|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Giving up Jesus for Lent
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
Thanks to the Scrumpmeister for summoning me from the depths ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Remember that American Methodism (the United Methodist Church) is a completely separate from the British variety. The most obvious difference is that the former has bishops, while the latter doesn't. Maybe this indicates that the UMC is likely to be a more sacramental institution in general.
It's a shame that, AFAIK, we don't have anyone on the Ship who has experience of both denominations. The grassroots differences (as opposed to the historical ones) would be particularly interesting to hear about.
I'm a British Methodist Minister who spent a year of my training at seminary in the US (in Atlanta, GA). The UMC and the Methodist Church in Britain are certainly very different animals. However, I wouldn't say that the UMC is more sacramental, but it is certainly much more comfortable with the outward trappings of liturgical worship. So in a UMC cassocks and surplices, acolytes with candles, coloured hangings, processions and so on are quite unremarkable whereas in Britain such things would cause comment. As for the frequency of communion, the seminary I was at had a nearly daily Eucharist (Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday - students weren't in at the weekend or on Mondays), while the church I was attached to celebrated it once a month. I think in the UMC a weekly Eucharist as the principal act of worship is still uncommon and would be a mark of being 'high church' and I think it is unheard of in British Methodism. There are a few British Methodist churches that do have a Eucharist every Sunday but they tend to have a pattern of a monthly celebration in the principal service and then an early or late celebration on other Sundays.
HTH. Happy to answer other questions as I'm able.
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Thinking of sacramental Methodists, I haven't seen seasick around here for a long time.
I hope he is all right. I miss him.
Glad to see you here, seasick.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
Thanks ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I still lurk a bit. Doing ok but a lot of Real Life™ to contend with...
Anyway back to your regularly scheduled discussion!
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
As for Graven Image's Methodist church - perhaps the intention is good, but the Sundays between Ash Wednesday and Easter Sunday are not in Lent.
Well, that's not entirely true. While the rules of Lent don't apply on those Sundays, they are still part of Lent. Their names are also First Sunday of Lent, Second Sunday of Lent, etc.
Yes, they are the Sundays of Lent, not in Lent. You don't get your 40 days and 40 nights if you count the Sundays.
And what does 'of Lent' mean that 'in Lent' doesn't? And the fourty days is, and always has been, somewhat flexible. If you remove the sundays, you will end up with 37 or 38 days. The last day of Lent is Wednesday of Holy Week or Maundry Thursday.
[ 03. March 2017, 11:30: Message edited by: k-mann ]
--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I'd have thought the last day of Lent was the Saturday.
6 weeks of 6 days (Monday-Easter Saturday) = 36 plus the extra days between Ash Wednesday and the first Saturday in Lent (does that have a name), which is another 4 days.
The whole point is that Lent is supposed to be a fast, and one doesn't fast on a Sunday.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
seasick
Thank you for your response.
My feeling is that denominations develop to fill the niche that's available to them depending on the context. So perhaps in many American communities the UMC is the liturgical choice for Protestants, especially if TEC or Lutherans are unavailable? In England, by contrast, the CofE is almost always the local denomination that serves this purpose.
The UMC also has to distinguish itself from the many evangelical contemporary worship services that America provides. In more secular England this isn't a concern that most Methodist churches have.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
Absolutely - the UMC is of course much larger than TEC or the Lutheran denominations so I think it has a confidence not found in the Methodist Church in Britain which always seems to be looking over its shoulder at the Church of England.
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'd have thought the last day of Lent was the Saturday.
6 weeks of 6 days (Monday-Easter Saturday) = 36 plus the extra days between Ash Wednesday and the first Saturday in Lent (does that have a name), which is another 4 days.
This has already been discussed a fair amount in this thread. Short recap: In some liturgical traditions, including the Roman Rite, Lent ends at sundown on Maundy Thursday. Lent, in those traditions, is not a period of preparation for Easter, but rather a period of preparation for the Triduum, the celebration of the paschal mystery that includes the crucifixion and the resurrection.
As noted in the previous posts on this, adherence to an actual 40 days of Lent isn't always seen as necessary.
[ 03. March 2017, 19:06: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
My feeling is that denominations develop to fill the niche that's available to them depending on the context. So perhaps in many American communities the UMC is the liturgical choice for Protestants, especially if TEC or Lutherans are unavailable?
Not really, at least in my experience. It seems to be more that the UMC is often a middle ground between non-liturgical and more liturgical denominations. I had one Methodist friend who would quip that the UMC was made up of Baptists who never could quite decide if they wanted to be Anglican or not.
Many from the further ends of the liturgical spectrum find the UMC to be a middle ground. For example, my Presbyterian sister and her Baptist husband considered the UMC a compromise. (Yes, I said Presbyterian, not Episcopalian or Lutheran.)
It may also depend on what is meant by "liturgical." Yes, UMC churches (again in my experience) typically do not bat an eye at vestments, candles, acolytes, hangings and use of liturgical colors, etc. In that sense, they may be seen as "liturgical."
But when it comes to the liturgy itself—the actual order and words of the service—UMC congregations may or may not be liturgical. Some are pretty close to Baptists in how they worship, others follow much more formal liturgy. Again in my experience, in this regard UMC congregations often fall between Baptists on one end and Episcopalians, Lutherans and even Presbyterians on the other end. There are notable exceptions, of course.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
I did say that it depends on the context. So in a particular community there may well be a niche for a Methodist church that sits between the Baptists and the Presbyterians, but in another, the Methodists might have reason to do things differently.
Indeed, I'd expect the American UMC to be a more diverse institution than the British Methodist Church, since the former exists in a much more diverse national religious environment.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
Yes, you did say context matters, and you're right about that. You're also right about the UMC being diverse. But I'm not sure those things play out in quite the way you seem to be thinking.
I think it's fairly safe to say that the more liturgical UMC churches tend to be in more urban areas or near academic settings—places where there typically are more liturgical alternatives, like Lutherans or Episcopalians.
In more rural areas, where Lutheran or Episcopal options might be harder to come by (though not necessarily), my experience is that UMC churches are usually less liturgical. Again, they may have candles, acolytes, hangings and the like, and they'll follow the liturgical year up to a point, but there's not much fuss about them, and the service itself isn't particularly liturgical.
So it's not really a filling a niche difference, but rather it's often more of an urban-rural difference.
[ 04. March 2017, 00:48: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
FWIW, I imagine that for many ordinary Methodist laymen who would just like a good dose of ceremony in their worship, the intricacies of Presbyterian (etc.) liturgical life and thinking aren't that important. Most of these people have never had extensive experience of Presbyterianism (or of Anglicanism in Britain), so their aim wouldn't be to transfer everything slavishly from one denomination to the other.
More interesting is your idea that some places provide very little niche demand for high church forms of Christian practice. In England too I understand (from the Ship) that in a few areas low evangelical churches are dominant. The odd local person who wants quality high church worship therefore has to travel a considerable distance. I think this will happen more often in future.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
|
Posted
Nick Taman wrote. quote:
In more rural areas, where Lutheran or Episcopal options might be harder to come by (though not necessarily), my experience is that UMC churches are usually less liturgical. Again, they may have candles, acolytes, hangings and the like, and they'll follow the liturgical year up to a point, but there's not much fuss about them, and the service itself isn't particularly liturgical.
Right on, The church in question is in a rural area. Communion is every Sunday but with very little fuss. Sermon is based on one verse read from Common Lectionary but not always. No vestments, some times candles sometimes not. Christmas hymns are sung during Advent.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
|
Posted
The following was announced in church this morning.
" This year during the season of Lent, in memory of Christ's response to temptation, "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God" Matthew 4:4 we will fast from sharing the bread and cup during worship. We will share communion again on Easter Sunday.
As far as I could tell there was no reaction of any kind to this announcement. The service was about as long as usual with added song, longer sermon, and longer more formal prayers of the people.
As I just started attending this church as an Episcopalian because there is no TEC near by my rural area home and driving has become difficult for me on mountain roads I shall attempt to make the drive several times out of the area to receive at an Episcopal church during Lent.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
|
Posted
Thanks for the update, Graven Image.
I think that is a most unfortunate decision by the pastor and I do not understand the logic one whit. This is the bread of life that you all are being denied. As an Episcopalian myself, in your shoes I too would go elsewhere to receive communion during Lent. I'm sorry that it is difficult for you to get to the closest Episcopal church and I commend your determination to get there. It's really admirable.
--------------------
"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
I wonder if the apparent lack of reaction is due to this being an annual 'tradition' at this church, screwy though it seems.
If man is not to live by bread alone, he nevertheless needs to heed the words that proceed from the mouth of God - 'Do this in remembrance of Me'!
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I wonder if the apparent lack of reaction is due to this being an annual 'tradition' at this church, screwy though it seems.
If man is not to live by bread alone, he nevertheless needs to heed the words that proceed from the mouth of God - 'Do this in remembrance of Me'!
IJ
I don't think one really needs to be quite as sneering as you are above - the church is not talking about giving up the eucharist altogether, just not as regularly as in ordinary time. You may indeed not like it and given the opportunity you may indeed want to go elsewhere.
But the fact remains that there are traditions where the practice only occurs a few times a year, and this was fairly common 50-100 years ago. Around the reformation, many Roman Catholics only took the Eucharist once a year. I don't think the regular pattern of the Eucharist in Anglican circles goes back particularly far.
Anyway, one can wonder at other people's practice without getting quite so squiffy about it. If you don't like it, don't attend (and/or look at) that church.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
I was not intending to be either 'sneering' or 'squiffy'.
I really think your Irony-o-Meter might need recalibrating.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I was not intending to be either 'sneering' or 'squiffy'.
I really think your Irony-o-Meter might need recalibrating.
IJ
Sorry, but as someone who doesn't feel the need to partake in the Eucharist as often as you do (apparently), I feel it was. Nothing you said could be taken as ironic.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
QED
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I know what irony is, BF.
Pointedly talking about doing something "in remembrance of me" with reference to a church which isn't practicing the Eucharist for 6 weeks during Lent isn't irony.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Well, I'm not going to labour the point, but I'd appreciate it if you would kindly apologise for speculating about how often I receive Communion.
It's none of your business.
Thank you.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I didn't speculate on anything. I said apparently because you described someone else's practice as "screwy" and alluded to them not taking seriously the words which proceed from the mouth of God.
I think it is absolutely reasonable to commiserate with someone who feels their church is not meeting their needs. I do not think it is reasonable to use the words that you have.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
'as someone who doesn't feel the need to partake in the Eucharist as often as you do (apparently)' sounds rather to me like speculation....
Once again, QED.
BTW, are you getting me mixed up with Graven Image? I'm not the one attending this church, and who has decided to go elsewhere to receive Communion during Lent. I wholly commiserate with GI, and would probably do the same in their place.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Not at all, given that you appear to be concerned about "giving up Jesus" for Lent, it stands to reason that you think it is important to engage with the Eucharist during Lent. Which is more than the church in question is doing, and as it happens more than I'm doing. If you are taking the Eucharist more than zero times you're taking it more than both the church in question and me during Lent.
I have no problem with anyone deciding to take the Eucharist any frequency. And I understand the problems that the OP is having. I'm not objecting to this discussion, just the way you are phrasing your objections.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Well, we shall have to agree to differ.
As it happens, I do think that, for me, it is important to receive Communion weekly, especially after more than a year of illness, during which, at times, I was unable to receive Communion at all.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
One does not have to receive communion every time one attends a Communion service (by whatever name).
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
That's true, of course, but the point of this thread AIUI is that, in the case of the OPer's church, no-one is being given the opportunity to receive Communion during Lent.
That's what I find strange, given the church's regular weekly Eucharist-centred worship.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'd have thought the last day of Lent was the Saturday.
The Paschal Triduum is not part of Lent, even though you are supposed to fast on Good Friday.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The whole point is that Lent is supposed to be a fast, and one doesn't fast on a Sunday.
Yes, but the name of the days are still "First Sunday of Lent," "Second Sunday of Lent," "Third Sunday of Lent," etc. In the Roman Catholic Church you are also free from the rules of fasting throughout the whole of Lent, except Ash Wednesday (when you are supposed to fast and abstain from meat), fridays (when you are supposed to abstain from meat), and Good Friday (when you are supposed to fast and abstain from meat). The remaining 37 days (approximately) are still part of Lent.
--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
That's true, of course, but the point of this thread AIUI is that, in the case of the OPer's church, no-one is being given the opportunity to receive Communion during Lent.
IJ
That's if one confines oneself to the same church place of worship.
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Quite so - which is doubtless why the OPer is going elsewhere during Lent.
Am I missing something, somewhere?
IJ ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
The following was announced in church this morning.
" This year during the season of Lent, in memory of Christ's response to temptation, "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God" Matthew 4:4
As an Anglican it is not for me to say how Methodists should worship. I can understand if they delayed communion so they could appreciate it more at Easter.
Instead the Minister seems to exemplify the (typically protestant and Enlightenment) view that words (here the sermon) are more significant than actions (here the eucharist), symbols or images.
I don’t agree with that attitude ( words and ritual go together and words can be very misleading) and insofar as I can understand Jacques Derrida, neither did he.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
I tried to make that point (sort of) quite a few posts ago, but was accused of 'sneering' and being 'squiffy' (which may or may not be true. YMMV.)
I think venbede has said it perhaps rather more felicitously than I!
Agreed, too, that it's not for us Anglicans to comment too much on how Methodists worship, but the OP, by its very existence, does rather put discussion into the public domain.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
|
Posted
I want to say that my intent with this post was not to criticize the Methodist worship, but to inquire if others had this experience and how if in any way it helped them spiritually, during Lent. As an Episcopalian I certainly do not expect the Methodists to conform their worship to my wants or needs.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
