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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Once we start asking questions like 'does anyone believe this tripe ?' it is not long till we start
asking 'is Christianity itself not a load of tripe?'
Like everything else in Christian prayer history it is a product of its time and has to be explained, if used in the public prayer of the Church.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
A fair point, Forthview, and I apologise if my intemperate remark caused offence.
Having said that, I do sometimes wonder at the apparent absurdity and impossibility of the things we Christians are expected (if that's the right word) to believe in!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
just as well we live then in the present time when all is clear and comprehensible !!!
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, the grammar has definitely been re-jigged in translation.
Te Deum (both accusative) laudamus (1st person plural present active indicative)
The 1928 BCP has "We praise thee, O God." The "O" is an addition not present in the Latin, but it makes the sentence flow a bit better and doesn't obscure the meaning.
The 1979 BCP has "You are God; we praise You." To be fair, it's not miles from the sense of the Latin, but neither is it an especially faithful translation. It's a bit like changing the Collect for Advent II from "BLESSED Lord, who hast caused all holy Scriptures to be written for our learning" to "Lord, you inspired Holy Scripture to teach us" (this sort of change was rampant in the ICEL translations of the Roman Rite). Quite what motivated this, apart from an allergy to appositives, I'm not sure, but to my ear it was one of the ugliest tendencies of mod-lang liturgy.
Spot on, Father! In addition to the aforementioned appositive allergy, I think that the ICEL and other translations of the period were very strongly influenced by (what were perceived to be) ecumenical concerns. The mindset seemed to be to avoid the use of ecclesiastical-sounding terminology (blessed, paschal, creed, collect, oblation, etc.), as well as verbiage that implied a vertical relationship between the transcendent God (hallowed, omnipotent, hallow, throne, dominion, hosts, precious, everlasting, etc.) and his dependent, sinful creatures (miserable, unworthy, reckless, wandering, wretched) who need to defer to Him (supplicate, beseech, vouchsafe, humbly, sanctify, pour forth, deign, etc.). The watering down of these elements, which I believe was an attempt to attract other Christians to Catholic liturgy, was not only a miserable failure in every regard, but approaches something that might need to be answered for before the Throne of Grace (all punny language intended.), because of its obfuscatory intent.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I'm just looking at Evangelical Lutheran Worship and I note that the translation of the Collect for Purity, while in contemporary language, retains the appositive where the BAS shifts it to " ... to you all hearts are open."
On a perhaps not complete tangent, I've also noticed the tendency of newer propers to drop "the same" when Christ is already mentioned in a collect. So I end up getting a feeling of déja vu when we get to " ... through Jesus Christ our Lord", as if this is the first we're hearing of him, à la Bob Dole in The Simpsons.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
I've also noticed the tendency of newer propers to drop "the same" when Christ is already mentioned in a collect. So I end up getting a feeling of déja vu when we get to " ... through Jesus Christ our Lord", as if this is the first we're hearing of him, à la Bob Dole in The Simpsons.
If it's anything like the compilers of the NZPB/HKMOA (NZ Anglican) few studied poetics at any serious level, or learned the importance of the ear in "digesting" spoken word. There's some dreadful clunky moments that are all but sufficient to send me to the arms of the Trappists.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Wm Dewy
Shipmate
# 16712
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Posted
I’m sure this has been answered here before, but I don’t find it.
We sit for the Psalm at mass. We stand for a canticle at the office. Do you also sit for a canticle if it’s used as a response to the Old Testament lesson at mass? It seems like you should, but there is always somebody who stands.
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"And harmoniums and barrel - organs be miserable--what shall I call 'em ? - miserable machines for such a divine thing as music!"
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Since they only come a couple of times a year, I like to get people to stand. But in my congo, many don't stand for the Gospel. Either from age, stubbornness, being from a denomination where this is unheard of, they haven't noticed most people standing, and don't want to do anything such as "please stand" or "please be seated."
Well, I'll say, "let us stand for the canticle." I wish we could sing the old tune for the Benedictus es tomorrow, but only two or three people know TEC used to be Morning Prayer and remember those days and old tunes.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Is it permissible to use the Te Deum in place of the Gloria on Trinity Sunday?
My parish waits to say the Te Deum until right after the mass.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Is it permissible to use the Te Deum in place of the Gloria on Trinity Sunday?
My parish waits to say the Te Deum until right after the mass.
Marion J. Hatchett in his Commentary of the American Prayer Book (1979) rides to the rescue.
The abundant, 62-page, topical index gives a subentry on "Eucharist of Easter Vigil" beneath "Te Deum." This directs the reader to a rubric on page 294 of the BCP telling that the Canticle at this service can be the Gloria in excelsis, the Te Deum laudamus,, or the Pascha nostrum. This leads the enquiring mind to search out the rubrics for an ordinary mass. So, on page 324 at the beginning of "The Holy Eucharist: Rite One," immediately after the texts for the Kyrie and the Agios o Theos, one finds this just before the text for the Gloria: quote:
When appointed, the following hymn or some other song of praise is sung or said, in addition to, or in place of the preceding, all standing.
In short, Barefoot Friar, according to the diffuse use of the Episcopal Church, your answer is, Yes.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wm Dewy:
We sit for the Psalm at mass. We stand for a canticle at the office. Do you also sit for a canticle if it’s used as a response to the Old Testament lesson at mass?
Yes. We had that today, with the psalm being from the book of Daniel. (Just because it's not in the book of Psalms doesn't make it not a psalm, just like not all the proverbs are in Proverbs or lamentations in Lamentations).
quote:
It seems like you should, but there is always somebody who stands.
I'm impressed anyone noticed anything different!
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Is a ciborium any relation to the chuppah/huppah held above the couple during a Jewish wedding ceremony?
If so, it gives some lovely additional symbolism to the Eucharist.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I don't know if it has a relationship with the canopy,but CIBORIUM comes from the Latin word CIBUS which means FOOD
CIBORIUM is also used sometimes as the name for a canopy over an altar,usually made of some sort of stone.The canopy can also be called BALDACCHINO
which comes from BALDACCO,being an old name in Italian for the city which many people know as Baghdad and originally referred to the fine silk hangings (from Baghdad) which were part of the canopy.
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Arpeggi
Apprentice
# 17487
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Posted
I was watching a lovely video of Maundy Thursday mass at S. Ignatius of Antioch Episcopal Church in NYC. (You have do direct yourself due to the coding, if you're interested.)
The liturgy is Rite I with Catholic additions. Something curious I noticed about the liturgy was during the invitation for communion. The celebrant recites the Ecce Agnus Dei, "Behold the Lamb of God. Behold Him who taketh away the sins of the world." However this was not followed by the Domine Non Sum Dignus. ("Lord I am not Worthy...") Instead communion immediately followed.
I know neither one is strictly BCP, but I find it odd to include one but exclude the other. Is this common? Is it due to theological objections or simply parish practice?
[ 16. July 2014, 06:45: Message edited by: Arpeggi ]
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
That's Ultraspike's parish. If she were still an active Shipmate she could tell us in a flash.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arpeggi:
I was watching a lovely video of Maundy Thursday mass at S. Ignatius of Antioch Episcopal Church in NYC. (You have do direct yourself due to the coding, if you're interested.)
The liturgy is Rite I with Catholic additions. Something curious I noticed about the liturgy was during the invitation for communion. The celebrant recites the Ecce Agnus Dei, "Behold the Lamb of God. Behold Him who taketh away the sins of the world." However this was not followed by the Domine Non Sum Dignus. ("Lord I am not Worthy...") Instead communion immediately followed.
I know neither one is strictly BCP, but I find it odd to include one but exclude the other. Is this common? Is it due to theological objections or simply parish practice?
Not sure of the answer for St. Ignatius' parish, but at Ascension, Chicago, it currently goes like this:
Priest: Behold the Lamb of God; behold him who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper. Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof.
People: But only say the word, and my soul shall be healed.
Priest: The gifts of God for the people of God.
<then the administration of the Sacrament proceeds, as the Agnus Dei is sung>
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arpeggi:
The celebrant recites the Ecce Agnus Dei, "Behold the Lamb of God. Behold Him who taketh away the sins of the world." However this was not followed by the Domine Non Sum Dignus. ("Lord I am not Worthy...") Instead communion immediately followed.
This was the practice at Our Lady of Hardwork until a rector in the '90s added it in.
Now you couldn't stop the congregation from saying it, even if not prompted by the celebrant.
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Not sure if this is the right place to ask it but does anyone know what is involved in becoming a member of the Church of England.
I was baptised and confirmed a Roman Catholic, have attended a CofE church for about 20 years. I have led Sunday school, bible studies, been involved in outreach and am an occasional preacher. Now want to take the next step to be an LLM but have been told that I will have to become a member of the church. Have the last 20 years of dedication not meant that I am a member? What more do I need to do, after all I can't be baptised or confirmed again?
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Now want to take the next step to be an LLM but have been told that I will have to become a member of the church.
You'll need to be "received into the Church of England". It's not terribly complicated - talk to your priest.
See here
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I believe that's the procedure in the Episcopal Church USA also. RC baptism and confirmation would be seen as valid (although you may be asked to show your baptismal certificate), so you wouldn't have to receive those sacraments again. You would, however, have to be "received" into the Episcopal Church by the bishop, most likely after attending an "enquirer's class."
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
Tessa
A friend of mine at theological college was in the same position as you ( and by that time in training for ordination). One day when Bishop was present a small group of us gathered with her at the font in the local church and she was asked again to reaffirm her baptism vows ( as we all do at the Easter vigil) There was then a declaration ( three short questions to ask if she wanted to be received into communion with the C of E) she4 then came to the font where she was signed with the cross by the Bishop. There were then a couple of prayers. It was a very simple and moving service.
The details of the service of reception into the C of E can be found
Reception into the Church of England
There is also provision for this to take place within a Communion service we just happened to have a short service.
It doesn't deny your commitment that has been demonstrated, simply fulfils the requirement for all ordained ministers of the C of E to be members of the C of E.
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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Very similar to here. My recollection is that a bishop is needed and the short service fits easily into a confirmation. Perhaps if you are to become an LLM, the formalities for that along with a blessing could easily occur just after the Reception.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Same here - we recently had a combined service, with someone being received into the CofE at the same time as confirmation, baptism and reaffirmation of baptism. Once you manage to capture a pointy hat, you make use of it as much as possible, before it vanishes again for another year!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
RC baptism and confirmation would be seen as valid (although you may be asked to show your baptismal certificate)
For someone (including, as it happens, me) who was confirmed by a mere RC priest not in bishop's orders, what's the CofE's take on the validity of the confirmation? As I understand it, CofE priests aren't permitted to confirm unless they're bishops.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
RC baptism and confirmation would be seen as valid (although you may be asked to show your baptismal certificate)
For someone (including, as it happens, me) who was confirmed by a mere RC priest not in bishop's orders, what's the CofE's take on the validity of the confirmation? As I understand it, CofE priests aren't permitted to confirm unless they're bishops.
While the ordinary minister of confirmtion is the bishop, there are many situations in which a priest can confirm, using the chrism consecrated by his bishop. This is perfectly valid, and the C of E recognizes that. I believe that their priests are also empowered to confirm under certain circumstances, at least in danger of death, even if it rarely happens. When I grew up in TEC, that was the case.
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
RC baptism and confirmation would be seen as valid (although you may be asked to show your baptismal certificate)
For someone (including, as it happens, me) who was confirmed by a mere RC priest not in bishop's orders, what's the CofE's take on the validity of the confirmation? As I understand it, CofE priests aren't permitted to confirm unless they're bishops.
My wife was confirmed by an RC priest and that was perfectly fine when she joined TEC - the bishop's presence is essentially supplied by the grant of faculties by the RC bishop and the consecration of the chrism thereby. Presumably the CofE is similar.
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recklessrat
Shipmate
# 17243
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Not sure if this is the right place to ask it but does anyone know what is involved in becoming a member of the Church of England.
I was baptised and confirmed a Roman Catholic, have attended a CofE church for about 20 years. I have led Sunday school, bible studies, been involved in outreach and am an occasional preacher. Now want to take the next step to be an LLM but have been told that I will have to become a member of the church. Have the last 20 years of dedication not meant that I am a member? What more do I need to do, after all I can't be baptised or confirmed again?
I have been through this and the process was very much as Jante described. I didn't have to do preparation classes or anything, just a very straightforward ceremony, albeit alongside some schoolchildren who were being confirmed! We did have trouble tracking down my original baptism certificate though and had to ring the RC church for a copy - a bit awkward!
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stay simple, remain whole
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
Canon B27 confirms that the confirmation service must be performed by a Bishop but B28 allows those from other churches who have been episcopally confirmed with unction or with the laying on of hands, with the permission of the bishop, to be received into the Church of England according to the Form of Reception
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I have seen acceptance into the CofE: the RC baptised and confirmed husband and father of two confirmation candidates was accepted into the CofE as part of the confirmation service.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
RC baptism and confirmation would be seen as valid (although you may be asked to show your baptismal certificate)
For someone (including, as it happens, me) who was confirmed by a mere RC priest not in bishop's orders, what's the CofE's take on the validity of the confirmation? As I understand it, CofE priests aren't permitted to confirm unless they're bishops.
My wife was confirmed by an RC priest and that was perfectly fine when she joined TEC - the bishop's presence is essentially supplied by the grant of faculties by the RC bishop and the consecration of the chrism thereby. Presumably the CofE is similar.
CoE canonists can chip in if they wish, but in the Anglican Church of Canada, the canons require a bishop's hand. AFAIK few prelates receiving RCs ask if their confirmation was presbyteral (rare among the Latin RCs here) or episcopal. I have only seen RCs integrated into our Borg through reception.
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
FWIW, confirmation by a priest is very common for adults being received or baptised during the parochial Easter Vigil. Not at all rare. Children who are received join their agemates in the confirmation process.
[ 17. July 2014, 22:28: Message edited by: PeteC ]
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Even more so than I was before
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by recklessrat:
I have been through this and the process was very much as Jante described. I didn't have to do preparation classes or anything, just a very straightforward ceremony, albeit alongside some schoolchildren who were being confirmed! We did have trouble tracking down my original baptism certificate though and had to ring the RC church for a copy - a bit awkward!
Surely being received alongside those being confirmed is a joy? It is part of being a parish, a congregation and a community.
[fixed code - preview post is your friend]
[ 18. July 2014, 20:09: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
I have recent knowledge of a wise CofE Bishop who, when the question of the presbyteral confirmation of a (now) Anglican candidate for ordination to the diaconate arose, deftly dealt with the question of validity of confirmation, by swiftly and privately administering conditional confirmation on the candidate, thus not denying the validity of the former act, but merely correcting any defect (if indeed any defect occurred). No one was embarrassed, nothing was impaired, no validity denied and charity and certainty preserved!
Result!
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
FWIW, confirmation by a priest is very common for adults being received or baptised during the parochial Easter Vigil. Not at all rare. Children who are received join their agemates in the confirmation process.
I was less than well-informed, then, by a contact whose knowledge is I now think too theoretical for words, as PeteC is around the parish coalface more than those who prefer academic life.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
I have recent knowledge of a wise CofE Bishop who, when the question of the presbyteral confirmation of a (now) Anglican candidate for ordination to the diaconate arose, deftly dealt with the question of validity of confirmation, by swiftly and privately administering conditional confirmation on the candidate, thus not denying the validity of the former act, but merely correcting any defect (if indeed any defect occurred). No one was embarrassed, nothing was impaired, no validity denied and charity and certainty preserved!
Result!
Hmm, but the CoE recognizes confirmation with episcopally-consecrated chrism even when administered by a presbyter ...
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recklessrat
Shipmate
# 17243
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by recklessrat:
I have been through this and the process was very much as Jante described. I didn't have to do preparation classes or anything, just a very straightforward ceremony, albeit alongside some schoolchildren who were being confirmed! We did have trouble tracking down my original baptism certificate though and had to ring the RC church for a copy - a bit awkward!
Surely being received alongside those being confirmed is a joy? It is part of being a parish, a congregation and a community.
Oh it was, the children weren't all that straightforward, that was all!
[fixed code]
[ 18. July 2014, 20:09: Message edited by: seasick ]
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stay simple, remain whole
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Does anyone out there know of a relatively recent hymn, sung to the tune "Finlandia"?
I am aware of "We rest of thee" and "Be still my soul". But I am sure that there is another set of words. I have a suspicion (only that) that it might be something written by Timothy Dudley-Smith or Michael Baughan or Michael Perry.
I have found THIS wikipedia page. But this doesn't contain what I am looking for.
This is driving me mad! Can any one put me out of my misery?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Oscar - are you thinking of a Good Friday hymn? A modern version of the lamentations? I can think of one I've sung to Finlandia like that, but can't remember enough to track it down, but I'll go dig when I'm around later.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Yes, that's a version of the reproaches - it's in this order of service.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Yes, that's the one I was thinking of, and it is Michael Forster. I just couldn't dig the word "reproaches" out of the memory banks.
Thank you seasick.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
There's a version of the Magnificat set to Finlandia. I think it might be called "Tell out my soul," but I'm not sure.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Isn't Tell out my soul normally sung to Woodlands?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Signaller
Shipmate
# 17495
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Posted
I was all set to trot out "We trust in you", number 446 in Hymns for Today's Church, but realised just in time that it is the 'modern' version of "We rest in Thee".
The sooner we get rid of that b***** book, the better. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
[ 20. July 2014, 18:59: Message edited by: Signaller ]
Posts: 113 | From: Metroland | Registered: Jan 2013
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Isn't Tell out my soul normally sung to Woodlands?
Here's what I was thinking of. It's called "Sing out my soul."
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I'm more familiar with "Be Still My Soul" set to Finlandia.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
There is a List on Hymnary.org of ones that have made a selection of hymnbooks (US based)
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
I have recent knowledge of a wise CofE Bishop who, when the question of the presbyteral confirmation of a (now) Anglican candidate for ordination to the diaconate arose, deftly dealt with the question of validity of confirmation, by swiftly and privately administering conditional confirmation on the candidate. . .
Hmm, but the CoE recognizes confirmation with episcopally-consecrated chrism even when administered by a presbyter ...
Does it? Can you quote an authority for that?
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Here you go.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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