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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Lost in a liturgical desert
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Well, I'm happy to be corrected on this, and I may have expressed myself clumsily, but I had understood- from postings by Jengie and others over the years- that Reformed churches take very seriously the role of the minister as the planner and shaper of worship week by week. In fact, ISTR Jengie actually saying something to the effect that the Reformed tradition expected every minister to be his/ her own liturgist, though again I'm happy to be corrected if I've misremembered.
Now, it would seem to me that if that is the case, one of the things that the minister would need to remember to do is to work closely and in good time with whoever is responsible for the music to ensure that the worship works in every respect.
That's all I meant and if I have misunderstood what Reformed clergy do, please put me right.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Yes but if you do not have a rota and preachers do not stick to a lectionary then things can be very different.
Fair enough. It's probably a denominational difference because you said that in your experience "most clerics" have little or no regard for others taking part in the service. My experience is the complete opposite - most clergy I know do take this sort of thing seriously and most churches I know have a rota so that those doing the readings know well in advance what they are doing and at every church I've been involved in, the music has been chosen on a monthly basis too.
[ 20. April 2015, 07:32: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Albertus' post makes a lot of sense. I plan the services each week and - unlike my Anglican colleagues - basically start out with a "blank sheet" every Monday morning! I think, too, it is important note that Reformed liturgy is very much sermon-centred; this means that the liturgy develops alongside the sermon and everything is joined together thematically. It also means that it is difficult to finalise hymns and other elements of the service until the sermon has reached something near to its final form. This simply can't happen a month in advance if the sermon is to have any reference to current events, even if one is following the Lectionary.
Of course I do not invent every prayer or other component "from scratch" - but it may take a long time to search out exactly the right bits to use. Websites such as "The Text This Week" and "Roots" can be very helpful, as well as one's own library and Internet searches. Yesterday I was preaching on "The Common Good" and included a short video from Jim Wallis.
Parallel to this process I choose a long-list of hymns - possibly two or three suggestions for each - which I send to my music director for comment. We will bat these back and forth a bit until we arrive at the final list, taking into account genres of music, familiarity etc. This can be a bit tricky as we have somewhat different ideas on church music! The MD chooses the anthem according to season, choir availability etc. - I may make a suggestion sometimes but it's basically up to him. Our MD is not present at our evening service so there the choice is mine alone.
This whole process takes time! My absolute deadline for concluding it is Thursday afternoon (although I sometimes get there earlier) as that is when the list of hymns, reading, together with any congregational responses and any "hymns not in the book", has to be given to the editor of our Sunday notice-sheet, and readers can be told their passages. We've given up on rotas for readers as we can never get them to work!
Finally, an apology to Albertus: I misread your post as saying that every member, not every minister, regards themselves as a liturgist in the Reformed tradition - this gave me the idea that every member of the congregation would be strongly expressing their liturgical preferences. That would lead to anarchy!
[ 20. April 2015, 07:46: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On the 'bored rigid' thing, that cuts all sorts of ways. I know people who would find an how of happy-clappy praise and worship choruses as the ultimate in bored rigidity ... whereas others would be in seventh heaven at the prospect.
Conversely, what bores the bum of some people in terms of liturgical/sacramental worship feels like bliss to others ...
It all depends on the starting point and the position from which we approach these things. I find golf intensely boring and don't understand how anyone can watch it. Others think it's marvellous.
I daresay, if I could be arsed to spend the time and effort understanding the subtle nuances of golf, I might begin to appreciate its appeal. That doesn't necessarily imply that I would then begin to be an avid watcher/follower of the various tournaments.
I recognise that this is subjective territory and I'm not making any value judgement on people who find whatever kind of worship service 'boring' ... but I'm always tempted to ask those who complain of boredom to state what they would find less boring and more compelling in a church service ...
I mean, what are they actually looking for? Good coffee? Singalongable songs? No songs? Music. No music?
Do they want 3D films on a multiscreen projector?
Do they want a hand-job below the pews?
I mean, I'm sorry to be crude ... but what do they actually want?
Actually, it's the kids I find are most bored. I've asked them what they actually want. Not to be there is the answer.
As for me - I find the stereotypical happy clappy as dull, albeit in a different way, as the stiffest high-end rigid liturgy - in both cases I find myself a spectator, seeing something that other people are doing but which, whilst I can go through the motions with them, I am not part of. Hard to define why or in what manner. Fortunately I've found a place where I actually feel part of it, but (a) we're pretty unusual, and (b) half the denizens of Eccles would probably run screaming to the Bishop to have us put down.
So perhaps that's the answer to the "what do you want?" question - it's not so much a matter of style as a matter of not feeling that I actually belong.
[ 20. April 2015, 08:27: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
As a member of BT's church, I ought to comment that the system he has described above works really well, and is a testament to all the hard work and planning he puts in each week.
I think its true to say that I've never before belonged to a church where regular worship involves coordinating so many people (some with very different opinions on subjects such as music), incorporating some new ideas, developing interesting themes, yet is almost invariably 'joined up', seamless, dignified, and the very opposite of stale.
As far as the readings are concerned, due to lack of a rota, what generally happens is that you get a phonecall from the coordinator sometime on Saturday, to say 'are you going to be at church tomorrow - will you read for us please?' Seems to work OK.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I think most of us would be fans of Baptist Trainfan, Gracious Rebel, if we went to his church ...
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Meanwhile, @Karl Liberal Backslider ... well yes, I can appreciate what you're saying. I don't particularly feel I 'belong' anywhere either. There are certain styles of worship I feel more comfortable with these days than ever I used to - and I have no desire to go back to standard happy-clappy which was where I was at for a good while ...
But even if I found somewhere which was Seventh Heaven in terms of liturgy/worship etc then there'd be something else that was going to rankle or bite me on the backside ... that's life, that's simply the way it is. It's because we're all people and people are involved.
The trick is to negotiate our way through all that as far as we possibly can.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Got it there in a nutshell, Gamaliel. Those of us who have spent years as 'the professional' in charge of liturgy probably find it worst, when we retire, because we notice things that others don't, or at least don't let niggle them. I suspect the reason many of us retired priests are glad of the offer of a (regular or occasional) 'altar' is not just because of a spiritual imperative to exercise our priesthood, but because we can be in control to some extent of what goes on.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
As for me - I find the stereotypical happy clappy as dull, albeit in a different way, as the stiffest high-end rigid liturgy - in both cases I find myself a spectator, seeing something that other people are doing but which, whilst I can go through the motions with them, I am not part of. Hard to define why or in what manner. Fortunately I've found a place where I actually feel part of it, but (a) we're pretty unusual, and (b) half the denizens of Eccles would probably run screaming to the Bishop to have us put down.
I'm with you there Karl. I think for me the difference would be that a strongly liturgical church, provided it was using the 'official' liturgy and not the vicar's bright ideas, would not repel as much as somewhere which was deliberately trying to manipulate me into conformity with a particular theology or mood. It might not be 'me', exactly, but at least it wouldn't be the vicar, or the worship leaders, implying 'it's all about me'.
I'm slowly growing into feeling at home in a church which is very different in style from what I am used to. I do now 'feel part of it', and it nourishes a large part of my soul, but I need a 'Heineken church' from time to time to reach the parts that doesn't reach.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Wow. Wisdom, like June, seems to be bustin' out all over.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
...Finally, an apology to Albertus: I misread your post as saying that every member, not every minister, regards themselves as a liturgist in the Reformed tradition - this gave me the idea that every member of the congregation would be strongly expressing their liturgical preferences. That would lead to anarchy!
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
<snip>Actually, it's the kids I find are most bored. I've asked them what they actually want. Not to be there is the answer.
IME things are all right after hitting 3 until about 10/11 (assuming there is some kind of provision for children so they don't have to sit through a sermon). After that children want "Not to be there" for many other things that adults do as well as corporate worship. Sometime around 17/18+ things settle down again.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Well, I'm happy to be corrected on this, and I may have expressed myself clumsily, but I had understood- from postings by Jengie and others over the years- that Reformed churches take very seriously the role of the minister as the planner and shaper of worship week by week. In fact, ISTR Jengie actually saying something to the effect that the Reformed tradition expected every minister to be his/ her own liturgist, though again I'm happy to be corrected if I've misremembered.
Now, it would seem to me that if that is the case, one of the things that the minister would need to remember to do is to work closely and in good time with whoever is responsible for the music to ensure that the worship works in every respect.
That's all I meant and if I have misunderstood what Reformed clergy do, please put me right.
Fair enough, and my apologies if I read more into your post than what you were saying.
It is true that in the Reformed tradition, the minister is responsible for things that in an Anglican Church would be provided by the established liturgy—the words of certain prayers, etc. Among Presbyterians (at least the PC(USA)), there is a shared responsibility between the Session and the minister, where the minister has the last word on some things, the Session on others, and the minister and Session jointly on still others. The minister always has the authority to decide the Scripture readings, though in the PC(USA) at least, the vast majority of ministers follow the lectionary.
In practice though, I'm not sure this makes much of a difference to the point being discussed—choosing hymns. The rector at the nearby Episcopal church chooses the hymns just like the minister at my church does. To the extent there's any desire by either cleric to coordinate one or more hymns with a sermon/homily, planning ahead is important.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Among Presbyterians (at least the PC(USA)), there is a shared responsibility between the Session and the minister, where the minister has the last word on some things, the Session on others, and the minister and Session jointly on still others.
The Basis of Union of the (British) United Reformed Church states that it the legal duty of the Elders (not the Minister) "to see that public worship is regularly offered and the sacraments are duly administered".
Of course in practice (unless the church is in Vacancy) the Minister actually devises and leads the worship. But the Elders have justification in pulling him/her up if things are not being done as they should. In extreme cases this could, I suppose, include the choosing of hymns, if it's always being done on an ad hoc, last minute basis.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
[QUOTE] In practice though, I'm not sure this makes much of a difference to the point being discussed—choosing hymns. The rector at the nearby Episcopal church chooses the hymns just like the minister at my church does. To the extent there's any desire by either cleric to coordinate one or more hymns with a sermon/homily, planning ahead is important.
The Rector chooses our hymns, and rightly so. They are part of the liturgy and in an Anglican church, that is the responsibility of the rector. Our's does so having regard to the lectionary readings for the day of course, as the sermon is based on those also. He (always "he" still in Sydney, alas) will do so in consultation with the choir director, and takes into account his knowledge of what is popular with the congregation - and most importantly, what the congregation can sing. But we would never have the ultimate choice left to organist or choir director. It's not the job of either.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
I have been out of the professional ministry for well over 20 years and it still gets me how sloppy people chancel prance--what we used to call it in seminary.
That said, I like balanced liturgies which tend to use new chants but follow the traditional order. The congregation I attend will change its liturgy about every six months. We are currently using Christ, the Light of the World, written by Marty Haugen. During Eastertide we will go to a Trinity Mass which was written by a former member.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, we did Palm Sunday today more-or-less by the Common Worship book. No priest was available, so we had Communion from the Reserved Sacrament, but apart from that we had the Palm Gospel, Procession (out in the street, as it's such a beautiful day), Passion Gospel with the congo joining in, suitable intercessions, and some nice hymns.
Even though we are a small congregation (ASA 30-35) with few resources (like the one Angloid described early in the thread), we still try to do things in as seemly and edifying a way as possible, even though some of it may actually be made up on the hoof...
So, a fair start to Holy Week. Attendance was a bit low, but at least three families are away on holiday. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
We aim to do the Maundy Thursday Eucharist gathered around the altar in our spacious chancel, as we only get a dozen or so for this service, but we still have the Procession to the Altar of Repose, and a Watch of Prayer until Compline at 1030pm. The 12 noon Liturgy on Good Friday includes the Passion Gospel, Veneration of the Cross, Solemn Collects, and Communion from the Reserved Sacrament. Our visiting priest has offered, bless him, to stay on afterwards to hear Confessions, if required.
We don't now have our own Easter Vigil, but we preface the Easter Sunday Eucharist with the Blessing of the Easter Garden, followed by the Blessing and Lighting of the new Paschal Candle...
...and on Easter Sunday afternoon, we put our feet up...though personally, I would like us to have a short evening Eucharist for them as what really can'tbe there in the morning...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I know we are lucky compared to priestless congregations in many countries (or even Bishop's Finger's parish – hope that was just a temporary blip). So I shouldn't moan.
But why should one church, otherwise providing the full Holy Week menu, decide that the Good Friday Liturgy should be replaced by Stations of the Cross? I can't understand this as I've always been taught that the Triduum is really one liturgy in three parts - missing out one of them (arguably and literally the crucial one) is weird.
As for the Easter Vigil, I can understand parishes who put all their eggs (literally) into the Easter morning basket. But not those who begin the Vigil liturgy well before sunset. Or who have a truncated liturgy doing a coitus interruptus before the Eucharist. Or who imply that to celebrate the Vigil is too much bother and only worthwhile for 'those who like that sort of thing.'
If any of these aberrations were caused by shortage of clergy or congregations without resources, I would be more forgiving. In those cases, anyway, it should be quite possible for adjoining parishes to share resources and allow the church's celebration of Christ's victory to take place. I suspect part of the problem are clergy who prioritise 'evangelism' as if it had nothing to do with the central activity of the church. Good liturgy is good evangelism.
Rant over!
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Re lack of priests this morning, we've just gone into interregnum, and, despite our Churchwarden's best endeavours, no-one could be found for today...we are restricted, alas, to male priests only... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
This is only the second Sunday since February when this has happened, though. Our two Blue-Scarfed Menaces (i.e. myself and my fellow-Reader) therefore shared the ministry between us.
We don't have a Vigil of our own (it's hard enough to get a congregation for Easter Sunday morning) but we do share in that provided by a neighbouring parish.
I see Angloid's point re the Triduum, though, and tried in my very brief homily today to make the same point that the services are parts of a whole.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I don’t think that the ‘full Holy Week menu’ has ever caught on in the C of E.
Because Cranmer stripped everything way, many clergy enjoyed the opportunity to play at being free church by providing titbits like slide shows, stations, sunrise services etc.
When we introduced the revised Roman rituals in the late 1960s, Good Friday never really caught on because of a prejudiced against receiving Communion on that day. Ditto the Easter Vigil for fear of ‘jumping the gun’ for Easter Communion.
People no longer come every Sunday so it’s unusual for them to be inclined to attend 3 weekdays in a row, despite all our teaching them. (Younger clergy simply don’t get it either – they tend to offer what attracts the most punters).
We’ve managed to hold the line here but a crack has appeared in the way we do Good Friday – we do the full Liturgy in one church but they have a ‘last hour’ meditation at the other church – you can choose – pick and mix.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Cranmer may well have 'stripped away' most of the Holy Week traditions. But his intention appeared to be that the church should still celebrate it, albeit in a highly simplified form. He provided that St John's passion should be read on Good Friday.
I am still amazed at the number of churches (or rather clergy persons) who fail to ensure that this – surely minimal and essential ingredient - is part of their Good Friday worship.
Often compounded when they ignore the Passion on Palm Sunday because they think it's all about the donkey.
And then people like Archbishop Sentamu lament general ignorance about the message of Holy Week and Easter. Not surprising when even churchpeople (even devout churchpeople) don't engage with it.
[ 10. April 2017, 17:34: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
In the parish where I live the marked Palm Sunday with something called an All-Age Passion Play: a horrified attendee tells me it was home-written and consisted of following the disciples from the Garden of Gethsemane and then imagining what they were feeling over the next 3 days. No mention of cross or crucifixion, only that the disciples were worried that Jesus was being 'punished' and that the Romans were 'cruel'.
For Good Friday they have a Family Activity Service - no details but last year this was when they made their Easter Garden.
All of this is Vicar-led and they are a non-residentiary Canon of our cathedral. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Often compounded when they ignore the Passion on Palm Sunday because they think it's all about the donkey.
May I gently object to that comment? On Palm Sunday I concentrate on the story of the day, because I don't want to get to the Passion yet - it's simply too soon. But I most certainly don't think, nor have I ever preached, that "it's all about the donkey".
However - and recognising that many of my people will not (for whatever reason) not be in church on Good Friday, and thus lose the heights and depths of the Easter story - I most definitely will make it very clear that we have now entered a week which can only have one ending; and that over the exuberant praises of Palm Sunday looms the impending shadow of the Cross.
[ 11. April 2017, 12:03: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In the parish where I live the marked Palm Sunday with something called an All-Age Passion Play: a horrified attendee tells me it was home-written and consisted of following the disciples from the Garden of Gethsemane and then imagining what they were feeling over the next 3 days.
Is the attender's horror due to (i) the poor quality of home-written drama; or (ii) an apparent "dumbing down" of the Passion story; or (iii) the feeling that there should have been "proper services" which used traditional liturgy?
And to what extent did (and do) these activities involve and teach families and children who may not have any other contact with the church and, indeed, our Faith? Would they have come along to an "ordinary" service?
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
BT makes a good point. Whilst I think it's relatively easy to involve youngsters in the Palm Sunday liturgy, and a dramatized form of the Passion is by no means a Bad Idea in itself, Good Friday is quite another matter.
A couple of local churches have a young-family-oriented service or 'workshop' in the morning, with a more solemn service (not necessarily the full-blown Liturgy) in the afternoon, which system presumably works for them. Our Place can't quite rise to that at the moment, but we did have a simple form of Stations of the Cross at our most recent 'Crafty Church' (a monthly event aimed mainly at the 7-12 age range). I understand it was well-received, and that the children took an interested and active part.
I still think it's right to have both Palm and Passion themes on Palm Sunday, though we are fortunate in usually getting (for us) a reasonable turn-out on Good Friday.
BTW, I think Angloid's comment about the donkey referred to the practice at some churches of having a donkey lead the Palm Sunday procession. The donkey therefore tends, alas, to become what people remember about the day, rather than Our Lord's entry into Jerusalem, and his subsequent passion. A trivialisation of the event, perhaps, but YMMV.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Bishops Finger puts his finger on it. Apologies to Baptist Trainfan, but I was not in any way criticising you for being faithful to your own tradition. And I don't expect Baptists or any sort of bible-focussed Christian to miss the point. As you explain, it is perfectly possible to focus on the triumphal entry and at the same time preach about the cross. The people who miss the point are a certain sort of Anglican who tend to see liturgy as a form of entertainment, and are only too happy to ignore the requirements of the liturgy to that end.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Cranmer may well have 'stripped away' most of the Holy Week traditions. But his intention appeared to be that the church should still celebrate it, albeit in a highly simplified form. He provided that St John's passion should be read on Good Friday.
Indeed - but until the 1960s it was rare for a 'communion service' to be celebrated in the evening, so lots of anglican churches offered these aliturgical titbits like stations around 7.30pm.
These pratictices were quite entrenched by the time (about 1965) that the Joint Liturgical Group advocated a liturgical holy weeek - so there was lots of competition.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, and there were many churches - The Con-Evo Church Of My Yoof, for one - where the renewed Holy Week services never caught on. AFAIK, they still haven't...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Bishops Finger puts his finger on it. Apologies to Baptist Trainfan, but I was not in any way criticising you for being faithful to your own tradition.
No problem -
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Baptist Trainfan quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In the parish where I live the marked Palm Sunday with something called an All-Age Passion Play: a horrified attendee tells me it was home-written and consisted of following the disciples from the Garden of Gethsemane and then imagining what they were feeling over the next 3 days. quote:
Is the attender's horror due to (i) the poor quality of home-written drama; or (ii) an apparent "dumbing down" of the Passion story; or (iii) the feeling that there should have been "proper services" which used traditional liturgy? And to what extent did (and do) these activities involve and teach families and children who may not have any other contact with the church and, indeed, our Faith? Would they have come along to an "ordinary" service?
The horror was multi-faceted: the home-written bit was dire - as in rhyming couplets as from a cheap greetings card (I've since met 2 others who share this opinion) - and as for 'dumbing-down', one of those present likened it to a badly bowdlerised version of parts of Monty Python's Life of Brian. As for whether or not there should have been a 'proper service' liturgy, since most people there were expecting communion and a sermon, along with the Passion Gospel reading, and at no time beforehand was the absence of these elements mentioned, I'd say that expecting a 'traditional' liturgy was valid.
As for reaching or teaching people not normally there about 'our' faith: they didn't see anyone there who wouldn't have been present normally - in fact numbers around here are down because many schools broke up last Friday. And since the incumbent didn't advertise this 'passion play' its unlikely there were people there beyond the usual.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Stejjie
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# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The horror was multi-faceted: the home-written bit was dire - as in rhyming couplets as from a cheap greetings card (I've since met 2 others who share this opinion) - and as for 'dumbing-down', one of those present likened it to a badly bowdlerised version of parts of Monty Python's Life of Brian.
I do have a theory there's a kind of Dunning-Kruger effect that afflicts clergy/ministers/preachers when it comes to poetry: we think we're Byron/Wordsworth/Shakespeare, when in reality we're Hallmark.
Sadly, I think I'm afflicted with this, as well.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Roses are red/Violets are blue/Jesus was nailed/To the cross just for you ?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Some quotes from the event referred to above (source found a script) quote:
His friends were tired, they'd had a long day
All were asleep when he was taken away.
Peter was angry, he felt guilty too,
He hoped he wasn't seen by someone he knew.
Spiritual nourishment, eh?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Dear Heavens, it doesn't even scan properly!
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
You wonder why I don't worship in my own parish (playing commitments allowing, of course)?
From taking over nearly 4 years ago the incumbent has managed to 'lose' 2/3rds of all SS work (no lack of children, just no one to do the work) and the youth club. Servers - a useful thing for children not inspired by SS or youth club - are a thing of the past and the choir has been disbanded.
All of this is taking place in a parish which sees steady population growth, particularly in families with children. On the other hand, nearby parishes with less favourable demographics are benefiting from the steady stream of 'refugees' - which is fine for those already committed to churchgoing, but what about those who aren't who are being turned-off, perhaps for ever?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Stejjie
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# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Roses are red/Violets are blue/Jesus was nailed/To the cross just for you ?
Genius, that - bl***y genius.
See what I mean?
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
I do have a theory there's a kind of Dunning-Kruger effect that afflicts clergy/ministers/preachers when it comes to poetry: we think we're Byron/Wordsworth/Shakespeare, when in reality we're Hallmark.
As good as that? I doubt it!
The same is true of family members who feel the poetic muse approaching them at funerals - it should be told to leave in no uncertain terms. (One exception: a poem written by the deceased to be read at her funeral.I braced myself for the horror - but it was simply magnificent).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Just be glad you weren't at this church over Easter:
Worth watching for the fire-extinguishing, although part of me wishes they'd let the set burn down:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d-NZaMPZbw&feature=share
Thanks for that. Even without the unintended extra pyrotechnics, that ought to win awards in any tackiest worship competition.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
... The same is true of family members who feel the poetic muse approaching them at funerals - it should be told to leave in no uncertain terms. (One exception: a poem written by the deceased to be read at her funeral.I braced myself for the horror - but it was simply magnificent).
Where I was growing up, people used to put these in their newspaper announcements. One of them contained the immortal words (and I suppose they are as I can still remember them after 50+ years).
"God was feeling lonely and a little bit sad,
So he sent down an angel and called up our Dad".
There's a plaque in Bath Abbey that has a suitable late C18 epitaph on the transience of life, that includes,
"And be not troubled if your friends,
Come suddenly unto their ends."
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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