "opening prayer". In the office it was called the "concluding prayer". (They were not necessarily the same text on green weekdays.)

I notice the new 2000s RC translation has reverted to the word "collect", given its preference for Latinate language ("he took the chalice").

I still haven't a clue what the Prayer of the Week is - do you still use the prayer for Advent 4 after Christmas, Easter 6 after Ascension and Sunday before Lent after Ash Wednesday? When is it used? At the office rather than mass?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

Re- its history, it was the prayer of gathering (ad collectam) in the early church. In times of persecution, it was dangerous for everyone to arrive at the same time to a secret location - you didn't want to arouse suspicion and arrest. So people arrived at staggered times so the congregation prayed informally until the last arrival, at which point the bishop prayed the collect as the first formal part of the liturgy.

Leo, on what do you found this marvellous purple prose (I mean that sincerely - a great teaching point!)? I don't suppose you could point me to a book where you found it, could you please? Thanks!

I'm really not sure - it might be 'The Altar Fire' by olive Wyon or 'Liturgy Coming to Life' which was published by, i think, the BBC. More likely, Eric Lamburn's 'Behind Rite and Ceremony' (pp. 45-6 - give similar information from the later period of station masses).

Then again, it might have been way back when i was prepared for confirmation.

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Offeiriad

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OK Leo, thank you. I've got Lamburn, so I'll start there.
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BroJames
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The two standard possibilities which I was taught and have generally seen are that the collect either gets its name because it was the prayer which marked the moment when the people were assembled (collected together) for the beginning of worship (similar to Leo's suggestion); or that it was the prayer which followed the silent or out loud prayers of the people, introduced by oremus (let us pray), and which collected those prayers together.

[ 27. March 2014, 22:21: Message edited by: BroJames ]

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