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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Giving up Jesus for Lent
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I cannot speak for rites apart from the Roman rite,but in these 1969 documents 'Passiontide' as such was suppressed.The Sunday before Easter,popularly called Palm Sunday was renamed as Passion Sunday.
The Easter Triduum begins with the Evening Mass of the Lord's Supper on Holy Thursday, reaches its high point at the Easter vigil on Holy Saturday and closes formally with Evening Prayer on Easter Sunday - 1.Thursday evening to Friday evenig 2.Friday evening to Saturday evening. 3.Saturday evening to Sunday evening.
Generally in the Roman rite Lent begins on Ash Wednesday.However Ash Wednesday is not a Holy day of Obligation and so one can say that Lent begins formally on the first Sunday in Lent.
(in Lent leaves it open as to whether it is 'of Lent')
Certainly Lent has been understood in many ways over the centuries.While based on the 40 days of fasting of Jesus,it can be understood in a number of different ways. Even the forty days can be seen as symbolic so I wouldn't bother too much about how or exactly why or indeed if there are exactly 40 days.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Thanks Nick Tamen and Forthview for the information you supply. There is a lot to look through and I will have to leave it and come back to it.
For now, I am tempted to ask, When does Easter begin? I thought I knew the answer - at the Easter Vigil.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Although it is generally clear in the Roman rite that preparations for Easter should have been completed BEFORE the Evening Mass of the Lord's Supper e.g. confessions made if wanted or needed,as the Paschal Triduum should be seen as three parts of the one action,namely the commemoration of the Passion,the Death and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Liturgically the faithful leave the church after the Holy Thursday liturgy IN SILENCE and return the next day for the second act of the drama in silence.The same again after the Good Friday liturgy and the beginning of the Holy Saturday liturgy.
The liturgy of Holy Saturday has now from the very beginning a festal character BUT it is a restrained festal character until the Gloria of the first Mass of the Resurrection.
We may say,if we wish ,that the period of Lent finishes before the beginning of the Paschal Triduum,but Good Friday remains still a day of fasting and abstinence.
The liturgy post Vatican 2 tries to remind us that everything is actually interconnected and every individual liturgical act is part of a whole.
Easter is a time of new life - resurrection,baptism,confirmation ,communion ,thanksgiving for the wonderful mystery of the eucharist and not arguing about the precise meaning of transubstantiation.
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Although it is generally clear in the Roman rite that preparations for Easter should have been completed BEFORE the Evening Mass of the Lord's Supper e.g. confessions made if wanted or needed,as the Paschal Triduum should be seen as three parts of the one action,namely the commemoration of the Passion,the Death and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Liturgically the faithful leave the church after the Holy Thursday liturgy IN SILENCE and return the next day for the second act of the drama in silence.The same again after the Good Friday liturgy and the beginning of the Holy Saturday liturgy.
The silence is very necessary. The Maundy Thursday service does not end with a procession but with the stripping of the altar and the removal of any unnecessary items from the sanctuary - cushions, loose chairs, hassocks, paraments and so forth. As the Good Friday Eucharist is a continuation of that of Maundy Thursday evening, the bell is not rung at the commencment of the service, and there is no procession at the beginning - the clergy simply come in, almost casually, from the vestry door.
[ 24. February 2017, 05:11: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
As the Good Friday Eucharist is a continuation of that of Maundy Thursday evening, the bell is not rung at the commencment of the service, and there is no procession at the beginning - the clergy simply come in, almost casually, from the vestry door.
In their black cassocks -- no vestments -- and prostrate themselves on the floor. The Good Friday liturgy is the most moving of the entire year, when it's done properly, including the chanting of the Passion including the "weeping tone.". [Too many YouTube links to pick one.]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
I am well versed in the Easter Triduum liturgical practices you mention and for Easter Sunday itself.
But what I cannot get my head round is the idea that there is a "neutral" part of Holy Week, neither Lent or Easter.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
As the Good Friday Eucharist is a continuation of that of Maundy Thursday evening, the bell is not rung at the commencment of the service, and there is no procession at the beginning - the clergy simply come in, almost casually, from the vestry door.
In their black cassocks -- no vestments -- and prostrate themselves on the floor. The Good Friday liturgy is the most moving of the entire year, when it's done properly, including the chanting of the Passion including the "weeping tone.". [Too many YouTube links to pick one.]
THE Liturgy of Good Friday has red vestments.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Although it is generally clear in the Roman rite that preparations for Easter should have been completed BEFORE the Evening Mass of the Lord's Supper e.g. confessions made if wanted or needed,as the Paschal Triduum should be seen as three parts of the one action,namely the commemoration of the Passion,the Death and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Liturgically the faithful leave the church after the Holy Thursday liturgy IN SILENCE and return the next day for the second act of the drama in silence.The same again after the Good Friday liturgy and the beginning of the Holy Saturday liturgy.
The silence is very necessary. The Maundy Thursday service does not end with a procession but with the stripping of the altar and the removal of any unnecessary items from the sanctuary - cushions, loose chairs, hassocks, paraments and so forth.
Stripping ceased to be part of the liturgy in 1967
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
But what I cannot get my head round is the idea that there is a "neutral" part of Holy Week, neither Lent or Easter.
I'm not sure I'd call the Triduum "neutral." Under the Lent-ends-on-Thursday model, there's Lent (preparation), and the Triduum (what the preparation has been for), with the Easter Vigil being the climax of the Triduum. The Triduum is, as illustrated by the posts above, properly thought of as a single commemoration that spans three days, each of which has its own focus and mood.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Stripping ceased to be part of the liturgy in 1967
Normally Leo, I'd defer to your greater knowledge of these things, but, having experienced it much more recently, I was fairly sure that was wrong. I've checked and indeed it is provided for as an optional ('may') on page 303 of Times and Seasons. So that cannot be the case.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Stripping ceased to be part of the liturgy in 1967
Normally Leo, I'd defer to your greater knowledge of these things, but, having experienced it much more recently, I was fairly sure that was wrong. I've checked and indeed it is provided for as an optional ('may') on page 303 of Times and Seasons. So that cannot be the case.
It's still expected in the Roman Missal too.
(In the copy I have to hand...) At the end of the Liturgy of Mass of the Lord's Supper, under the heading 'The Transfer of the Most Blessed Sacrament', one of the instructions is 'the altar is stripped and, if possible, the crosses are removed from the church'.
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Liturgically the faithful leave the church after the Holy Thursday liturgy IN SILENCE and return the next day for the second act of the drama in silence.The same again after the Good Friday liturgy and the beginning of the Holy Saturday liturgy.
I have always loved the space between Holy Thursday and Good Friday, and I think that the absence of a dismissal is key. Even as I drive home from church, wake up the next morning, and go to work for a few hours, I am keenly aware that I am in the middle of something really important.
The space between Good Friday and Holy Saturday? Not so much. High stress choir rehearsal in the morning with lots of "Alleluias," rush to get everything ready for the next day in the afternoon, it's easy to lose track of where you are.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Stripping ceased to be part of the liturgy in 1967
Normally Leo, I'd defer to your greater knowledge of these things, but, having experienced it much more recently, I was fairly sure that was wrong. I've checked and indeed it is provided for as an optional ('may') on page 303 of Times and Seasons. So that cannot be the case.
That may be the case in the C of E, but it remains a common practice here outside of Sydney.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The forty days of Lent do not include the Sundays that are in Lent. Sundays are each considered a "little Easter." As such, it is right and proper to have communion on Sunday.
[ 24. February 2017, 23:31: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Lent does begin on Ash Wednesday and it also goes to Maunday Thursday. Not counting the Sundays in Lent, that gives you forty days.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Lent does begin on Ash Wednesday and it also goes to Maunday Thursday. Not counting the Sundays in Lent, that gives you forty days.
No, I'm afraid it doesn't. Ash Wednesday to Maundy Thursday is 44 days. Remove the six Sundays and you have 38 days. To get exactly 40 days, you have to (1) exclude Sundays and (2) include Good Friday and Holy Saturday.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
You are right, I was misinformed. Black (Good) Friday and Holy Saturday (Easter Vigil) should also be included.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Stripping ceased to be part of the liturgy in 1967
Indeed in the Roman rite, but all the C of E seasonal additions suggest the stripping of the altar in view of the congregation.
It sounded a lovely idea to me until I’d experienced it. All that furniture removal is very noisy and distracting particularly when accompanied by Psalm 22 being belted out to amateur Anglican chant.
I’d far rather the service ended with silent prayer before the reserved sacrament.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I have experienced that stripping of the altar done well and it's really moving.
The church where I've seen it does a certain amount of preparation to minimise the stripping to the candles, altar cloths and closing the reredos doors. Above the altar there's a triptych of scenes of the life of Christ, the outer two panels becoming the doors with plain backs.
Part of the preparation for the stripping is removing a few bits from the triptych before it can be closed safely. But that's done during the day on Maundy Thursday at the same time that the Garden of Repose is built in the Lady Chapel, where the vigil is held, with Compline at midnight.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We do the stripping and furniture removal as quietly as possible during the first part of the Watch, but it's difficult to maintain complete silence.
IMHO, given the small numbers we have attending on Maundy Thursday (less than a dozen last year!), it would be better to have a short, silent Watch before the Blessed Sacrament, and to clear the decks the next morning in good time for the Liturgy of the Cross.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
But what I cannot get my head round is the idea that there is a "neutral" part of Holy Week, neither Lent or Easter.
I'm not sure I'd call the Triduum "neutral." Under the Lent-ends-on-Thursday model, there's Lent (preparation), and the Triduum (what the preparation has been for), with the Easter Vigil being the climax of the Triduum. The Triduum is, as illustrated by the posts above, properly thought of as a single commemoration that spans three days, each of which has its own focus and mood.
Neither would I call the Triduum "neutral"; hence the inverted commas. My problem based on the information supplied on this thread, is that if Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday are not that part of Lent within Holy Week; and Easter has not yet begun, then in what season of the Church's year, are those three days? I was not brought up that way. But I appreciate the different significances for each of those three days.
Hearing from Leo that the stripping of the altars (and other church furnishings) on Maundy Thursday, was abolished in 1967; that is not my experience. Where I continue to experience the Maundy Thursday Liturgy, that part of the ceremonial is still very much a feature.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
My problem based on the information supplied on this thread, is that if Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday are not that part of Lent within Holy Week; and Easter has not yet begun, then in what season of the Church's year, are those three days?
They are part of the Triduum, which is a thing unto itself, and is, as it were, the hinge on which the seasons of Lent and Easter turn. That said, they are also still part of Holy Week, which overlaps Lent and the Triduum.
In the Lent-ends-on-Maundy-Thursday model, most of Maundy Thursday is part of Lent. Lent is understood to end at sundown on Maundy Thursday or just prior to the Mass of the Lord's Supper, take your pick. From Thursday evening on to Sunday evening, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday and Easter Day make up the Triduum, which are seen as a marking and inviting participation in a single thing—the Paschal Mystery. The Last Supper, the passion, the crucifixion, the burial and the Resurrection are all parts of or stages in that single Paschal Mystery.
In this understanding, Lent is not a time of preparation for Easter, nor are Maundy Thursday and Good Friday seen as part of preparing for Easter. Rather, Lent is a time of preparation for the Triduum, for preparing ourselves to die and to rise with Christ. It is a time of preparation for participation in the Paschal Mystery, of which Easter—and the Easter Vigil, specifically—is the climax, but of which the evening of Maundy Thursday and Good Friday are also part.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I am reading John Wilkinson’s edition of Egeria’s travels and he has a relevant note on the calculation of Lent. Although it was called “The Forty Days” it was calculated differently in different places. Wilkinson says “””The Forty Days” was … therefore only an approximate description of the number of fasting days in the period, or, for that matter, of the days given to catechetical instruction before Lent”.
He also notes that according to Socrates, Rome was only keeping a three week Lent in the early 400s.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
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Posted
Speaking as a Methodist Superintendent minister (for the Anglicans amongst us, who cannot relate to anything but their own polity, a Superintendent looks to be on the same level as a Rural or Area Dean, but I am reliably informed that in actual fact if one were to be accurate in interdenominational equivalence it would be closer to Bishop - although, of course, you don't think we are ordained at all, so that's probably irrelevant) perhaps I ought to remind you that whilst we have our sacramentalists in the Methodist Sacramental Fellowship, and Brother Wesley instructed Methodists to take Holy Communion as often as possible, we also have intertwined with Wesleyanism our United Methodist and Primitive Methodist strands.
Most Methodist lay people hold the sacrament in great reverence, but are very pragmatic about its frequency... in practice, the vast majority of Methodist Churches and congregations find once a month to be quite enough.
When it is celebrated, however, it is done properly and almost always when held in the morning (for the last forty years at any rate) as the main service of worship, not as a separate entity.
Of course, what constitutes "properly" may vary depending on the celebrant. Personally, I always use a properly constructed liturgy which I read (not always from the MWB, but usually) but some of my colleagues prefer a looser, more ad lib - though still structured - liturgy.
To give up Communion for Lent, therefore, is actually no great hardship for the vast majority of Methodists, since most of us are not anything like as sacramental as our Anglican friends... but please do not make the mistake of thinking that situation pertains because we don't care about Communion: quite the reverse, we care very deeply, so deeply in fact that for some to celebrate Communion more frequently would be seen as taking the sacrament for granted, because for some, infrequency denotes more, not less, reverence.
However, it is true to say that for the most part (again, excluding brethren and sisters in the MSF) we are not fussed by what people wear or how the Communion Table or Church is decorated, provide that due decorum abounds and respect is shown to the service.... and most of us give the remaining bread to the birds, with reverence and blessing.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Of course before the C20, infrequent communion after intense preparation was the rule rather than the exception not only for protestants, but –despite frequent non- communicating mass attendance – most lay Roman Catholics and Orthodox.
John Wesley, Calvin, Thérčse of Liséux and I would disagree with the practice.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
[QB
But surely there is a long established Protestant tradition of infrequent communion[/QB]
For the Brethren (in which I was raised) The Lord's Supper is the most important worship assembly of the week and would be foregone on no Sunday.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
For the Brethren (in which I was raised) The Lord's Supper is the most important worship assembly of the week and would be foregone on no Sunday.
I think the Brethren get that one right.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
And good on the Brethren. I think I said "most Protestants".
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
So is the theological preference here that churches should offer communion frequently, or that Christians should take communion frequently? These seem to be two different things.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Again I'm not too sure about the meanings of the words which Svitlana uses.
Certainly in the Roman rite Communion is indeed OFFERED to the intending communicant with the words 'The Body of Christ' to which the communicant gives assent by saying 'Amen'. That is why in the Catholic Church people generally talk about 'receiving' Communion rather than 'taking' Communion.
However Svitlana may be using the word 'communion' to refer to the whole rite of the eucharist. Catholics talk about Mass being OFFERED. In that expression it is meant that the Body and Blood of Christ (under the outward signs of bread and wine) are offered to God re-presenting to us here and now the one
propitiatory sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
Certainly in the past the Catholic Church placed an undue emphasis on the sacrificial element of the eucharist,but this has been slowly remedied over the last 150 years.
Of course I may have completely misunderstood what it was that Svitlana was meaning to say.
I have never heard of 'offering communion' except in the first explanation that I gave earlier.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So is the theological preference here that churches should offer communion frequently, or that Christians should take communion frequently? These seem to be two different things.
In my tribe, at least, they aren't really two different things. There certainly may be those who refrain on specific occasions for one reason or another (as per some posts above), but the expectation is that people commune at every celebration, and that those celebrations will be frequent. (Every Sunday is presented as the norm, but monthly is in practice the norm in most places.)
[ 26. February 2017, 14:19: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
My problem based on the information supplied on this thread, is that if Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday are not that part of Lent within Holy Week; and Easter has not yet begun, then in what season of the Church's year, are those three days?
They are part of the Triduum, which is a thing unto itself, and is, as it were, the hinge on which the seasons of Lent and Easter turn. That said, they are also still part of Holy Week, which overlaps Lent and the Triduum.
In the Lent-ends-on-Maundy-Thursday model, most of Maundy Thursday is part of Lent. Lent is understood to end at sundown on Maundy Thursday or just prior to the Mass of the Lord's Supper, take your pick. From Thursday evening on to Sunday evening, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday and Easter Day make up the Triduum, which are seen as a marking and inviting participation in a single thing—the Paschal Mystery. The Last Supper, the passion, the crucifixion, the burial and the Resurrection are all parts of or stages in that single Paschal Mystery.
In this understanding, Lent is not a time of preparation for Easter, nor are Maundy Thursday and Good Friday seen as part of preparing for Easter. Rather, Lent is a time of preparation for the Triduum, for preparing ourselves to die and to rise with Christ. It is a time of preparation for participation in the Paschal Mystery, of which Easter—and the Easter Vigil, specifically—is the climax, but of which the evening of Maundy Thursday and Good Friday are also part.
Thanks Nick Tamen. As one who was brought up to believe that Lent ends on Holy Saturday, this is of some help.
An on-line dictionary defines Triduum "A series of special religious observances over a three-day period, in preparation for a great feast."
I appreciate that the Easter Vigil is the most important service of the year, bringing the Triduum to a climax, ending with Evening Prayer on Easter Day.
We see from above (from Latin 'tri' means 'three'). But by counting Easter Sunday, as well as Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday, makes it over FOUR days, which would seem to contradict the meaning of TRIDUUM.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
We see from above (from Latin 'tri' means 'three'). But by counting Easter Sunday, as well as Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday, makes it over FOUR days, which would seem to contradict the meaning of TRIDUUM.
Not if the days are counted in the Jewish manner, as is frequently done in matters liturgical. The Triduum begins at sundown on Maundy Thursday. Sundown Thursday to sundown Friday is one day; sundown Friday to sundown Saturday is two days: and sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday is three days.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Forthview
My faith environment has mostly been a very 'low' one, so I'm unaccustomed to the nuances of terminology and theology that exist in the RCC and other high church sacramentalist settings.
British Methodism, which is what I know best, doesn't often refer to 'the Eucharist', and any distinction between the Eucharist and Communion isn't made very clear. For me, the latter simply refers to the ritual involving the sharing of bread and wine, and the liturgy that accompanies this.
To be clear, then, by 'offering' I referred to a church institution performing this public ritual. By 'taking' I referred to individual Christians choosing to participate in the ritual.
I made the distinction because even the CofE doesn't offer/perform this ritual at every one of its services - Evensong, for example. And the CofE's very vague concept of belonging makes it somewhat inconsistent to emphasise the 'taking' of weekly communion as essential. Even its evangelistic endevours don't seem to emphasise this. Nevertheless, communion is 'offered' every week to those who wish to participate.
[ 26. February 2017, 15:08: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Svitlana, there is no difference between Eucharist and Communion. They are different words used by different traditions and often by different people or even the same people within the same traditions to describe the same thing, as are the Mass, Holy Liturgy, Lord's Supper, Breaking of Bread, Holy Qurbana and doubtless other terms.
I am, though, sure that there will be people who will take offence at my saying this. Some may just glower to themselves. Others may perhaps be happy to explain why they think that is a gross over-simplification and a calumny on their deepest understanding of these things.
Which term a person uses, though, is often a badge which he or she will use to express where they place themselves on various ecclesiastical spectra. Even how a person pronounces the 'a' in Mass can be used as a marker.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Thankyou,Svitlana, for your explanation to me.
As I often say,the one word can mean different things to different people.Sometimes when we disagree or fail to understand what another person is saying,it is because we understand the meaning of a word in a different way from the person who first used it.
I had a salutary lesson once in my loose use of the word 'reformed' in a religious context.Naively I thought that it referred to all Protestants. I learned otherwise.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Baptists in general would be even "lower" than the Methodists and would very rarely use he word "Eucharist". Even "Communion" is perhaps less-used than "the Lord's Table" or "Breaking of Bread" - the latter of course being by far the preferred terminology of the Brethren.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
We see from above (from Latin 'tri' means 'three'). But by counting Easter Sunday, as well as Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday, makes it over FOUR days, which would seem to contradict the meaning of TRIDUUM.
Not if the days are counted in the Jewish manner, as is frequently done in matters liturgical. The Triduum begins at sundown on Maundy Thursday. Sundown Thursday to sundown Friday is one day; sundown Friday to sundown Saturday is two days: and sundown Saturday to sundown Sunday is three days.
OK I never thought of it like that.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Hilda of Whitby
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# 7341
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Posted
I have to say that I am absolutely stunned that the OP's church is doing such a thing. I have never heard of this before, anywhere. I really would like to hear the pastor's justification for this--was a justification given to the congregation?
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
A very valid point (and it's good to return to the subject of the OP).
In the C of E, any major change to the regular service pattern would have to be agreed between the incumbent and the Parochial Church Council, and, unless they all had a death-wish, by prior consultation with the congregation. The Methodist Church obviously has a different polity, but it would be interesting to learn of the reaction of the congregation concerned, clearly used to regular Eucharistic worship.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Graven Image
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# 8755
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Posted
It has not been announced yet, stay tuned until after next Sunday.
[ 28. February 2017, 18:18: Message edited by: Graven Image ]
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Without wishing to cast nasturtiums on those concerned, that does seem to be leaving it a bit late...especially if there might be objections to the idea!
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Hilda of Whitby
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# 7341
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Posted
Not wishing to come off as "all must do as I would do", but I would vote with my feet (at least for the duration of Lent) if a church I attended implemented or even suggested such a misguided and just plain bizarre Lenten practice.
Graven Image, do let us know what the "rationale" for this is, when you all find out.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
The average British Methodist church would only celebrate communion on at most two occasions during Lent. Of course, even one communion service is important, but I think a Methodist congregation would be less unnerved by postponing the ritual than an Anglican one would, simply because the latter would presumably be used to having it every week. Its absence would be more noticeable.
What I hope is that the congregation mentioned in the OP is engaging in other rituals that promote reflection and prayer, and not plugging the gap caused by the absence of communion with frivolous things.
Also, as much as I love hymns I'd rather not spend that extra time singing more of them (and I think this would be a temptation for the Methodists!). There needs to be more quietness in church, and I appreciate the calming space that communion provides. IMO Lent should generate more of that calming space than usual, not less.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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k-mann
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# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
As for Graven Image's Methodist church - perhaps the intention is good, but the Sundays between Ash Wednesday and Easter Sunday are not in Lent.
Well, that's not entirely true. While the rules of Lent don't apply on those Sundays, they are still part of Lent. Their names are also First Sunday of Lent, Second Sunday of Lent, etc.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
I have to say when I saw the OP I was not struck by leaving off a Sunday eucharist, but at the thought of Methodists having a eucharist as their main service every Sunday.
It's Methodism, Jim, (I thought,) but not Methodism as we know it.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Remember that American Methodism (the United Methodist Church) is a completely separate from the British variety. The most obvious difference is that the former has bishops, while the latter doesn't. Maybe this indicates that the UMC is likely to be a more sacramental institution in general.
It's a shame that, AFAIK, we don't have anyone on the Ship who has experience of both denominations. The grassroots differences (as opposed to the historical ones) would be particularly interesting to hear about.
[ 02. March 2017, 20:06: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
As for Graven Image's Methodist church - perhaps the intention is good, but the Sundays between Ash Wednesday and Easter Sunday are not in Lent.
Well, that's not entirely true. While the rules of Lent don't apply on those Sundays, they are still part of Lent. Their names are also First Sunday of Lent, Second Sunday of Lent, etc.
Yes, they are the Sundays of Lent, not in Lent. You don't get your 40 days and 40 nights if you count the Sundays.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
If there is a reason for this subtle difference, of whether or not to count the Sundays, I don't know what it is. Any offers?
As I understand it, the reason for the difference is that originally the essence of Lent was a period of strict fasting, and fasting is not permitted on Sunday.
That said, how to count the 40 days of Lent is anything but straightforward
That's right. Fasting is canonically forbidden on Sundays (with the exception of the Communion fast being understood).
Even in the Byzantine Rite, where fasting is uncommon but the Lenten rule of abstinence is quite severe, the abstinence rule is relaxed on Sundays, (and Saturdays, for that matter).
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's a shame that, AFAIK, we don't have anyone on the Ship who has experience of both denominations. The grassroots differences (as opposed to the historical ones) would be particularly interesting to hear about.
I'm fairly sure that we do. I'll send a PM and see what happens.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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