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Source: (consider it) Thread: Backlash at Bath Abbey over no more Choral Matins
Piglet
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
... Many cathedrals and greater parish churches have painlessly reduced and even phased out Choral Matins ...

The custom at our place (Christ Church Cathedral, Fredericton) is Choral Matins on the fifth Sunday of the month when there is one, which suits me.

I don't dislike Matins (and there are some very fine settings of the Canticles which I wouldn't like to lose out on singing), but it never strikes me as having the perfect balance of Evensong.

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Bishops Finger
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ISTM that the reason for that ill balance, in contrast to Evensong, may be due (a) to the unvarying use of the Venite, rather than going straight to the Psalms, and (b) having the Benedictus in the Wrong Place.

As with Magnificat at Evensong, the Gospel Canticle properly goes between the OT and NT readings. The Te Deum doesn't really to seem to be in the right place at Mattins.

YMMV.

IJ

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L'organist
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What our so-called liturgical purists have never addressed is that they - CofE and RC - have entirely misrepresented the way the Mass was for hundreds of years in that Matins was always the lead-in to the Mass. When we read of people going to Mass daily it doesn't mean some quick, 20 minute thing: it was full Matins up to the creed, then into the communion service. It follows, therefore, that for churches to just dump Matins means they are dumping part of the Mass.

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leo
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That's not right - Frankenmass was a Victorian thing.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Just to go back a bit -

Ecclesiastical Flip-Flop wrote:
quote:
Many cathedrals and greater parish churches have painlessly reduced and even phased out Choral Matins completely.
I don't know about greater parish churches. But round here (and I've just checked eight of them) choral mattins is still in fine fettle. Only one of the eight (Bristol) has either downgraded it or never had it as a choral service. The times I have been to Winchester suggest that it is as popular broadly as the Choral Eucharist. And having done stand-in choral work in many of them, my recollection of numbers elsewhere was similar. Is this a geographic thing by any chance?

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Enoch
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Leo, I'm not sure I agree with you. It depends what you mean by Frankenmass. If you mean omitting any part of the services when they were combined with another, yes, that was something that only came in from c 1870 onwards. Before then, it would have been illegal.

It's quite difficult to ascertain what really happened before all the changes in the mid C19. There's nobody around who can remember. To those that were around, it was so 'what always happened' that no one really bothered to record it.

Before that, what I think you were likely to get was:-

- The Morning Hymn Awake my soul.
- Possibly an extra metrical psalm.
- Morning Prayer strictly by the BCP, Venite replaced by Christ our Passover on Easter Sunday. Psalm(s) of the day+, Te Deum or Benedicite++, Benedictus or Jubilate, Quicunque Vult in stead of Apostles' Creed on certain days of the year.
- After third collect, Quire and/or band displays its virtuosity with an anthem, often a florid setting of a metrical psalm with fuguing parts and repeats.
- Morning Prayer ends as per 1662 BCP and service proceeds straight on to
- Litany
- possibly another metrical psalm or after about 1820 a hymn.
- Communion starts, and proceeds as far as Nicene Creed,
- Sermon.
- After that, there's a slight uncertainty what happened on a non-Communion Sunday. Because the church was funded from the rates and pew rents, there wouldn't usually be any collection. But according to the book, that was where there was any collection for a special purpose.
In theory it is possible the Prayer for Church Militant followed every week and if there was no Communion, that marked the end of the service. But from the way a C18 prayer book is set out, it is possible the Prayer for Church Militant may only have been included if there was Communion.
- If there was no Communion, there would probably have been another metrical psalm or after about 1820 a hymn.
- Then, service ends.
- If any persons have given notice that they intend to receive, this then followed by the remainder of Holy Communion, starting with Exhortation.
It was quite possible that the rest of the congregation would have been allowed to leave then, and the communicants would have moved into different pews.

Bearing in mind that sermons were very long, services must have seemed interminable. It is no wonder that Parson Woodford frequently records very low attendances, particularly in winter.


+ It's quite difficult to find out whether the psalms and canticles at the appointed points in the service were always said as per 1662, or whether in some places metrical versions were sung inside the service rather than before or after it. Metrical versions of the prescribed canticles exist as also do early C19 pre-Oxford movement settings for congregational chanting of them. But 'psalmody' normally meant singing the Old or New Versions in metre. Almost every pre-Oxford movement prayer book came with one or the other version (occasionally both) bound into it. Apart possibly from cathedral choirs, I don't think anyone tried to sing prose psalms much before about 1850.

++ There are complaints at least as far back as the C18 about the prevalence of people shortening the Benedicite by batching the verses in threes.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Leo, I'm not sure I agree with you. It depends what you mean by Frankenmass. If you mean omitting any part of the services when they were combined with another, yes, that was something that only came in from c 1870 onwards. Before then, it would have been illegal.

That's what I meant - the 'cut and shut' MP ending with the Jubilate an going straight to the north end for the Lord's Prayer and Collect for Purity. (As I witnessed in evangelical hin the 1950s pre-Keswick).

Before that, as you rightly point out, it was full MP, then the Litany....

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Just to go back a bit -

Ecclesiastical Flip-Flop wrote:
quote:
Many cathedrals and greater parish churches have painlessly reduced and even phased out Choral Matins completely.
I don't know about greater parish churches. But round here (and I've just checked eight of them) choral mattins is still in fine fettle. Only one of the eight (Bristol) has either downgraded it or never had it as a choral service. The times I have been to Winchester suggest that it is as popular broadly as the Choral Eucharist. And having done stand-in choral work in many of them, my recollection of numbers elsewhere was similar. Is this a geographic thing by any chance?
Fine fettle does not have to be weekly.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Indeed, but all the ones I looked at, with the exception of Canterbury, were.

Not intended as a scientific survey - I was only looking at Cathedrals across the south from Canterbury to Exeter. But as I said, my own experience has been that this service remains well-supported in cathedrals.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Leo, I'm not sure I agree with you. It depends what you mean by Frankenmass. If you mean omitting any part of the services when they were combined with another, yes, that was something that only came in from c 1870 onwards. Before then, it would have been illegal.

That's what I meant - the 'cut and shut' MP ending with the Jubilate an going straight to the north end for the Lord's Prayer and Collect for Purity. (As I witnessed in evangelical hin the 1950s pre-Keswick).

Before that, as you rightly point out, it was full MP, then the Litany....

Frankenmass - one shipmate who was a fan of that, who has stopped posting for whatever reason was PD. PD, originally from UK, settled in the USA and became the Presiding Bishop of his continuing and breakaway Anglican Episcopal Church, whilst remaining Rector of his Church in Arizona.

PD had Frankenmass at his church on certain Sundays and used to post about it. Apart from him, Frankenmass seems to have disappeared and I would be at a loss to know where to find it now. Obviously, it is combined MP and HC (or even EP and HC), so as to have one service and not two services. Frankenmass would appeal to me if ever I found it.

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TomM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Leo, I'm not sure I agree with you. It depends what you mean by Frankenmass. If you mean omitting any part of the services when they were combined with another, yes, that was something that only came in from c 1870 onwards. Before then, it would have been illegal.

That's what I meant - the 'cut and shut' MP ending with the Jubilate an going straight to the north end for the Lord's Prayer and Collect for Purity. (As I witnessed in evangelical hin the 1950s pre-Keswick).

Before that, as you rightly point out, it was full MP, then the Litany....

Frankenmass - one shipmate who was a fan of that, who has stopped posting for whatever reason was PD. PD, originally from UK, settled in the USA and became the Presiding Bishop of his continuing and breakaway Anglican Episcopal Church, whilst remaining Rector of his Church in Arizona.

PD had Frankenmass at his church on certain Sundays and used to post about it. Apart from him, Frankenmass seems to have disappeared and I would be at a loss to know where to find it now. Obviously, it is combined MP and HC (or even EP and HC), so as to have one service and not two services. Frankenmass would appeal to me if ever I found it.

I believe - though I haven't been for a few years now - it is still used for the daily Eucharist at Salisbury Cathedral.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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I believe - though I haven't been for a few years now - it is still used for the daily Eucharist at Salisbury Cathedral.

I have just looked this up and at Salisbury Cathedral is advertised Monday to Saturday 07.30 Morning Worship with Holy Communion (presumably aka Frankenmass).

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Bishops Finger
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Similarly, our local Cathedral has Morning Prayer and Holy Communion on several weekday mornings at 8'o clock, using Common Worship.

IJ

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Enoch
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Having been to it when attending something at Sarum College, the weekday daily early service in Salisbury Cathedral is said and is a combination of Common Worship Daily Prayer, Mornings, and Common Worship Holy Communion.

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Bishops Finger
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Do they have the Psalms, Canticles, and readings for MP, and also the Epistle and Gospel for the Eucharist? It must make for a longish service if they do!

IJ

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Enoch
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Perhaps this proves that I'm not a true Ecclesiantic and should not be posting on this board, but I'm afraid I can't remember. It's not an overwhelmingly long service. So I think they must have the readings for only one of the two services. I think they come in the Morning Prayer section.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Having been to it when attending something at Sarum College, the weekday daily early service in Salisbury Cathedral is said and is a combination of Common Worship Daily Prayer, Mornings, and Common Worship Holy Communion.

At that early hour, I take it for granted that the service is said, rather than sung. The name of the service sometimes gives a clue, though I don't think it can be relied upon too much. Morning Prayer if said, or Matins if sung, but not necessarily.

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Bishops Finger
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That seems to be the distinction here as well, with 'Evensong' denoting Choral, and 'Evening Prayer' as said, too.

IJ

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Do they have the Psalms, Canticles, and readings for MP, and also the Epistle and Gospel for the Eucharist? It must make for a longish service if they do!

IJ

Not that I remember - but I was there a long time ago.

The MP readings act as the mass readings - indeed, the C of E weekday lectionary always provides for a gospel lection as one of the NT options.

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fletcher christian

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The Irish model for the CofI for services was very much Matins followed by the Litany followed by Holy Communion (all BCP and all in full). Some places appear to have had a little ten minutes break between the Litany and Eucharist to allow folk to come and some to go. Over the years this morphed into what became commonly called 'Mangled Matins' as others have described above. This model persisted in many parishes right up until the 1970's but I don't believe I've heard of it being done like this anywhere these days. However, many places just had Matins on its own many a Sunday.

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TomM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Do they have the Psalms, Canticles, and readings for MP, and also the Epistle and Gospel for the Eucharist? It must make for a longish service if they do!

IJ

As I say it is a few years since I've been (when I was a student at Sarum College actually), but then they used the canticle and Benedictus as set in CW:DP, and the psalm and readings from DEL.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
That seems to be the distinction here as well, with 'Evensong' denoting Choral, and 'Evening Prayer' as said, too.

IJ

That logically follows on, regarding the evening office, from my above point about the morning office. I was keeping it relatively simple.

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PaulTH*
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I sometimes attended a Central London church in the 1980's where three Sundays out of four we had Choral Matins followed by Said Eucharist beginning at the penitential rite. The fourth Sunday was Sung Eucharist, all services from the BCP. Sadly I know of no churches today with such liturgical excellence. Towards the end of last year I visited the same church to find all Sunday services to be the Eucharist from Common Worship. Next time I go to London to worship I will likely go to Westminster Abbey where at least Matins still exists.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I sometimes attended a Central London church in the 1980's where three Sundays out of four we had Choral Matins followed by Said Eucharist beginning at the penitential rite. The fourth Sunday was Sung Eucharist, all services from the BCP. Sadly I know of no churches today with such liturgical excellence. Towards the end of last year I visited the same church to find all Sunday services to be the Eucharist from Common Worship. Next time I go to London to worship I will likely go to Westminster Abbey where at least Matins still exists.

There are occasional exceptions about Sunday Matins at Westminster Abbey - Check! Most Sundays in the year, there is Choral Matins at St. Paul's Cathedral, London, but beware of Sundays in July!

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Bishops Finger
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Heed the warning! Choral Mattins is the first to go at our Cathedral if other events intervene.

For example, the Sung Eucharist is now and then re-timed to 930am, instead of 1030am, if there is some sort of civic or state service in the later slot, and this means that 945am Mattins has to go...

IJ

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I sometimes attended a Central London church in the 1980's where three Sundays out of four we had Choral Matins followed by Said Eucharist beginning at the penitential rite.... Sadly I know of no churches today with such liturgical excellence.

'Liturgical excellence' seems a strange way to describe such a truncated eucharistic liturgy. The 1662 rite in itself is a distorted version of the traditional rite, but to omit such a significant section of it seems rather perverse. I wonder how many admirers of the (admittedly sublime) language actually believe or understand any of the theology behind it.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I sometimes attended a Central London church in the 1980's where three Sundays out of four we had Choral Matins followed by Said Eucharist beginning at the penitential rite.... Sadly I know of no churches today with such liturgical excellence.

'Liturgical excellence' seems a strange way to describe such a truncated eucharistic liturgy. The 1662 rite in itself is a distorted version of the traditional rite, but to omit such a significant section of it seems rather perverse. I wonder how many admirers of the (admittedly sublime) language actually believe or understand any of the theology behind it.
Not all worshippers who turn up for a "stay behind" Communion after Matins, have attended the Matins service that precedes it. Thus, by starting the Communion service, with the penitential rite, means that such worshippers have missed out on the elements that include the Ministry of the Word.

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

Not all worshippers who turn up for a "stay behind" Communion after Matins, have attended the Matins service that precedes it. Thus, by starting the Communion service, with the penitential rite, means that such worshippers have missed out on the elements that include the Ministry of the Word.

This rather depends on where you think the penitential rite comes ...
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leo
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We're talking BCP so the penitential rite' comes after the prayer for the Church militant.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We're talking BCP so the penitential rite' comes after the prayer for the Church militant.

I took that for granted in posting above.

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:

The MP readings act as the mass readings - indeed, the C of E weekday lectionary always provides for a gospel lection as one of the NT options.

There's only an inevitible gosoel on Sundays and major festivals. On weeekdays there may not be a gospel, hence I'm sure I remember Salisbury used the mass readings in the truncated Mattins

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# 16669

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I spoke to a liturgically au fait friend some time back who gave me an amused account of a Sung Eucharist at Bath Abbey. As I remember, there appeared to be little sense of either the shape of the liturgy or its power. The service appeared to my friend to be dominated by the sort of sentimental, ingratiating, personal material I could all too well imagine the triter sort of suburban Family Communion.

The objectors at the Abbey don’t seem very sympathetic to me (and I would go to the stake for the Eucharist as the principal Sunday service) but I suspect their concern is the loss of formality. I would sympathize with that, but I might start another thread on the place of formality in worship.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged



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