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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
1. During Holy Communion, as you wait for your pew row to have its turn, what do you do?
Ideally I would want to stay kneeling since the Blessed Sacrament is exposed, but this would create some logistical hazards, which is why I believe most people stay seated, then kneel after communion. My current compromise is I keep my head bowed as I'm seated and waiting.
Not sure what logistical hazards this creates... I generally kneel from the Sanctus until after the post-communion prayer and I have never found a logistical issue other than the need to kick the hassock under the pew as you get up.
quote:
2. Do you bow your head every time you pass the processional cross or only when the cross is actually in procession?
Only in procession, but I've never seen a church where the processional cross is in a thoroughfare.
quote:
Similarly, do you bow your head whenever you pass any altar where the Blessed Sacrament is not present, including every side chapel altar, or just the main central one?
The main one, unless mass is being celebrated at the time.
quote:
3. Generally, one genuflects at the Adoramus te, Christe while making the Stations of the Cross. I realized this evening, however, that our Good Friday liturgy has the Adoramus te, Christe as an antiphon. Should one technically genuflect or make some other gesture of respect in this context?
I'm not sure whether there is a correct way here, but I would be wary of adding too much activity into the Good Friday liturgy. Genuflecting during the Passion Narrative and to the Crucifix seems to me sufficient.
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
1. During Holy Communion, as you wait for your pew row to have its turn, what do you do?
Ideally I would want to stay kneeling since the Blessed Sacrament is exposed, but this would create some logistical hazards, which is why I believe most people stay seated, then kneel after communion. My current compromise is I keep my head bowed as I'm seated and waiting.
Not sure what logistical hazards this creates... I generally kneel from the Sanctus until after the post-communion prayer and I have never found a logistical issue other than the need to kick the hassock under the pew as you get up.
If everyone were to remain kneeling, it would require everyone go through the extra step of pushing their kneelers out of the way, lest they became a physical obstacle. Given that this is a large parish and everyone kneels to receive communion, which is given in both kinds, this would significantly lengthen a mass that is already often two hours long or more. There is also the issue where the wooden feet of the freestanding kneelers combined with the wooden floor and the acoustics of the nave would create substantial and continuous aural pollution throughout communion, which would be quite disruptive to the requisite solemnity of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ and subsequent post-communion private prayer.
quote:
2. Do you bow your head every time you pass the processional cross or only when the cross is actually in procession?
Only in procession, but I've never seen a church where the processional cross is in a thoroughfare.
At my parish, the processional cross is placed on the border between the chancel and the nave near the middle of the church during the mass. Thus, one could possibly pass it multiple times while approaching and departing from the altar rails, depending on one’s exact location in the pews.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Crotalus.
But, they can only be heard in the church and the Angelus bell can be heard throughout the parish.
Do we not recite the Angelus at six, noon, and six on Good Friday, Holy Saturday, or other days of the year?
I dunno, but my basis for saying no bell ringing isn't as sound as all that. I read that French children explain the lack of bells on Holy Saturday with the story that they all fly to Rome on Maundy Thursday evening to be blessed by the pope, and they come back for Easter bearing gifts for good children.
Edit: Evidence.
[ 19. April 2014, 12:39: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Two queries from the last few days of the thread:-
All these questions about obtaining incense burners - agreed, using actual incense and charcoal is a bit complicated, but round here, essential oils in little bottles and the little ceramic things to burn them on are almost universally available from somewhere. So are joss sticks. Apart from hippies, even quite a lot of ordinary people use the oils and little ceramic things to get rid of cooking smells. Isn't this so everywhere? Or is this peculiar to where I live?
On venerating the cross on Good Friday, does that mean that in the RCC, only the priest does that on their behalf, and the congregation don't get the chance to do so? These days, it's not that unusual in the CofE even among the GLEs, but if it happens, it's assumed anyone who wants to has the opportunity to do so.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
On venerating the cross on Good Friday, does that mean that in the RCC, only the priest does that on their behalf, and the congregation don't get the chance to do so? These days, it's not that unusual in the CofE even among the GLEs, but if it happens, it's assumed anyone who wants to has the opportunity to do so.
Veneration of the Cross by all who wish to do so has been a major feature of the Good Friday liturgy for as long as I can remember in the RC Church. I remember kissing the Feet and then a white cloth appears immediately, held by an acolyte who wipes the Feet.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
On venerating the cross on Good Friday, does that mean that in the RCC, only the priest does that on their behalf, and the congregation don't get the chance to do so? These days, it's not that unusual in the CofE even among the GLEs, but if it happens, it's assumed anyone who wants to has the opportunity to do so.
Veneration of the Cross by all who wish to do so has been a major feature of the Good Friday liturgy for as long as I can remember in the RC Church. I remember kissing the Feet and then a white cloth appears immediately, held by an acolyte who wipes the Feet.
Yup, it's a huge deal.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
After our Anglican"meditative service yesterday I popped round the corner to catch the end of the RC service.
Great big queues, hundreds of people, lining up to kiss the feet of some crucifixes.
By comparison Communion (from previously sanctified wafes) was a low-key affair. Basically the priest led us in the Lord's Prayer, said another short prayer, then the "I am not worthy but only say the word..." prayer, and then straight to distribution. Didn't take three minutes. No genuflections, elaborate actions, incense, bells, anything. The Baptists would have done it with more ritual.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In our parish church we have a large crucifix which is a central feature of the Good Friday service ,as several hundred people will come to venerate it, forming one line.For me personally it is one of the most moving liturgies of the year.
By contrast at Communion there will be two lines.But it is wrong of Ken to indicate that this is no big deal.The Good Friday celebration is deliberately kept 'low key' that the significance of the Passion reading,the Solemn Prayers for all Mankind and the Veneration of the Cross may make a deep impression upon the faithful as well as any visitors.
As the Blessed Sacrament is brought from the Altar of Repose the faithful,having listened to the words of the prophet Isaiah foretelling the sufferings which they heard about in the Passion are 'now about to join together sacramentally in Holy Communion with the One who died on the Cross for us all'.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
...Communion (from previously sanctified wafes) was a low-key affair. Basically the priest led us in the Lord's Prayer, said another short prayer, then the "I am not worthy but only say the word..." prayer, and then straight to distribution. Didn't take three minutes. No genuflections, elaborate actions, incense, bells, anything. The Baptists would have done it with more ritual.
The Baptists haven't been doing up communion for every other service of the year with great pomp and circumstance. Their ministers aren't wearing black vestments. They don't have an exposed ten-ton solid block of stone for an altar. They don't have a stonking big reredos stood behind the altar, veiled with black sailcloth. The area from which the communion is distributed isn't stripped bare of everything that isn't nailed down; and, the Roman Catholics and the Anglocatholics have a lot of not-nailed-down stuff. The sound of the Baptists' mighty organ isn't silenced and replaced with the unaccompanied voice of a vested choir.
Less ritual than the Baptists isn't quite accurate, but it does rather make the point: He is dead.
The silent echo of the emptied out heaven is the sound of the rocks themselves.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Crotalus.
But, they can only be heard in the church and the Angelus bell can be heard throughout the parish.
Do we not recite the Angelus at six, noon, and six on Good Friday, Holy Saturday, or other days of the year?
My vote is for you to set your carillon to broadcast Aunt Fanny's best revivalist hymns during the Triduum.
That said, this appears noteworthy, with klepperer sounding a crotalus to indicate the appropriate devotional times.
Fortescue does not address the Angelus specifically. However, he does state that no bells are rung during that period between the Gloria at the Holy Thursday Mass and the Vigil, which would have occurred earlier on Saturday during his time. As he lists the other things that are removed during this time period (i.e. holy water and oil), it seems to become apparent that he refers to a wholesale omission of these. By extension, I conclude that the Angelus bell remains wholly silent as well.
The Catholic Encyclopedia at the New Advent website indicates that the bell is to be used when possible, but not essential, for the Angelus and its attached indulgence.
Give the bell a rest, then. Put Quasimodo to work scrubbing the altar.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
By comparison Communion (from previously sanctified wafes) was a low-key affair. Basically the priest led us in the Lord's Prayer, said another short prayer, then the "I am not worthy but only say the word..." prayer, and then straight to distribution. Didn't take three minutes. No genuflections, elaborate actions, incense, bells, anything. The Baptists would have done it with more ritual.
Most of those were probably omitted because they are part of the consecration, which does not occur since the gifts are pre-sanctified from Maundy Thursday.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Right I've got a question.....We had an Easter Vigil last night and it was very moving but what on earth does 'O happy fault! O necessary sin of Adam' mean? It sounds almost Calvinist?
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
By comparison Communion (from previously sanctified wafes) was a low-key affair. Basically the priest led us in the Lord's Prayer, said another short prayer, then the "I am not worthy but only say the word..." prayer, and then straight to distribution. Didn't take three minutes. No genuflections, elaborate actions, incense, bells, anything. The Baptists would have done it with more ritual.
Most of those were probably omitted because they are part of the consecration, which does not occur since the gifts are pre-sanctified from Maundy Thursday.
Indeed and the whole point is to keep things as low key as possible for Good Friday ( nod to the Silent Acolyte). It is Good Friday, so no celebration of the Eucharist but it also reminds us that we can only call that Friday 'Good' with reference to Easter.....I'm not saying we should anticipate Easter but rather the three services should be seen as a unity. We leave in silence on Maundy Thursday, enter and leave in silence on Good Friday and enter in silence on Holy Saturday,although I think these pratices seem to be honoured more in the breach than the observance!
I used to feel very unssettled with Holy Communion on Good Friday but now I'm beginning to see the point of it
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I have a question about the ritual, for example during reaffirmation of baptism vows, where the priest flicks some water over people a few yards away.
I have seen this done with a long handled spoon, with something that looks like a pastry brush, and with a bundle of twigs tied together. What does the choice of implement signify either about the occasion or the priest ?
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Dunno, but this morning Father used a large sprig of rosemary (from Madam Sacristan's garden), and the entire congregation was sprinkled liberally..... no mere flicks at Our Place!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I have a question about the ritual, for example during reaffirmation of baptism vows, where the priest flicks some water over people a few yards away.
I have seen this done with a long handled spoon, with something that looks like a pastry brush, and with a bundle of twigs tied together. What does the choice of implement signify either about the occasion or the priest ?
Possibly a reference to 'cleanse me with hyssop'?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Right I've got a question.....We had an Easter Vigil last night and it was very moving but what on earth does 'O happy fault! O necessary sin of Adam' mean? It sounds almost Calvinist?
Not sure if it helps, but I was doing my regular reading of this book in Holy Week and the author mentions this section of the hymn in a chapter that encourages us to see Christ's birth, death and resurrection as the beginning of all things,and not look at creation -> fall -> law -> salvation so much in a linear narrative but rather see "how these scriptures appear retrospectively in the light of Christ" and seem them all as part of the "proclamation of the crucified and risen Christ, the eternal plan or economy of God".
quote:
This transcendent, eternal or timeless, power of God enables us to see human sinfulness embraced within the whole scriptural economy of God, in a simultaneous movement of conviction and forgiveness, revealing our falleness -- that we have always stood in need of Christ, called into being by and for him -- and yet in the same movement offering us the means by which our brokeness may be healed. In this retrospective perspective, we can speak of the "Fall" as being blessed, the 'felix culpa' [from the Exsultet], and see the "curse" of Adam and Eve, as depicted in the San Marco mosaic, as a "blessing", with Christ making the sign of the cross over his repentant creatures.
p. 89
Ian,
who crossed the Thames and had a most joyous Easter Vigil complete with the Exsultet and one of the most welcoming congregation -- and birettas as well!
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I have a question about the ritual, for example during reaffirmation of baptism vows, where the priest flicks some water over people a few yards away.
I have seen this done with a long handled spoon, with something that looks like a pastry brush, and with a bundle of twigs tied together. What does the choice of implement signify either about the occasion or the priest ?
Possibly a reference to 'cleanse me with hyssop'?
Indeed, but it is usually simpler: the church hasn't spent money to buy the actual aspergillum, the device used to dispense appropriate amounts of water up the faithful of Western Christendom. Sometimes the church doesn't even know such a formal device exists. Sometimes the church finds them preciously Catholic and therefore to be avoided. Sometimes the church is looking for a more traditional way.
There are brush-style ones, and ones that have a bulb at the end in which water is absorbed for later dispensing by flinging it through the holes. I've found that locally-improvised ones tend to dispense far too much water.
The chief reason for improvising seems to be cost. If one is Anglican, for instance, and doesn't make use of Missal liturgies, then one probably only does the sprinkling rite at the Easter, and perhaps at a rare baptism here and there. Why spend the money for such infrequent use? Catholics have the option of using the sprinkling rite weekly in place of the confession, and although it is an option not used as often as it probably should, it does make sense to own the equipment, which can also be used for blessing any number of things.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
We normally use small cuttings from murraya or something similar - plenty of small branchlets and small leaves to pick up and flick water. The cost of buying a formal aspergillum is just not worth it, with fresh greenery available just a couple of steps from the vestry door throughout the year.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
The chief reason for improvising seems to be cost. If one is Anglican, for instance, and doesn't make use of Missal liturgies, then one probably only does the sprinkling rite at the Easter, and perhaps at a rare baptism here and there. Why spend the money for such infrequent use? Catholics have the option of using the sprinkling rite weekly in place of the confession, and although it is an option not used as often as it probably should, it does make sense to own the equipment, which can also be used for blessing any number of things.
This seems like an odd excuse. I easily found a proper aspergillum online new for $30 and I am sure one could be procured far cheaper second-hand. If one is going to bother with the ritual, at least do it properly, or you miss the whole point and render it hollow.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I am far from sure that using greenery is not doing it properly. In fact, the opposite.
[ 21. April 2014, 06:13: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
I agree: hyssop or something similar seems perfect.
I have a bulb-ended sprinkler (there is sponge inside the hollow bulb to hold the water). One Easter the church cleaners had polished this to a mighty shine: while aiming a splash the entire thing shot out of my hand, arching over the heads of the congregation to crash into the wall.
I, it, and they, never quite recovered.... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I wish I had been there.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Right I've got a question.....We had an Easter Vigil last night and it was very moving but what on earth does 'O happy fault! O necessary sin of Adam' mean? It sounds almost Calvinist?
Not sure if it helps, but I was doing my regular reading of this book in Holy Week and the author mentions this section of the hymn in a chapter that encourages us to see Christ's birth, death and resurrection as the beginning of all things,and not look at creation -> fall -> law -> salvation so much in a linear narrative but rather see "how these scriptures appear retrospectively in the light of Christ" and seem them all as part of the "proclamation of the crucified and risen Christ, the eternal plan or economy of God".
quote:
This transcendent, eternal or timeless, power of God enables us to see human sinfulness embraced within the whole scriptural economy of God, in a simultaneous movement of conviction and forgiveness, revealing our falleness -- that we have always stood in need of Christ, called into being by and for him -- and yet in the same movement offering us the means by which our brokeness may be healed. In this retrospective perspective, we can speak of the "Fall" as being blessed, the 'felix culpa' [from the Exsultet], and see the "curse" of Adam and Eve, as depicted in the San Marco mosaic, as a "blessing", with Christ making the sign of the cross over his repentant creatures.
p. 89
Ian,
who crossed the Thames and had a most joyous Easter Vigil complete with the Exsultet and one of the most welcoming congregation -- and birettas as well!
Thanks Ian. That makes it a bit clearer
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
I have a bulb-ended sprinkler (there is sponge inside the hollow bulb to hold the water). One Easter the church cleaners had polished this to a mighty shine: while aiming a splash the entire thing shot out of my hand, arching over the heads of the congregation to crash into the wall.
I, it, and they, never quite recovered....
Probably about 45 years ago, in our RC parish, the Benedictine monk priest who assisted our pastor went to asperge the choir (near the sanctuary), and that bulb flew off and hit a singer's metal chair. Sounded like a gunshot. Many ducked; a few screamed. Water followed the bulb and splatted across several singers' faces. Moment of shock, then boisterous laughter. Asperges could not be done with a straight face for years after that.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
All but the most central city churches have a yew tree: a sprig of yew is perfect for asperging...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
I agree: hyssop or something similar seems perfect.
I have a bulb-ended sprinkler (there is sponge inside the hollow bulb to hold the water). One Easter the church cleaners had polished this to a mighty shine: while aiming a splash the entire thing shot out of my hand, arching over the heads of the congregation to crash into the wall.
I, it, and they, never quite recovered....
And that's why they sell them with rings at the bottom- stick a finger through there and swing away to your heart's content.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Of course all that I recount happened long ago, before all was explained when I was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
The chief reason for improvising seems to be cost. If one is Anglican, for instance, and doesn't make use of Missal liturgies, then one probably only does the sprinkling rite at the Easter, and perhaps at a rare baptism here and there. Why spend the money for such infrequent use? Catholics have the option of using the sprinkling rite weekly in place of the confession, and although it is an option not used as often as it probably should, it does make sense to own the equipment, which can also be used for blessing any number of things.
This seems like an odd excuse. I easily found a proper aspergillum online new for $30 and I am sure one could be procured far cheaper second-hand. If one is going to bother with the ritual, at least do it properly, or you miss the whole point and render it hollow.
The branches are certainly an older practice, so I'm not sure I can call the newer devices more "proper," but I do like the newer devices better. I agree about money being an odd excuse...we got a very nice one for $50. Still, it's the number one excuse I have heard (this being a discussed topic since 2006 or so in my brand of Lutheranism, when we first saw sprinkling in our liturgical book.). Probably the weirdest excuse I ever heard was, "People feel bad when they don't get hit by the water." Seriously folks, grow up.
[ 21. April 2014, 20:02: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
All but the most central city churches have a yew tree: a sprig of yew is perfect for asperging...
Except that I don't recall ever seeing a yew tree in a churchyard here - perhaps in Victoria or Tasmania. OTOH, plenty of murrayas, and similar shrubs around.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
quote:
One Easter the church cleaners had polished this to a mighty shine: while aiming a splash the entire thing shot out of my hand, arching over the heads of the congregation to crash into the wall.
On a related tangent. I was singing in a choir in Sydney Town Hall, semi darkened. Conductor had a baton with a small light on the end so it could be seen in the dark. The baton flew out of his hand in one passage and sailed like a shooting star over the audience.
GeeD, following on your comment about yew being uncommon down here, many churches would have a rosemary bush for a sprig to be cut from.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
We use a handful of sprigs of box (less toxic than yew). The children gather round the font and get sprinkled from the whole bunch. They then get sprigs from the bunch to sprinkle the further reaches of the congregation with the cry "Remember your baptism".
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
I've known clergy who have access to an aspergilium but prefer to use fresh foliage because it feels less sterile - the idea being that the aspergilium is basically an artificial substitute for box, yew, palm, etc, and if you have a boxwood bush out in the churchyard, why not just send someone out to collect a branch or two?
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Yes. A bunch of herbs seems like the "Real Thing" and the aspergillium a bit of a substitute.
Why not grow your own hyssop? Not difficult I think.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Yes, you can get hyssop seeds quite easily, online at least. It's a member of the mint family and I think catnip/catmint would probably be the closest thing to it that's widely grown.
At my church, however, a sprig of conifer (not yew though) is used.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
What do you all use for sprinkling coffins?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
We use a handful of sprigs of box (less toxic than yew). The children gather round the font and get sprinkled from the whole bunch. They then get sprigs from the bunch to sprinkle the further reaches of the congregation with the cry "Remember your baptism".
I like this.
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Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What do you all use for sprinkling coffins?
Again, greenery cut from the church gardens. As Ken says, it feels more real than metal ever could.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
I'm having a little trouble understanding this apparent disdain for artificial aspegilliums. If only box or yew are good for aspersing, what do y'all use for the aspersorium? Must you hollow out a tree limb to use as the bucket? Do you weave a tight reed basket or tan an animal skin to hold the water? Or, are modern materials such as brass or glass acceptable for the vessel containing the water to be flung out with the all-natural aspergillium?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
<snip>what do y'all use for the aspersorium?<snip>
Since where I am we only do this on Easter Day at the renewal of vows, the font has alway sufficed.
I guess if it was a regular feature of our worship (i.e. more than, say, half a dozen times a year) we might feel the need to invest in something, but I would have thought any decent and convenient container would do. The prices of vessels sold as being specifically for this purpose seem to range from about £75 to an eye-watering £390 (US$125-652).
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
We use brass bowls, which can hold the water. Brass is not all that modern AIUI in any event. And we use neither yew nor box. Murraya has leaves roughly the same size and shape as box, and we happen to have some growing in the church garden.
Nothing wrong with the use of metal, precious or otherwise, just a personal preference for the leaves.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
<snip>what do y'all use for the aspersorium?<snip>
Since where I am we only do this on Easter Day at the renewal of vows, the font has alway sufficed.
I guess if it was a regular feature of our worship (i.e. more than, say, half a dozen times a year) we might feel the need to invest in something, but I would have thought any decent and convenient container would do. The prices of vessels sold as being specifically for this purpose seem to range from about £75 to an eye-watering £390 (US$125-652).
Low-end aspergillums are not that expensive. What does the priest use when he is blessing something outside the church, and thus is away from the font?
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Yes, you can get hyssop seeds quite easily, online at least. It's a member of the mint family and I think catnip/catmint would probably be the closest thing to it that's widely grown.
At my church, however, a sprig of conifer (not yew though) is used.
But watch out when growing catnip in the churchyard unless you want your property to become a sort of feline Denver or Amsterdam.
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
All the priests I know seem to delight in flicking as much water as they can towards people; always a smile on their face. And I recall a deacon who on his round trip around the church with the thurible always swung it as close as he could to my face without hitting it.
My question... In [higher] Anglican / Catholic churches, are there particular times *not* to make the sign of the cross at the invocation of the Trinity? For example, I attended the Easter Vigil at an Anglican church and the priest gave the final blessing in the name of the Trinity and made the sign of the cross: can I make the sign of the cross or does his cross suffice -- and overrule mine as it were -- and I should keep my hands down?
I ask primarily to not stand out or make some error. I surreptitiously looked around and no-one else seemed to be doing it but I had already started and thought I'd better end continue...I usually try to fit in with what the congregation does but thought I'd ask the wise people here as a general rule. I fear Byzantine Orthodoxy has me on automated cross-mode as soon as I hear "In the name..." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 24. April 2014, 10:24: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
When and where you make the sign of the cross is up to you.
If everyone in the congregation is looking at you, intending to catch you out (which won't happen!) then they are present for the wrong reason and not having their minds on the service.
A couple of times recently, I was on the bus and passing a (Roman) Catholic church, some-one crossed himself/herself. Also in a public place, such as in a restaurant, it is not unknown to make the sign of the cross in public, saying grace.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
IME making the sign of the cross at the final blessing is usual. But again, nobody will mind if you do it in a place where nobody else does!
Personally I can never remember where people do it during the creed.....
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
[A]re there particular times *not* to make the sign of the cross at the invocation of the Trinity? <snip> I fear Byzantine Orthodoxy has me on automated cross-mode as soon as I hear "In the name..."
Ian Climacus, it's good to hear from you again.
You are uniquely positioned, now, to embrace bi-ritualism. It'll be a little awkward at first, but later it will become second nature. You'll have to keep attending Orthodox services, though to make it stick.
As in all drama, you seek your cues and then perform what is appropriate to them within the rite.
In the West—old school Roman Catholicism and and Anglocatholic circles—what is appropriate to any full invocation of the Trinity is a bow, not crossing oneself. In the East, a metania (a bow and crossing oneself) is customary.
In the West crossing oneself is customary at a whole laundry list of moments during the Office and the Mass. Ecclesianticians, in the olden days, used to delight to enumerating these places.
Briefly, some of them are: in the Mass, at the Introit or its substitute, when blessed by the priest (absolution & the final blessing), at Blessed is he who comes, at the resurrection of the dead in the Creed, at the elevation of each species after the Dominical Words, before receiving each species at communion, at Behold the Lamb of God, with the thumb on the forehead, lips, and breast before the Gospel, at the last clause of the Gloria. I'm sure there are others.
In the Office, some of them are at the incipit of the Gospel canticles, with the thumb on the lips at O Lord open thou our lips, at O God make speed to save us, at the resurrection of the dead in the Apostles Creed, and elsewhere.
As in all things, don't sweat getting it perfect. What is important is to love Jesus and to go to mass.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Thanks for the welcome back TSA; great to see you, some old faces and the new ones.
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
In the West—old school Roman Catholicism and and Anglocatholic circles—what is appropriate to any full invocation of the Trinity is a bow, not crossing oneself. In the East, a metania (a bow and crossing oneself) is customary.
Ahhh...that explains the services in the Catholic monasteries I bother on occasion.
Thanks for the detailed explanations, and thank you Jade Constable & Ecclesiastical Flip-flop as well for your comments and explanations. I agree that all should not be worried about what others are up to, but I suppose I was just curious as to any "rules" so I fit in as best I can when I visit. Thanks again.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The Angelus on Good Friday and Holy Saturday: Ring-a da bell? Or, not?
No, no, no! - unless of course you want people to pause and think of a working fisherman, grieving mother or Zambian office worker.
ALL the bells are silent after the Gloria on Holy Thursday, and no, one does not recite the Angelus from then onwards. If you want to make a morning, noon and night recollection at the usual time of the Angelus, then I suggest the Stations of the Cross versicle and response "we adore you O Christ and we bless you etc"
(Way past the time when this answer may have been useful this year, of course, but maybe useful for future reference)
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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