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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Emendator Liturgia
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I think I should let someone like Zappa or Emli answer the technical questions in the last couple of posts.

Thanks Gee D for dropping me in it so nicely!

In APBA the collects (that is, prayers of the collected or gathered community) are as set out as a prayer of the week (or, in Advent and Lent, of the season) and as three prayers of the day. The prayers of the week are chosen to fit the cycle of the Revised Common Lectionary, whereas the prayer of the week is, as you will see, much more general in content.

According to one of the members of the Liturgical Commission of General Synod, these prayers were intended for use by those who do not make use of the RCL in their services. This isn't very clearly and obviously explained: I had to get the said member to give the explanation and where it was to be found in the 850 pages of APBA.

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I think I should let someone like Zappa or Emli answer the technical questions in the last couple of posts.

Thanks Gee D for dropping me in it so nicely!

In APBA the collects (that is, prayers of the collected or gathered community) are as set out as a prayer of the week (or, in Advent and Lent, of the season) and as three prayers of the day. The prayers of the week are chosen to fit the cycle of the Revised Common Lectionary, whereas the prayer of the week is, as you will see, much more general in content.

According to one of the members of the Liturgical Commission of General Synod, these prayers were intended for use by those who do not make use of the RCL in their services. This isn't very clearly and obviously explained: I had to get the said member to give the explanation and where it was to be found in the 850 pages of APBA.

Ah, that makes sense, and is actually very gracious. Even in the liturgical loosey-gooseyness of Lutheranism, our books assume that one will use the appointed lectionary (in my denom's case, the RCL). The expectation seems to be that if one doesn't use the RCL, one is just making everything up anyway, so why bother providing resources at all?

I do see similarities between APBA and the New Zealand Prayer Book, particularly in the offices.

Thank you for the info. I apologize for holding up the Sundry questions thread.

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Mamacita

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Forgiven me for asking something I've seen discussed here at length, but do I recall correctly that in TEC Palm Sunday and Passion Sunday used to be separate? Was it always so? Can someone fill me in on how and when Passion Sunday was observed? And did the change happen with the 79BCP?

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Mamacita

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PS: Not that y'all aren't experts in your own rights, but citing sources would be much appreciated!

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Ceremoniar
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In the RCC and TEC the last two weeks of Lent were traditionally called Passiontide, and thus the 5th Sunday of Lent was called Passion Sunday in both the Roman Missal and the 1928 BCP. In the Extraordinary Form of the RCC, Passiontide continues to be observed. This is when crosses, statues, icons and sacred images are veiled. In the Holy Week reforms of Ven. Pius XII in 1955, Passion Sunday was renamed the 1st Passion Sunday, and Palm Sunday the 2nd Passion Sunday, to further emphasize the nature of Passiontide, and the fact that the Passion was sung or read on Palm Sunday.

The 1970 Roman Missal eliminated the sub-season of Passsiontide, preferring to limit the passion theme to Palm Sunday (though permission to continue to veil on the 5th Sunday in Lent was given). Palm Sunday was thus officially rendered in Latin as Passion Sunday of the Palms, which in English was translated as Passion Sunday, also known as Palm Sunday.

The 1979 BCP, when it was released in 1976 as the final trial use edition, called the day Sunday of the Passion: Palm Sunday.

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Mamacita

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Thank you, Ceremoniar. I will pass along your answer to my colleague.

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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*Leon*
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A quick question that I'm sure must have been asked before:

The Palm Sunday service in 'Times and Seasons' (CofE) doesn't seem to have a confession in it. Is this correct? Why? If you disagree with the answer to 'why?', where's the best place to add it?

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Ceremoniar
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I am guessing that it is following the precept that a procession or other proper rite at the start of the liturgy takes the place of a penitential rite. This notion began with the RC Holy Week reforms of the 1950s, when the prayers at the foot of the altar began to be dropped when the liturgy of the palms was celebrated. Within a couple of years, this was extended to Candlemas, too, and later, to other such occasions. This practice is frequently the case in the American 1979 BCP, too. IMHO, if this makes any sense at all (not sure that it does), it does so only if the penitential rite is normally at the beginning of the liturgy, and is the rite displaced by the procession or whatever. If the confession normally comes later in the liturgy, it difficult to justify its omission, IMHO.
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leo
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But I'd hate to move the penitential rite to the post intercessions position. i have seen it done and don't like it.

Can't we trust people to go through their own preparation and also to experience penitence as the liturgy works itself out - moving from the triumphal entry to the Passion, as if to say to oneself,'Well i welcomed him into my heart when all; was going well but then i dumped him when the going got tough.'

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Gee D
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I probably have misunderstood just what you mean by the penitential rite, but assume that it means the general confession. We use APBA 2nd order, which has provision for the general confession at 2 places. The one we commonly use is near the beginning, just before absolution and the Gloria. During Advent and Lent, it moves to the alternative position just after Humble Access and before the Peace.

We had our ecumenical procession this morning, combined with the local RC and Uniting Churches. Although there is a short service to commence the procession, it is obviously inappropriate to have general confession in that.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Olaf
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Well, it could be worse. We gathered outside the sanctuary, and then had the confession and absolution followed by the procession, carrying palms with no explanation, no blessing, no processional gospel.

Yet again, #LutheranFail

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Gee D
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Before the procession, we had the Processional Gospel, Blessing of the Palms and some general prayers. Given that it is an ecumenical procession, confession and absolution might be a bit awkward for some.

The gathering before the procession is outdoors - too large for any of the churches - then we walked singing All Glory Laud and Honour[./I] I don't know about the RCs or Unitings, but the processional hymn in church afterwards was as usual [I]Ride On, Ride On in Majesty sung at full volume.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Evensong
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Attention Catholics

I ( an Anglican ) have in my charge (pastorally) a young South American woman house-sitting for a family whose father died (an unpleasant death) recently.

She is terrified of being visited by his ghost.

Do any of you good Catholic brethren have any prayers off the top of your head that I might offer her in this situation?

Obviously there are plenty of Anglican ones that would do in a roundabout way but.....just wondered if youse had anything specific that don't sound as awful as some of the ones I've found via Google.

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The Silent Acolyte

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Might one of the guardian angel prayers be helpful?

This, for example, might be a little too fulsome, but you get the idea:
quote:
O most holy angel of God, appointed by God to be my guardian, I give you thanks for all the benefits which you have ever bestowed on me in body and in soul. I praise and glorify you that you condescended to assist me with such patient fidelity, and to defend me against all the assaults of my enemies. Blessed be the hour in which you were assigned me for my guardian, my defender and my patron. In acknowledgement and return for all your loving ministries to me, I offer you the infinitely precious and noble heart of Jesus, and firmly purpose to obey you henceforward, and most faithfully to serve my God. Amen.


[ 14. April 2014, 11:38: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

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Gee D
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Or a prayer that Michael the Archangel, the warrior who was the first to wound Lucifer, and who leads God's army to stand guard over her and to fight on her behalf.

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Ceremoniar
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St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

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Bishops Finger
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Wow, Ceremoniar! That prayer is certainly short, and to the point. From whence does it come?

Re Palm Sunday - if you use the intercessions from Times and Seasons, they are quite penitential in tone. We had them yesterday, and IMHO they fitted in very well with the liturgy on the whole, and with my fellow-Reader's brief and pertinent homily in particular. Don't you just love it when a plan comes together?

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Adam.

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In addition to what's already been suggested, it might also help her to have a Mass offered for the deceased. She could also invite a priest round for a house blessing.

You might also suggest a Memorare to St. Joseph:

Remember, O most pure spouse of the Virgin Mary, my beloved Patron, that never it has been heard that anyone invoked your patronage and sought your aid without being comforted. Inspired by this confidence I come to you and fervently commend myself to you. Despise not my petition, O dearest foster father of our Redeemer, but accept it graciously.
Amen.

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Autenrieth Road

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Is there a way to achieve the delightful scent of church incense in one's house?

I was at a different church yesterday and they had incense. I cried, I miss incense so much at my home church, which doesn't do it any more. (Perks up suddenly: maybe New Rector will permit incense! Note to self: ask New Rector.)

It occurred to me that it might be possible to acquire and burn church incense at home. I don't want a charcoal brazier though, so maybe it would have to be some other arrangement. Do they make incense sticks with the right aroma? Or some other way of burning incense?

Is there something spiritually I could do to be sure I'm respecting the church association of the incense scent? I think I'd want to set up a prayer corner for it, and burn it in connection with some sort of devotion.

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Wow, Ceremoniar! That prayer is certainly short, and to the point. From whence does it come?

Ian J.

The prayer was said at the end of low mass prior to the reforms on the4 60s.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Is there a way to achieve the delightful scent of church incense in one's house?


Buy a thurible.

If you have a lamp with the lamp bulb pointing upwards, you can put a few grains on it to melt.

It messes up the bulb and I don't know if these new low energy bulbs put out enough heat, but I pass the information on without responsibility for the results.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
It occurred to me that it might be possible to acquire and burn church incense at home. I don't want a charcoal brazier though, so maybe it would have to be some other arrangement. Do they make incense sticks with the right aroma? Or some other way of burning incense?

To me, the right aroma is natural (or "pure") frankincense, without any added smellies. It's been a while, but I've sometimes burned some on quick-lite church charcoals in a brass bowl filled with sand. Never left unattended, of course. Charcoals lighted outside or near window; incense put on when coals are no longer smoking and are covered with white ash. Incense sticks or cones may be available in just plain frankincense scent. I haven't used those types, though.
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Curiosity killed ...

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If you want the smell of frankincense at home you can do it with ceramic holders for candles and frankincense essential oil

eta - I forgot - you can get frankincense joss sticks, or frankincense and myrrh.

[ 14. April 2014, 14:52: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

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Jengie jon

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You can even buy the resin and use a incense burner. I investigated a while ago and decided to stick with essential oil.

Jengie

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Ceremoniar
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The prayer to St. Michael is associated with Pope Leo XIII, who as been indicated here, in 1886 or so ordered the prayer to be said after all Low Masses. Its intention varied with the point in history, but it has both general and specific applications. Since 1965 it is no longer required to be said after Mass, though some places continue to do so, including the daily Mass on the cable channel EWTN. It is also frequently recited at the end of a rosary.

[ 14. April 2014, 16:25: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:


Is there something spiritually I could do to be sure I'm respecting the church association of the incense scent? I think I'd want to set up a prayer corner for it, and burn it in connection with some sort of devotion.

Normally, we burn incense liturgically to cense something. Given you're unlikely to have the Blessed Sacrament in your house, and censing yourself seems a little odd, you might cense an icon, a crucifix, some holy water, or a Bible.

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venbede
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I burn incense before the evening office on feasts and Sundays and their vigils, and sing the verses from Psalm 141 - "Let my prayer rise before you as incense" - which is suggested in the C of E Common Worship Daily Prayer.

[ 14. April 2014, 19:27: Message edited by: venbede ]

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Galilit
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Is there a Diocesan Exorcist?
(Simply that an old friend of mine had that job/title after learning a lot in Zimbabwe)

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Chorister

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Yes, but many dioceses keep quiet about it unless they decide someone really needs to see them. It can sound quite dramatic, but apparently they deal a lot with fear, for example saying prayers about scary situations to put people's minds at rest. The dramatic stuff you read about in novels or see on films almost never happens. Most people in those roles are not listed on diocesan websites, unless it is under the general title 'Ministry of Deliverance', but here is a link to the relevant information page of Newcastle Diocese so you can read the sort of thing that is said, for yourself. Googling 'Deliverance Ministry' plus name of Diocese should give more examples.

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Augustine the Aleut
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Chorister writes:
quote:
Yes, but many dioceses keep quiet about it unless they decide someone really needs to see them. It can sound quite dramatic, but apparently they deal a lot with fear, for example saying prayers about scary situations to put people's minds at res
Ditto in the Anglican Church of Canada. Owing to a suicide in the wake of an exorcism in Toronto in the 1960s, the House of Bishops laid out some very firm guidelines. One of my clerical acquaintances notes that he could do pretty well anything discreetly and get away with it, but if he held an unauthorized exorcism, he would be hammered very badly by the bishop and could say goodbye to his clerical status.
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Autenrieth Road

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Thank you to venbede, Oblatus, Curiosity killed ..., Jengie Jon and Hart for all your suggestions about incense. I'll examine the options and report back for what I ultimately do. I'm very excited!

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Truth

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Barefoot Friar

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I have read somewhere about priests who take a Holy Week service while barefoot. Now I cannot find it. Does anyone know anything about that? Was it the Maundy Thursday service?

Google is being unhelpful, so I thought maybe one of you would know!

[ 15. April 2014, 19:15: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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Fr Weber
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It's a tradition in some churches for the Cross to be venerated on Good Friday after removing one's shoes. But I've never heard of an entire service barefoot--even the discalced orders wear sandals!

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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venbede
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I remember Father Ken Leech taking off his shoes to venerate the cross on Good Friday.

And checking on a pre-Vatican 2 missal on line I find the following rubric:

And afterward the Cross is carried by the Priest alone to the place made ready for it before the Holy Table, and, kneeling there, he sets it in place: next he lays aside his shoes, and approaches to venerate the Cross, thrice making a double genuflection before he kisses it. Which done, he returns and takes again his shoes and the Chasuble.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Ceremoniar
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
And checking on a pre-Vatican 2 missal on line I find the following rubric:

And afterward the Cross is carried by the Priest alone to the place made ready for it before the Holy Table, and, kneeling there, he sets it in place: next he lays aside his shoes, and approaches to venerate the Cross, thrice making a double genuflection before he kisses it. Which done, he returns and takes again his shoes and the Chasuble.

I am curious as to which missal this was taken from? I know that it is pre-1955, as the chasuable is not worn on Good Friday in the 1962 missal, used in parishes such as mine who who use the Extraordinary Form. The other clergy and servers do likewise, and some of the laity.
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Triple Tiara

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The rubrics of the modern Roman Rite still require the priest to remove his shoes for the Veneration of the Cross "if appropriate".

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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crunt
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Is there a way to achieve the delightful scent of church incense in one's house?


Aurobindo Ashram incense sticks are good quality and the frankincense is superb.

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QUIZ: Bible
QUIZ: world religions
LTL Discussion
languagespider.com

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Evensong
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Thanks all for your recommendations on prayers for my South American friend.

I realised I have The Glenstal Book of Prayer (Benedictine) tucked away in my bookshelf ( I used to use it ) and it contains lots of the prayers mentioned above as well as St Patrick's breastplate so I'm going to give that to her today. [Angel]

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a theological scrapbook

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
It's a tradition in some churches for the Cross to be venerated on Good Friday after removing one's shoes. But I've never heard of an entire service barefoot--even the discalced orders wear sandals!

CR Mirfield did the whole liturgy barefoot last time i was there.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
I have read somewhere about priests who take a Holy Week service while barefoot. Now I cannot find it. Does anyone know anything about that? Was it the Maundy Thursday service?

Google is being unhelpful, so I thought maybe one of you would know!

I know of one local parish that does that for Good Friday. Not mine, though.

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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

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Autenrieth Road

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crunt, thanks for the suggestion. I note on the linked page that it calls them "Frank Incense Sticks." Just what I need, when I go to light one up it will talk back to me: "Why yes, that dress does make your butt look big." [Biased]

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Truth

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Pancho
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# 13533

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Attention Catholics

I ( an Anglican ) have in my charge (pastorally) a young South American woman house-sitting for a family whose father died (an unpleasant death) recently.

She is terrified of being visited by his ghost.

Do any of you good Catholic brethren have any prayers off the top of your head that I might offer her in this situation?

Any prayers invoking the Holy Name of Jesus and the Holy Name of Mary would help. My mom says that people in the ancestral village would say "Ave María Purísima" (Hail Mary Most Pure) before entering an empty or abandoned house to ward off evil spirits. She also says the Magnificat is a powerful prayer.

Definitely any prayers for the dead and the souls in Purgatory would be helpful. There's a collection of these in Spanish right here. I second Ceremoniar's and Hart's suggestions especially having a priest bless the house. A Spanish version of Ceremoniar's Prayer to St. Michael is is here at the top. I'd also suggest a prayer to her Guardian Angel like this one:

quote:
Ángel de Guarda, dulce compañía,
no me desampares ni de noche ni de día.
No me dejes solo que me perdería.
Ni vivir, ni morir en pecado mortal.
Jesús en la vida,
Jesús en la muerte,
Jesús para siempre.

Amén Jesús.

Translation:
Guadian Angel, sweet company,
do not forsake me, not by night nor by day,
do not leave me alone for I would be lost.
Not to live nor to die in mortal sin.
Jesus in life.
Jesus in death.
Jesus forever.
Amen, Jesus.


[ 16. April 2014, 20:55: Message edited by: Pancho ]

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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cosmic dance
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# 14025

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Our Bishop is barefoot for nearly every service I have ever seen him take. No prizes for guessing where I come from.

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"No method, no teacher, no guru..." Van Morrison.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
It's a tradition in some churches for the Cross to be venerated on Good Friday after removing one's shoes. But I've never heard of an entire service barefoot--even the discalced orders wear sandals!

CR Mirfield did the whole liturgy barefoot last time i was there.
Bloody hippies. [Biased]

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Mama Thomas
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When I was in Melanesia, the only service I ever wore footwear (doc martin boots) was at my ordination to the priesthood. I only did that as a nod to my culture. Every other service, whether Mass or Office or anything else I was barefoot and so were just about everybody else. Many churches had rules against wearing shoes inside and sand is very hard to sweep up!

I do miss the Maundy Thursdays when I'd strip to the waist and wash peoples' feet with a bar of soap and a scrub brush and piles of real towels. Miss it so!

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All hearts are open, all desires known

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Fr Weber
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Cultural norms being what they are, that doesn't surprise me, MamaThomas. Or bother me, really, even in the case of the CR. But that never would have happened if Fr Raynes were still alive. [Biased]

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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The Silent Acolyte

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The Angelus on Good Friday and Holy Saturday: Ring-a da bell? Or, not?
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Zach82
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The Angelus on Good Friday and Holy Saturday: Ring-a da bell? Or, not?

Nay. Use one of them wooden-clapper-dodgers.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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The Silent Acolyte

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Crotalus.

But, they can only be heard in the church and the Angelus bell can be heard throughout the parish.

Do we not recite the Angelus at six, noon, and six on Good Friday, Holy Saturday, or other days of the year?

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GCabot
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1. During Holy Communion, as you wait for your pew row to have its turn, what do you do?

Ideally I would want to stay kneeling since the Blessed Sacrament is exposed, but this would create some logistical hazards, which is why I believe most people stay seated, then kneel after communion. My current compromise is I keep my head bowed as I'm seated and waiting.


2. Do you bow your head every time you pass the processional cross or only when the cross is actually in procession?

Similarly, do you bow your head whenever you pass any altar where the Blessed Sacrament is not present, including every side chapel altar, or just the main central one?


3. Generally, one genuflects at the Adoramus te, Christe while making the Stations of the Cross. I realized this evening, however, that our Good Friday liturgy has the Adoramus te, Christe as an antiphon. Should one technically genuflect or make some other gesture of respect in this context?

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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."

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