homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » Lost in a liturgical desert (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Lost in a liturgical desert
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ha ha ...

A Reformed Baptist minister back home in South Wales allegedly spent four years going through Jude verse by verse.

I'm sure that was an exaggeration but having sat through one of his sermons on Jude I'm not sure it was much of one ...

[Big Grin]

Meanwhile, on complaining to the Archdeacon. I don't know who our Archdeacon is, but I'm sure I could find out.

What purpose would it serve?

Would he compel our vicar to use the lectionary?

All it'd do would be to create bad blood.

Our vicar tends to be 'my way or the highway' as it is ...

I'm not scared of the bloke, but I'm not sure what complaining to ecclesiastical authorities who turn a blind eye to breaches of rubric would achieve.

Our vicar only wears vestments when the bishop comes and I'm told that's only to strike a deal whereby he can get away without wearing them the rest of the time.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15694 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
...ecclesiastical authorities who turn a blind eye to breaches of rubric ...
And there's the rub. I've been reading a bit about ++Geoffrey Fisher (+ Chester in the 30s, as it happens) lately. He wouldn't have stood for this sort of thing. Oh well.
Posts: 6465 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ha ha ...

A Reformed Baptist minister back home in South Wales allegedly spent four years going through Jude verse by verse.

I'm sure that was an exaggeration but having sat through one of his sermons on Jude I'm not sure it was much of one ...

Of course, there are pitfalls with other types of preaching too. There is a story of a preacher at Yale who waxed eloquent on the virtues of (say) Youth, Athleticism, Literacy and Enthusiasm - about ten minutes on each.

After the service two students were walking down the path. One started giggling. "Why are you laughing?", asked the other, "That was dire".

"Yes", came the reply, "but I'm just being thankful that we're not studying at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology".

[Yes, I know that it can be abbreviated but don't spoil the story!]

Better get back to the thread ...

Posts: 9568 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745

 - Posted      Profile for Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Email Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have come to this thread a bit belatedly, after the posts have had time to build up.

You have my synpathies Angloid and my feelings on this subject are similar to yours. For now (until I peruse over the posts in greater depth), the analogy I sometimes give is that if you go to a restaurant and what you want is off the menu, then go to another restaurant; for me, the same is true of church.

I am not called Ecclesiastical Flip-flop for nothing, and I challenge any vicar to ask me to be churchwarden! No church I find to be perfect and what I miss at one church, I find at another.

--------------------
Bonne Année! - Frohes Neues Jahr! - Felice Anno Nuovo! - ¡Feliz Año Nuevo! – Happy New Year!

Posts: 1926 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well yes, I've heard that when he was Bishop of Southwark Melvin Stockwood had to remonstrate with a vicar who would lecture his dwindling congregation on his model train hobby rather than preach from Biblical texts ...

Thinking about it, Baptist Trainfan ... ?

[Big Grin]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15694 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
i don't think a legalistic approach works, and certainly not complaining to the archdeacon or even bishop. Not about specific situations anyway, though some reminders from the hierarchy about the requirements might be in order.

It's not about the letter but the spirit. It is about give and take, horses for courses and all that. It isn't about dull conformity. But unless we are to go completely down the road of congregationalism (as an attitude: I don't intend a slur on current or former denominations of that name), there has to be some form of common practice, which unsurprisingly Common Worship was designed to provide. It is very flexible, but there are requirements that are not always upheld.

I would like to think that every Anglican ought to be able to attend their (geographical) parish church, not necessarily expectingliturgy tailored to their own preferences but to find the basics to enable them fulfil their religious obligations.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12905 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't think complaining would achieve anything.

The powers-that-be turn a blind eye for pragmatic reasons.

Our parish is considered the most 'successful' in the deanery so no-one's going to start quibbling with them for not observing liturgical niceties.

For my own part, I'm in a cleft stick as I find our parish rather too earnestly evangelical and somewhat dumbed-down and the other parish in town I find more liturgically palatable but rather too liberal ...

I'm an awkward so-and-so ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15694 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well yes, I've heard that when he was Bishop of Southwark Melvin Stockwood had to remonstrate with a vicar who would lecture his dwindling congregation on his model train hobby rather than preach from Biblical texts ...

Thinking about it, Baptist Trainfan ... ?

[Big Grin]

I've never mentioned model trains, you understand ...
Posts: 9568 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It isn't about dull conformity. But unless we are to go completely down the road of congregationalism ..., there has to be some form of common practice, which unsurprisingly Common Worship was designed to provide. It is very flexible, but there are requirements that are not always upheld.

ISTM that, in practice, many CofE churches are becoming more and more congregationalist in the way they operate (in the sense of "doing their own thing"; the way they take decisions is often very far from being congregationalist).

quote:
I would like to think that every Anglican ought to be able to attend their (geographical) parish church, not necessarily expecting liturgy tailored to their own preferences but to find the basics to enable them fulfil their religious obligations.
Which was really the point I was trying to make upthread.
Posts: 9568 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
...ISTM that, in practice, many CofE churches are becoming more and more congregationalist in the way they operate (in the sense of "doing their own thing"; the way they take decisions is often very far from being congregationalist)....

Thus getting the worst of both worlds.
What I can't understand is why, if these bloody buggers want to be Vineyard or RC or whatever, they don't just have the self-respect to sod off and do it. Social status and pension rights seem to be keeping a lot of people in the CofE who really ought, for everybody's benefit, to be finding a more suitable context for their talents elsewhere.

Posts: 6465 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

 - Posted      Profile for Zappa   Email Zappa   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So far as I can see the disciplinary solution can only come from bishops ... and the inherent labyrinths of Anglicanism probably mean that few bishops that are appointed are likely to be ones who will kick the arses of happy clappy but numerically self-interested clergy. And so the convolutions go on and the soul of Anglicanism wobbles ...

but I see the faintest hint of change occasionally and wonder if a new Oxford Movement isn't beginning to gestate ... the only thing is that we who are into liturgical/sacramental faith must be prepared to break open the meaning of the texts with us much energy as we break open the texts of scripture - and must do that too ...

which is why the self-indulgent piffle I observed in my own pad yesterday, from someone who thinks I am the pits, was so spiritually debilitating.

But I had a wardens' meeting yesterday, too [Snigger]

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

Posts: 18839 | From: scarily close to 40° | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Much though part of me sympathises - I like a reasonable amount of liturgy and an element of dignity - is it the CofE's calling to be Anglican or the Church of England? Do we live to serve the tradition? Or do we see the tradition as something that might help draw a nation that has largely lost interest in the Christian faith, back to God. To put it another way, are we here to re-evangelise the nation or to keep a few old buffers of both sexes like us from feeling too lost in a world that has become increasingly alien?

I happen to think that a lectionary, the Church Year, and a structured liturgy serve the church's mission rather better than relying on whatever bright idea happens to have occurred to the vicar or the musicians that morning. But if
quote:
a moving and dignified eucharist
merely engages a
quote:
tiny congregation and few resources
one has to ask whether that's what best advances the kingdom of heaven.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7442 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The trouble with the liturgies of the CofE in recent time is that no one has ever asked the occasional worshipper what they feel.

A friend's late husband attended church mainly on high days and holydays - Christmas, Easter, maybe a carol service, Remembrance Sunday - and for occasional offices. Latterly he refused to attend the Easter communion service because it had become what he referred to as a "hello mate" service; instead he went to the Vigil service because he said it had a proper sense of being special and different from the everyday.

All of the tweaking of liturgy has been, we're told, thoroughly researched and teams of bishops and liturgists are sure it is now more 'authentic' than it was - though how moving towards a pattern of supposed 4th century worship can be authentic in a church founded as a semi-reformed entity in the 16th century is puzzling. But at no time do these people ever think to test-drive the services with people who are not habitual attendees.

Frankly, if you want to attract people to a product you don't test out an improved or changed version on people who say they'd buy it anyway.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4765 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Much though part of me sympathises - I like a reasonable amount of liturgy and an element of dignity - is it the CofE's calling to be Anglican or the Church of England? Do we live to serve the tradition? Or do we see the tradition as something that might help draw a nation that has largely lost interest in the Christian faith, back to God. To put it another way, are we here to re-evangelise the nation or to keep a few old buffers of both sexes like us from feeling too lost in a world that has become increasingly alien?



I don't think the calling of the C of E is to perpetuate the Book of Common Prayer, or vicarage tea parties, or bishops in the House of Lords, or any aspect of the respectable-establishment brand. But we are I think called to be the 'default' church of the nation. Not that we are more authentic, or more Christian, than any other Christian body (indeed, they are often freer and more flexible to achieve greater things). It's because there ought to be a Church which is the Christian presence in every community, which everybody can turn to if they wish. So there ought to be a basic recognisable structure and a liturgy which is just 'there' for people to tune into as and when they feel drawn. Cathedral Evensong serves this purpose for many; there are more local and less 'highbrow' equivalents and they should be available; the church is not a private club.

quote:
But if
quote:
a moving and dignified eucharist
merely engages a
quote:
tiny congregation and few resources
one has to ask whether that's what best advances the kingdom of heaven.

To ask, yes, but without expecting the answer 'no'. I don't think there is much if any correlation between the size of the congregation and the style of worship. As a retired priest often 'on call' I see congregations of all traditions from 'happy-clappy' or snake belly low to exotically high; whatever their 'churchmanship' few of those in deprived inner-city areas are large or flourishing. The crowds flock to churches of all types in the middle-class suburbs.
Posts: 12905 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Very wise words, Angloid: you've expressed very succinctly something which I have been groping towards.

quote:
It's because there ought to be a Church which is the Christian presence in every community, which everybody can turn to if they wish. So there ought to be a basic recognisable structure and a liturgy which is just 'there' for people to tune into as and when they feel drawn.
That I think is the crux of it. The Church of England does not belong to a few enthusiasts (in both the technical and non-technical senses) among the clergy and the regularly worshipping laity, whether at a local or a national level. In one but very important way, it belongs,to the people of England: it is their church and it is there for them to meet God in.

[ 02. April 2015, 07:34: Message edited by: Albertus ]

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6465 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
On the contrary. It is just because the C of E is "for all" that its services are now so often reduced to primary school assembly level, IHHO.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3187 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No, it's because the professional church people, lay and clerical (especially the latter?) have an insufferably patronising view of what the average person can deal with. This fault is not of course confined to the CofE: the BBC, other media, educational institutions, and so on are all to a greater or lesser degree guilty of it too.

[ 02. April 2015, 14:26: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posts: 6465 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, it's because the professional church people, lay and clerical (especially the latter?) have an insufferably patronising view of what the average person can deal with. This fault is not of course confined to the CofE: the BBC, other media, educational institutions, and so on are all to a greater or lesser degree guilty of it too.

Patronising, but paradoxically also overly intellectual. The idea that liturgy must be comprehensible by words and intellect alone leads people to undervalue symbolism, poetry and the affective dimension of worship. Ordinary people, without any theological education (including of course young children) can be moved by liturgy without having to understand every word.

I had a gob-smacked moment a few years ago at the Christmas mass in an up-the-candle but not poker-up-the-bum church, when the vicar chanted the gospel (St John"s prologue) in Latin. His sermon explained his reasons perfectly: this is the ultimate mystery which we can never claim to understand whatever language it is expressed in.

Posts: 12905 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
I had a gob-smacked moment a few years ago at the Christmas mass in an up-the-candle but not poker-up-the-bum church, when the vicar chanted the gospel (St John"s prologue) in Latin. His sermon explained his reasons perfectly: this is the ultimate mystery which we can never claim to understand whatever language it is expressed in.
Hang on a mo'. On the last page you were complaining that clergy were playing fast and loose with the canons. I don't think that you can have it both ways.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9712 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, you're right, Angloid. Overly intellectual in its emphasis on words and so on: patronising in that they have a low estimation of the kind of words that people can understand.
Posts: 6465 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I had a gob-smacked moment when I saw the house-group notes that our vicar had passed around when they were studying Jonah.

I don't go to any of the house-groups and avoid anything like that at our local parish like the plague, but he usual does some suggested discussion topics to accompany each chapter with activities that people might like to do ...

Imagine my horror when I noticed that one of them suggested that people 'draw a picture of the whale' ...

[Eek!] [Ultra confused]

I mean, this was for adults ...

How old did he think they all were? 12?

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15694 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
7, I'd say.
Posts: 6465 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294

 - Posted      Profile for georgiaboy   Email georgiaboy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The trouble with the liturgies of the CofE in recent time is that no one has ever asked the occasional worshipper what they feel.

All of the tweaking of liturgy has been, we're told, thoroughly researched and teams of bishops and liturgists are sure it is now more 'authentic' than it was - though how moving towards a pattern of supposed 4th century worship can be authentic in a church founded as a semi-reformed entity in the 16th century is puzzling. But at no time do these people ever think to test-drive the services with people who are not habitual attendees.

Frankly, if you want to attract people to a product you don't test out an improved or changed version on people who say they'd buy it anyway.

On the other hand (and from across the pond) -- TEC went through an extraordinarily long and complicated 'test drive' leading up the adoption of its present BCP. We had a whole series of 'trial liturgies,' with published paperbacked books. Thus there was 'the Green Book,' 'the Zebra Book (striped cover),' and 'the Son-of-Zebra Book.' Leading up to and interspersed with these was an astounding poundage of working papers. Each bishop was charged to appoint 2 'reader consultants,' one clerical, one lay, who were supposed to read and report back on all of this. (I well remember -- I was one of them -- and I would have had to have given up my day job to do justice to the project. (I finally limited my attention to the Eucharist and the Psalter -- I really couldn't get too excited about The Churching of Women.)
There were also surveys to be distributed to each congregation to get their reactions.

Did it help? Probably not much. Folk were crowding the exits to get away from the whole mess. (And I was in a parish that signed on to do the whole process - many probably fudged much of it.)

--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.

Posts: 1662 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
I had a gob-smacked moment a few years ago at the Christmas mass in an up-the-candle but not poker-up-the-bum church, when the vicar chanted the gospel (St John"s prologue) in Latin. His sermon explained his reasons perfectly: this is the ultimate mystery which we can never claim to understand whatever language it is expressed in.
Hang on a mo'. On the last page you were complaining that clergy were playing fast and loose with the canons. I don't think that you can have it both ways.
I think you are misinterpreting my point. It wasn't about legalism but about being true to the spirit. This priest was naughty but I would defend him in the context of his church and the sermon he gave.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12905 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Imagine my horror when I noticed that one of them suggested that people 'draw a picture of the whale' ...

What whale? There ain't one in my Bible (liturgical or otherwise).

[ 03. April 2015, 12:12: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posts: 9568 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think you are misinterpreting my point. It wasn't about legalism but about being true to the spirit. This priest was naughty but I would defend him in the context of his church and the sermon he gave.

Mmm, but one must perhaps beware of being more forgiving of deviations which one personally likes, and more critical of those which one doesn't.
Posts: 9568 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220

 - Posted      Profile for Corvo   Email Corvo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
I had a gob-smacked moment a few years ago at the Christmas mass in an up-the-candle but not poker-up-the-bum church, when the vicar chanted the gospel (St John"s prologue) in Latin. His sermon explained his reasons perfectly: this is the ultimate mystery which we can never claim to understand whatever language it is expressed in.
Hang on a mo'. On the last page you were complaining that clergy were playing fast and loose with the canons. I don't think that you can have it both ways.
I think you are misinterpreting my point. It wasn't about legalism but about being true to the spirit. This priest was naughty but I would defend him in the context of his church and the sermon he gave.
Canon B42 allows services to be held in Latin in various churches and chapels including "places of religious and sound learning as custom allows or the bishop or other the Ordinary may permit". The Vicar could probably have relied on this to read in Latin a part of the service (the Prologue) that everyone would probably know anyway. There appears to be no legal basis for a public reading in the original Greek.
Posts: 671 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ha ha ... to be fair, Baptist Trainfan, I think his house-group notes did point out that the scripture says that it was a 'big fish' rather than a whale ...

The point, of course, is that we were offered the opportunity to draw a picture of it ...

[Roll Eyes]

That said, one of the things I like most about you is your ability to mitigate - rather than militate -

Barnabas62 has that quality too.

[Overused]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15694 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Meanwhile, in more militating rather than mitigating mood, I've posted something about liturgical awkwardity - to coin a phrase - on the 'Communion on Good Friday' post.

In theory, I don't have a problem with that ... but in practice ... at least how it was done where I am ...

[Ultra confused]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15694 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Imagine my horror when I noticed that one of them suggested that people 'draw a picture of the whale' ...

[Eek!] [Ultra confused]

I mean, this was for adults ...

How old did he think they all were? 12?

Maybe they did the chorus with actions too 'No listen to the tale (tail?) of jonah and the whale, way down in the middle of the ocean.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23122 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Offeiriad

Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031

 - Posted      Profile for Offeiriad   Email Offeiriad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Callan:
[qb] Originally posted by Angloid:

Canon B42 allows services to be held in Latin in various churches and chapels including "places of religious and sound learning as custom allows or the bishop or other the Ordinary may permit". The Vicar could probably have relied on this to read in Latin a part of the service (the Prologue) that everyone would probably know anyway. There appears to be no legal basis for a public reading in the original Greek.
Don't think you can appeal to that one! The priest is unlikely to have been the 'Ordinary' of that place, and it would have to be Some Parish to make a credible claim to be a 'place of religious and sound learning'! Greek - that's an interesting one: if my memory serves me, there was a (Classical) Greek BCP at one point, so it must have been used somewhere?

The best you could do is read the Gospel in Welsh (still allowed in England where Welsh is spoken) and tell the congo that it was Greek. It doesn't actually fit the Canons, but it's a complicated enough point to keep several Canon Lawyers occupied for a few weeks.

Posts: 1425 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Last night at Maundy Thursday mass in the local Episcopal cathedral: altar dressed in purple, priest wore purple, deacon wore red, no Gloria let alone bells rung during it. After altar was stripped, all lights were suddenly turned off and a loud noise made. (Were they confusing it with Tenebrae?)

To their credit: foot washing with everyone in congo washing each others' feet; lots of Latin (Durufle Ubi Caritas and others); beautiful Pange Lingua during procession to altar of repose; beautiful chanting of Psalm 22.

--------------------
"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

Posts: 10389 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Last night at Maundy Thursday mass in the local Episcopal cathedral: altar dressed in purple, priest wore purple, deacon wore red, no Gloria let alone bells rung during it. After altar was stripped, all lights were suddenly turned off and a loud noise made. (Were they confusing it with Tenebrae?)

It might have been the same problem we had - the loud noise was a result of someone walking into a step in the dark.
Posts: 2878 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No, it was clearly a "manufactured" sound from "offstage". I forgot to add -- the choir sang Billings' "When Jesus Wept" -- talk about irony!

--------------------
"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

Posts: 10389 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451

 - Posted      Profile for Pearl B4 Swine   Email Pearl B4 Swine   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've thought about splicing some words into that, to read "when the baby Jesus and his Mother wept".

--------------------
Oinkster

"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)

Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It seems to me that all this preaching on Good Friday misses the point.

Words failed. On Good Friday, it was actions, not words.

If I couldn't get to the Liturguy, a Quaker silence might be more fitting.

[ 04. April 2015, 09:39: Message edited by: leo ]

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23122 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A Quaker silence might be the answer to a lot of liturgical spats.

Because nobody says anything - for the most part - there's nothing to disagree with ...

[Big Grin]

But you're right.

Interestingly, Mrs Gamaliel who isn't particular 'traditional' or liturgical in her approach, observed to me after the Good Friday evening service where she'd been singing - she helps out with a medieval parish church choir (some of the choristers are pretty medieval too ...):

'It just shows you don't need a 45 minute sermon. The readings, hymns and anthems speak for themselves.'

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15694 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'It just shows you don't need a 45 minute sermon. The readings, hymns and anthems speak for themselves.'

I agree with that. I've been to a number of excellent Good Friday services over the years, but one of the best simply read an assembly of the passion narrative from different gospels, in sections with a hymn between each section and plenty of silence, particularly at the end.

It's not even that the message is in the narrative. The narrative is the message.

Too often, we think we have to tell people what to feel. Ask yourself. Do you like it when other people tell you what you should be feeling?

[ 04. April 2015, 11:26: Message edited by: Enoch ]

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7442 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... liturgical spats...

Crikey- who wears those? Like gaiters but in seasonal colours, I suppose.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6465 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745

 - Posted      Profile for Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Email Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... liturgical spats...

Crikey- who wears those? Like gaiters but in seasonal colours, I suppose.
... liturgical spats ... - are you sure that's what Gamaliel said? I don't find that.

As for gaiters, in case any shipmate doesn't know, that item of attire was worn by Anglican bishops and other prelates in bygone days and I am old enough to remember those being worn.

--------------------
Bonne Année! - Frohes Neues Jahr! - Felice Anno Nuovo! - ¡Feliz Año Nuevo! – Happy New Year!

Posts: 1926 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Too often, we think we have to tell people what to feel. Ask yourself. Do you like it when other people tell you what you should be feeling?

Indeed - I don't preach on Good Friday but explain that the Veneration of the Cross is 'an acted sermon'.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23122 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nice one, Leo.

I'll order us both a set of 'liturgical spats' shall I? The colours will be changing soon ...

[Big Grin]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15694 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... liturgical spats...

Crikey- who wears those? Like gaiters but in seasonal colours, I suppose.
... liturgical spats ... - are you sure that's what Gamaliel said? I don't find that.

As for gaiters, in case any shipmate doesn't know, that item of attire was worn by Anglican bishops and other prelates in bygone days and I am old enough to remember those being worn.

Oh yes, it's there in Gamaliel's posting. Of course, neither liturgical spats nor gaiters would be worn with ecclesiastical flip-flops... [Smile]

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6465 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Arf! Arf! Arf!

[Big Grin]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15694 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745

 - Posted      Profile for Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Email Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... liturgical spats...

Crikey- who wears those? Like gaiters but in seasonal colours, I suppose.
... liturgical spats ... - are you sure that's what Gamaliel said? I don't find that.

As for gaiters, in case any shipmate doesn't know, that item of attire was worn by Anglican bishops and other prelates in bygone days and I am old enough to remember those being worn.

Oh yes, it's there in Gamaliel's posting. Of course, neither liturgical spats nor gaiters would be worn with ecclesiastical flip-flops... [Smile]
I had looked for the spat reference referred to, but I had obviously missed it. PM me if you want to know the origin of my alias name on s-o-f. Although I am one for wearing flip-flops, the significance is more figurative than literal.

--------------------
Bonne Année! - Frohes Neues Jahr! - Felice Anno Nuovo! - ¡Feliz Año Nuevo! – Happy New Year!

Posts: 1926 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hooker's Trick

Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89

 - Posted      Profile for Hooker's Trick   Author's homepage   Email Hooker's Trick   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was in a picturesque village Somewhere In England for Palm Sunday. I dutifully consulted the website of the Parish Church which promised an 'Family Eucharist' at 11. Despite some trepidation as to what 'Family Service' might entail, I gamely trundled off to the 13th-century church, only to find the door locked fast and no one about. I noticed a monthly calendar pinned up in the church porch, helpfully informing me that the Palm Sunday service would take place at 10am in another church in the benefice.

No wonder church attendance is declining if parishes cannot even accurately advertise the set services!

The previous Sunday saw me at a by-the-book BCP service at St Giles's in London, which was some consolation.

Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was confused upthread by the word "intellectual" being applied (as I took it) to patronizing and reductive all age worship.

The word I'd use is "didactic" albeit the teaching is usual trite and superficial.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3187 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think you're right - and I think that the Reformed/Evangelical tradition has always been hotter on "teaching" than "mystery", on "intellectual understanding" than "awe and wonder" - which is why IMO it's a better fit for Nonconformist churches rather than Anglicans.

However I don't think that the post you mention was specifically referring to All-age services - that, I suggest, is your extrapolation. I think it meant that liturgical language had been, in general "slimmed down" to aid comprehension.

Posts: 9568 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
I gamely trundled off to the 13th-century church, only to find the door locked fast and no one about. I noticed a monthly calendar pinned up in the church porch, helpfully informing me that the Palm Sunday service would take place at 10am in another church in the benefice.

No wonder church attendance is declining if parishes cannot even accurately advertise the set services!

If you've read Leslie Francis's survey of rural churches (written some 20 years ago), you will discover that this is an all-too-frequent occurrence. In his opinion, it happens when the members start regarding church as their own private club, and forget that it ought to face outward into the community. (Hard to do, perhaps, if you have only had one visitor in the last 5 years!)
Posts: 9568 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, that report made alarming reading, but felt very familiar ... I live in a town but semi-rural and rural areas are quite close and village churches are struggling.

The only ones that aren't, it seems to me, are those where people have decamped from nearby towns in order to escape drum'n'bass on the one hand or content-lite forms of cafeteria 'catholicism' (in the Anglican sense) on the other.

I can think of a few medieval parish churches in tiny villages where the congregations have been swelled by refugees from nearby towns. The further out into the sticks you get, the less that happens.

Overall, I think Baptist Trainfan is right about the more didactic nature of non-conformist worship - and I don't object to that myself - it's one of its strengths ...

However, it can get a bit 'identikit' ... I well remember a service I attended in a Baptist church years ago now where the bloke leading the service - not a minister - had carefully selected the hymns to outline a point he wanted to make about the Trinity.

He introduced the final hymn with, 'We've had the Father and the Son, now we've got a hymn about God the Holy Spirit ...'

Fair enough, at least it was soundly Trinitarian (which isn't true for all Baptists, nor for all Anglicans either, I'm afraid) ... but it came across as a lecture with hymns attached ...

There is a balance, of course. Some of those traditions which emphasise mystery and transcendence don't actually explain anything ...

Our vicar seems to feel the need to explain everything and whatever the service it takes on a 'stop/start' feel as he breaks in to explain this, that or the other ... even where no explanation is required.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15694 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools