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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What puts you off from setting foot inside a church?
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
It sounds to me like there is a considerable cultural expectation. In many parts of the US you're going to be vigorously greeted. At our church we'll even give you a coffee mug, and there was a period of time when they would stand there with an Ipad and enter in your email address.
I wonder if there is a racial/economic component? There was a famous story of a rector who dressed up like a homeless person and attended his own church. The greeters ignored him. And I have stepped into churches deep in the heart of the US where I have been certain that I am the only person of ethnicity within, oh, two hundred miles or so.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Erm ... I know what you mean, bu don't we all have ethnicity? For instance, I am British but born of German Jewish stock - which itself may have Russian antecedents.
To go back to welcoming! I don't think you can ever get it right, as people are so different. Some will recoil even at an outstretched hand and a "good morning", others will chat to everyone at coffee time and still complain about "that awful church where no-one talks to you". The best I think is simply that the greeters try to be as sensitive as possible to any visitors and note their body language.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I hate being vigorously greeted.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It sounds to me like there is a considerable cultural expectation. In many parts of the US you're going to be vigorously greeted. At our church we'll even give you a coffee mug, and there was a period of time when they would stand there with an Ipad and enter in your email address.
How do churches deal with situations where that will cause huge problems for people? Eg autistic children who really cannot cope with that kind of greeting - I specify children as many autistic adults would just avoid a church like that in the first place, whereas a child would be taken there. Certainly I (not autistic but have ADHD which causes similar sensory issues) wouldn't darken their door. Disabled access isn't just about ramps and accessible toilets, it's about caring for neurodivergent people too. Accosting people and asking for their email address (rather than having a slip of paper on the pew for people to fill out with their details if interested) is as exclusionary as not having a handrail.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I hate being vigorously greeted.
I'm not keen either ... but how does a welcomer know that when you or I come through the door? And how do they know if a person is desperately lonely and simply dying to talk to someone? That's why I think welcomers need to be people of great sensitivity, so they can quickly assess the "greeting needs" of every individual who comes through the church door.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It sounds to me like there is a considerable cultural expectation. In many parts of the US you're going to be vigorously greeted. At our church we'll even give you a coffee mug, and there was a period of time when they would stand there with an Ipad and enter in your email address.
If you stand at the door with a computer collecting email addresses, I'm going to give you a false email address and never come back, because it's easier than trying to explain why you're acting like arseholes. Or possibly you'll get a curt "No, thank you."
At our place, you'll find ushers inside the building, standing at the entrance to the nave. You'll get a friendly smile, a "Hello" or "Good Morning", and a service sheet. Any further interaction is up to you - if you have questions, we're happy to talk to you, but won't force anything on you.
We have a table set off to one side with information about the church, and there will be someone there who will happily take your email address if you want to get the newsletter, and will happily introduce you to people if you're new and want to join the choir / want to talk to other parents of small kids / etc. The presence of this table is announced before the service, but we won't drag you over to it.
Yes, of course it's cultural - there is considerable cultural variation in what passes for the default social behaviour. But there's a question that goes beyond culture, which is how well we accommodate people who aren't comfortable with whatever the local cultural norm is (whether it's visitors from somewhere with a different culture, people who have social anxieties, or whatever.)
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It sounds to me like there is a considerable cultural expectation. In many parts of the US you're going to be vigorously greeted. At our church we'll even give you a coffee mug, and there was a period of time when they would stand there with an Ipad and enter in your email address.
If you stand at the door with a computer collecting email addresses, I'm going to give you a false email address and never come back, because it's easier than trying to explain why you're acting like arseholes. Or possibly you'll get a curt "No, thank you."
At our place, you'll find ushers inside the building, standing at the entrance to the nave. You'll get a friendly smile, a "Hello" or "Good Morning", and a service sheet. Any further interaction is up to you - if you have questions, we're happy to talk to you, but won't force anything on you.
We have a table set off to one side with information about the church, and there will be someone there who will happily take your email address if you want to get the newsletter, and will happily introduce you to people if you're new and want to join the choir / want to talk to other parents of small kids / etc. The presence of this table is announced before the service, but we won't drag you over to it.
Yes, of course it's cultural - there is considerable cultural variation in what passes for the default social behaviour. But there's a question that goes beyond culture, which is how well we accommodate people who aren't comfortable with whatever the local cultural norm is (whether it's visitors from somewhere with a different culture, people who have social anxieties, or whatever.)
That sounds ideal to me, Leorning, and pretty much the standard for UK churches too as far as I can tell.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I thought the standard for UK churches was to have a sideperson at the door so engrossed in chatting to their friends that they turn their back on newcomers, leaves them to pick up the (wrong) book and service sheets and later bustles over to the pew where the visitor has sat down to tell them that they they'll have to move as Mrs. Jones has sat there every Sunday since 1934 and will not be happy to find someone taking her place.
All this encompassed by people turning round and glaring at the visitor who has dared to intrude their holy comfiness, and a Vicar who says, "We extend the usual warm welcome to visitors and hope that you will make yourselves known to us afterwards".
Plus a table festooned with last winter's Bible study notes, charity appeal leaflets, a couple of mugs that remain unsold from the Scouts' anniversary celebrations, and copies of a little duplicated leaflet (written by the last Vicar but three) describing the glories of the church and, in particular, the wonderful west window (destroyed in the gale of '87).
[ 11. July 2017, 16:04: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
And then the regulars, over coffee, telling each other "What a friendly church this is" standing in a circle with their backs to newcomers or anyone not in the gang.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
It sounds impossible to get it right! The main function of our greeters is to hand over the order of service. We hand over perhaps 60 to 70 in the space of 20 minutes, which doesn't leave a lot of time for staring down the path;but obviously this has happened to the person who has said that they find our path off-putting.
We do have an obvious side door, but it doesn't lead directly into the church but into the room where the choir gather before the service. It would be a bad choice for anyone hoping to slip in quietly.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Thinking of side doors ...
Like most Ministers, I stand at the church door after the service and shake hands with folk as they leave. In my last church, a month or two after I came, I bumped into one lady (not at church time) who alleged that I always ignored her. I expressed surprise and promised to do better.
A month or two later, she crossly told me that I still had failed to shake her hand! This surprised me ... until I found out that she always exited by the side door. Nevertheless, it was still my fault for not shaking her hand even though I was at the other end of the building ... ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
@NEQ: You've got it - it is totally impossible to get the welcome right for everyone! So one does one's best - and I think your church is doing pretty well!
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
The other issue is the general layout of the church. The bell tower collapsed in the late C18th, rendering the roof unsafe. The church was dismantled, and a new church built on the site of the old. Thus we have an early C19th church, accessed by a short path with C18th gravestones on either side of the path.
The main church door opens into a wide but shallow vestibule. This means that there is space for the greeters to stand at the open door, but if they repositioned themselves further in the vestibule they would be blocking the way.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
Our place has done a good deal of analysis about how layout/architecture affects welcoming feeling. Unfortunately the sensation of being welcoming varies a lot, and fixing stuff costs mucho money. But, at the minimum, it was felt that enough parking, not having to push your way through the entire choir as they line up to process in, not having a plethora of signs that say "No Entry" and "Do Not Enter", would help.
Other cheap and simple things were: putting lawn chairs or Adirondack chairs out on the lawn under the trees in the summer; setting up a beanbag toss on the grass for the little ones so they can run off their energy after sitting through the service; having a table for coffee/lemonade/water.
My current idea is resurfacing the parking lot, which at the moment resembles the Lunar surface.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
not having a plethora of signs that say "No Entry" and "Do Not Enter", would help.
And also having a clear indication of where to go. I've been in some church buildings where it's really unclear where you're supposed to go, because the architecture of the building doesn't lead you to the nave, but instead dumps you at a welcome desk, or perhaps a coffee shop.
(It's not just churches. Our local mosque is a maze.)
So if the architecture doesn't help you, you almost have to have the aggressive greeter posse, if only to show people where to go.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
It's trying to look at what's happening with the eyes of a visitor - not easy if you're there every week.
When I was candidating for my last church, I visited them one Thursday lunchtime when they held their "Open Church" event. Naturally I went to the front door, but it was barred and bolted. Fortunately I already knew that there was a hall round the back; even there there was no obvious way in, but I pulled a door and it opened.
When I mentioned this to the lady in charge, her response was "But everybody knows where to go" and she couldn't see that there was a problem. In my time we put clear signs on the doors!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I once tried to enter a local church for Sunday worship and couldn't open the door. I gave up and left. Realised later in the week that it was the wrong door, but only because I could see people walking in to participate in some event.
I've still never attended that church.
[ 12. July 2017, 16:41: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I don't blame you! It's not exactly rocket science to indicate to visitors where the entrance actually is.....
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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BabyWombat
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# 18552
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Posted
Well, to cite the contrary, something that actually attracted me. Whilst on a drive up the north shore of the St. Lawrence river en route to Quebec City one Sunday morning, I noticed that every town we went through had a Catholic church, and on the steps of each church stood the priest, fully vested, greeting his congregation as they gathered.
Since that morning I have tried to do the same. Greeters and Ushers and the like are fine folk and necessary, but there’s nothing like having the “big wig” standing about to say good morning as you arrive. I have an hour to kill between early service and late, and our little shack has a wide porch out front. In fine summer weather I drag one of the rocking chairs from the narthex and sit, vested at least in my alb,, reading (usually Mary Oliver poetry.) Passers-by stop to chat…. Perhaps some day they’ll pop in.
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
It sounds impossible to get it right! The main function of our greeters is to hand over the order of service. We hand over perhaps 60 to 70 in the space of 20 minutes, which doesn't leave a lot of time for staring down the path;but obviously this has happened to the person who has said that they find our path off-putting.
We do have an obvious side door, but it doesn't lead directly into the church but into the room where the choir gather before the service. It would be a bad choice for anyone hoping to slip in quietly.
But why can't your greeters stand inside the church, and have the door open (adverse weather excepted)? I just cannot see why they need to be outside.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Around here it would be folly to leave the door open. Tomorrow the temperature will hit 100 degrees; doors are kept shut to keep the treasured and costly air conditioning inside. There's a couple months of the year when you might do it, but then comes November through March, when you want to keep the treasured and costly heat inside. Leave the doors open and you get a universal howl of execration.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I'm not sure about church layouts elsewhere, but our church has the standard Church of Scotland layout; the main door opens into the vestibule. The stairs up to the gallery, and the doors into the church lead off from the vestibule. So I'm not clear what you mean by "inside the church", Pomona? If you mean "inside the vestibule" there's not a lot of space. If you mean "inside the worship area" we'd then need three greeters; one at the top of the stairs to the gallery, one at the choir-side aisle, one at the pulpit-side aisle.
Brenda, the church itself is well heated on chilly days, but the vestibule isn't. The doors from the vestibule into the church remain shut (apart from people going through them, obviously) so losing heat through the open main door isn't an issue. It is never warm enough for us to want to keep the heat out!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
we'd then need three greeters; one at the top of the stairs to the gallery, one at the choir-side aisle, one at the pulpit-side aisle.
How about having greeters only at the two side aisles, leaving the gallery stairs greeter-free for folks who prefer not to be greeted?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
How about just letting NEQ's greeters get on with the good job they seem to be doing?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I like some of Brenda's low-cost solutions to providing a welcoming environment, some of which might not be practical in Cold Northerly Parts, but any church would do well to consider such matters.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
I like the notion of clergy buy-in, which is clearly essential. If your welcoming and greeting isn't supported from the pulpit it's useless. Our rector takes care, at the beginning of the service, to welcome any visitors and mention the lemonade, child care, etc. He announces this from the front; it's also printed in the service leaflet and if the weather allows another public invitation is made just before the final benediction, inviting everyone out front to drink lemonade. Not only does this get the word out to every new person in the pew (including the sneak-in-early people and the arrive-just-before-the-sermon folks), but it sets the example for the troops.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Clergy encouragement is Good, but there is a school of thought which holds that those about to lead worship should spend some time immediately before the service in prayer and recollection. This would debar them from being at the door (or outside it) greeting people just before the service begins. At Our Place, this wouldn't matter too much, given that we have been known to begin the Eucharist with less than a dozen people in church (the other dozen-and-a-half arriving anytime between the last verse of the opening hymn, and the homily).
IMHO, there should indeed be a short greeting and welcome from the priest immediately after the opening invocation ('In the Name of the Father etc.'), and also if (as Our Lord and His Blessed Mother intended) there is a brief time of announcements before the Blessing.
It's Not Good to leave too much of greeting/welcome/invitation to coffee to the priest - this is where the laity should be active (but not overwhelming)!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
How about having greeters only at the two side aisles, leaving the gallery stairs greeter-free for folks who prefer not to be greeted?
Sorry, I can't help it. As people would need to know how their worship could be a greeter free experience, there'd have to be a notice at the entrance to tell stranger how not to get welcomed.
I find the idea bizarre of a notice saying, "If you do not want anyone to greet you or speak to you, go an sit upstairs". ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
You might, but I'd genuinely appreciate that.
You gregarious types don't know how much hard work people are
[ 13. July 2017, 17:08: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Indeed, though I suspect Miss Amanda may have had her tongue in her cheek.....I hope....
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
If Miss Amanda had her choice of Door No. 1, where an effusive greeter was glad-handing and back-slapping everyone who approached; or Door No. 2, where no greeter was stationed, she's most likely choose Door No. 2.
But if someone were stationed at Door No. 3 who was simply handing out service leaflets, smiling, and saying "Good morning," she'd choose Door No. 3.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Why all the obsession with meet-and-greet? Surely its just as important for the person who takes the service to stand by the door as people leave? Its certainly what I'm used to in the CofE.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Perhaps, perhaps not.
1. First impressions do count - especially for folk who are unfamiliar with the building.
2. Some folk would, I suspect, prefer to meet someone on the way in than feel they "had to" talk to the Vicar afterwards.
3. Even in the CofE. there are usually sidespeople dishing out books etc. (If there aren't there should be: I have been to churches where there are simply several piles of books and leaflets left on a table, and ended up taking the wrong ones and having to go back to change them when the service starts!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Why all the obsession with meet-and-greet? Surely its just as important for the person who takes the service to stand by the door as people leave? Its certainly what I'm used to in the CofE.
At our place, there are three doors between the nave and the rest of the building - central double doors, and smaller side doors at the ends of the side aisles.
After the service, a line forms in the central aisle to talk to the priest. Anyone who is in a hurry, or doesn't want to speak to the priest, can leave by a side door.
This has a lot to recommend it, but it is of course rather constrained by your architecture.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And all the side people and extra attendance is predicated on having enough bodies in the gap. It's all volunteers, of course -- you're not paying these greeters. If there aren't enough people to do this, there aren't. Especially at summer services (when everybody's gone off to the shore or to visit family) or the oddball services (Friday night prayers, Wednesday morning Eucharist) it's difficult to muster the volunteers.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Read, with interest, how the church sometimes shoots itself in the foot. My own congregation did this 40 years ago. A landowner donated 20 acres for the congregation, no problem that it was three blocks off a main thoroughfare. It was cheap.
Then they orient the building to overlook then existing wheat fields so that you have to literally go around (what seems) the back of the church to find the main entrance.
We have worked hard to overcome these obstacles but the point, when siting a church, is location a matters. Location, Location, Location.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Then they orient the building to overlook then existing wheat fields so that you have to literally go around (what seems) the back of the church to find the main entrance.
Architecture seems to be surprisingly hard, as demonstrated by any number of obviously bone-headed choices that people seem to make. And architects know not to make the stupid choices, yet nevertheless end up doing so.
I imagine it must just be that there are a large number of details to get right, and it's easy to overlook something.
(And that's before the client shoves his oar in...)
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Why all the obsession with meet-and-greet? Surely its just as important for the person who takes the service to stand by the door as people leave? Its certainly what I'm used to in the CofE.
At our place, there are three doors between the nave and the rest of the building - central double doors, and smaller side doors at the ends of the side aisles.
After the service, a line forms in the central aisle to talk to the priest. Anyone who is in a hurry, or doesn't want to speak to the priest, can leave by a side door.
This has a lot to recommend it, but it is of course rather constrained by your architecture.
As someone who doesn't really want to be greeted, this is where the world of the tiny village church suits me down to the ground.
Our place has got one door which, when opened, pretty much has the back wall running down the left hand side, and the back of the rear pew the right. You can't really do anything other than go straight on to the nave, picking up the paperwork as you go.
Of course, being a village, we do have the issue of pew protectionism (saying that, I've been there just under 2 years and have been assimilated to the extent that I now always sit in the same place too). OTOH, the congregation are exactly the same people that I see in our one pub, or just walking around the two lanes that comprise the entire village.
We do get visitors though - there's a popular canal wharf at the bottom of the village, so people drift in through the summer months in search of the quintessential village church experience (TM). I've got no idea if they like it or not, but there's usually a bottle of wine going round after the service so they tend to stay.
We don't have "greeters" (we don't really have anything, no choir even), but one of the churchwardens or congregation will sort you out if you don't know what you're doing. We're still old school enough for the vicar to leg it to the door at the end to shake the hands of those filing out before returning to chat to those that are staying for the social bit.
Overall though I suppose you can be a bit more free and easy with a regular congregation of about 17 and 1-2 visitors a month...
[ 14. July 2017, 08:19: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
I suppose where we do score better though is the complete lack of horror stories about newcomers being pressured to join things or get involved. Its a tiny village - if you were new to the area then we'd *know* already - the jungle drums would have already identified whose house you'd moved into (from a total knowledge of precisely which houses are even available), probably what your name is, who you live with and what you do for a living.
Consequently, random people appearing in church *can't* be new to the village so won't get tapped up. Couple to that the fact that we've passed a resolution that anyone who wants to be on the PCC etc can be and there's literally no pressure to do anything unless you want to even if it does look like you might stick around.
In some ways, it's very Ambridge. In others though, it's perfect for those like me who are a bit more anxious/reticent.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Read, with interest, how the church sometimes shoots itself in the foot. My own congregation did this 40 years ago. A landowner donated 20 acres for the congregation, no problem that it was three blocks off a main thoroughfare. It was cheap.
Then they orient the building to overlook then existing wheat fields so that you have to literally go around (what seems) the back of the church to find the main entrance.
We have worked hard to overcome these obstacles but the point, when siting a church, is location a matters. Location, Location, Location.
Did it have to be designed so that the right end faced east, or is that a CofE quirk?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Gramps49:
quote:
the point, when siting a church, is location matters. Location, Location, Location.
The site of ours was chosen sometime in the C7th to be accessible to monks travelling down river by coracle, as the surrounding area was thickly forested and contained wolves and wild boar.
Today, you can still travel to our church without worrying about wolves, and you could still tie up a coracle. There's no car parking, though.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Having the east end facing east is not exactly a C of E quirk, as many churches so oriented were built before the C of E existed, and/or in other countries! It's a long-standing tradition, at least in Western Europe, but I can think of several local 19thC Anglican churches, built to fit a particular site, where the liturgical east end does not face east.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Today, you can still ... tie up a coracle.
Is there a pay-and-display machine for timed parking? ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I worked once with a guy who was on the vestry of St. Peter's in Haymarket, VA. Since he knew I'm good with words he had me look over the church leaflet. This was the thing we have all seen in the rack near the door, describing the history of the building, the windows, etc. I marked the sentence mentioning that the building had been a hospital during the War of Northern Aggression. This is a deeply contentious Confederate term (you can google on it) for what most Americans know as the Civil War. I pointed out that, since Haymarket was becoming suburbanized and that the church would want to be welcoming to new young families, they might want to adjust that sentence. He replied that they could not. The church parking lot was owned by an old lady who still believed in Marse Robert, and had not yet surrendered at Appomattox. If the wording was changed she'd fence off the lot; they had to wait for her to die (the land was left to the church in her will) before rewriting.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If the wording was changed she'd fence off the lot; they had to wait for her to die (the land was left to the church in her will) before rewriting.
And even then she'd probably came back as a ghost and haunt it, possibly letting the air out of Yankee cars' tires.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This was all more than ten years ago, so the odds are good that she's gone to her reward and the church has rewritten the leaflet.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Only ten years for a church to rewrite its welcome leaflet? Be realistic!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Having the east end facing east is not exactly a C of E quirk, as many churches so oriented were built before the C of E existed, and/or in other countries! It's a long-standing tradition, at least in Western Europe, but I can think of several local 19thC Anglican churches, built to fit a particular site, where the liturgical east end does not face east.
IJ
Orientation is the standard for Orthodox churches. Most churches that aren't east-facing are buildings purchased from Protties and converted to Orfie use.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Why all the obsession with meet-and-greet? Surely its just as important for the person who takes the service to stand by the door as people leave? Its certainly what I'm used to in the CofE.
At our place, there are three doors between the nave and the rest of the building - central double doors, and smaller side doors at the ends of the side aisles.
After the service, a line forms in the central aisle to talk to the priest. Anyone who is in a hurry, or doesn't want to speak to the priest, can leave by a side door.
This has a lot to recommend it, but it is of course rather constrained by your architecture.
A church near me is situated between a very affluent Victorian suburb, and an area of more ordinary housing. The church has a door on each side, although these days only one of them is used. I have it on good authority that the Vicar always used to stand by the 'posh people's' door after the service, and the curate at the other. Of course.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I was on welcome duty today, which gave me a chance to think about all the points raised here.
Firstly, the layout of the church. Our vestibule is the full width of the church, but only 5ft 6inches deep, with the railings on the side of the stairs going up to the gallery protruding a couple of inches into that. When the main doors are open they fold flat against the inside walls, narrowing it further to about 4ft 10inches. There's plenty of room to stand at the open doors, but if we stood just inside, so as not to be visible to people coming up the path, we'd be blocking the way. 4ft 10inches isn't really wide enough for two people to pass comfortably, especially if one is using a walking stick, as (I counted) seven of our congregation were.
It was raining gently today, which precluded standing outside and getting the Orders of Service wet.
As it's July and people are on holiday, we had a smaller than usual congregation. We'd usually have about 100, of whom about 80 would come in by the main door (the choir etc going in by the side door). Today we had only 63 entering by the main door, of whom 25 came in between 9.45 and 9.50, and 14 between 9.50 and 9.55. I think I could guarantee that anyone arriving around then would not find themselves being "watched" as they came up the path, as the greeters would be busy handing out the Orders of Service.
However, at 10am the greeters can hear the service starting. At this point, we are peering down the path to see if we can spot any latecomers, to decide whether we can go into church ourselves. I wonder if our unhappy complainant arrived bang on ten and felt they were being watched? I could imagine that would feel uncomfortable.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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