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» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » Unusual request for a Mystery Worship (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Unusual request for a Mystery Worship
Mark Wuntoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
... And certainly not for those who shout with a heavy accent.

Irrespective of accent, can you recall any preacher who shouted who had anything to say that you and everyone else present would have been anything other than better off if they had not had to hear it?
Difficult to say, innit? Even though I was kept awake I didn't understand what was said or the sound volume was too high to hear.
So I'll pass on that one.

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verity
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A lady in my last church gets nasty feedback from a loop and so doesn't use it. It's definitely the hearing aid with her, but it works for her much better tgan the more modern hearing aid she tried out.
But then, that highlights for us that we shouldn't be saying "well, it works for others+ so tough".
Even if we don'thave an answer, we must always seek one

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Baptist Trainfan
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We had problems in my last church hall with long-life light bulbs (admittedly rather old ones) interfering with the loop system - producing a constant buzz or whine for users.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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I don't mean to be facetious, but there's something to be said for candles after all.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by verity:
A lady in my last church gets nasty feedback from a loop and so doesn't use it. It's definitely the hearing aid with her, but it works for her much better tgan the more modern hearing aid she tried out.
But then, that highlights for us that we shouldn't be saying "well, it works for others+ so tough".
Even if we don't have an answer, we must always seek one

It works for some but obviously the result for others is not simply that it does not work, but has a strong negative effect. How do we reconcile these competing needs?

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Curiosity killed ...

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The light system interfering with the sound loop comes from someone bodging the sound loop. To make a sound loop work properly it should use proper (expensive) cables that are insulated against other inputs and they shouldn't be run through with the lighting cables.

(Says someone who suffered the consequences of a similar buzz on a sound system where the bodgers had run a spur into a chapel, failed to use insulated wires and used the nice convenient route followed by the lighting cables. The perpetrators were all too old and deaf to hear the resultant mosquito whine. I was told I was fussy and difficult moaning about it. I now have tinnitus at that pitch and no longer attend that church because I'm not prepared to damage my hearing any further.)

PS The nice young curate came to find me and ask about the nasty whine because he has also been complaining about it, and had been told I had been talking about it for ages.

[ 06. June 2017, 06:00: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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Thanks for that ... when the buzz was reported to me I did a little bit of on-line research, and the British Deaf Association said that it is quite a common problem.

Another bugbear is PA systems which put out a high-pitched whistle which is above many people's auditory range, so if you say anything they reply that they know nothing about it.

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Mark Wuntoo
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I've been reflecting a bit on the original question. I hope that it is agreed to have a question for Mystery Worshippers. But ISTM that facilities for people with disabilities won't always be immediately spottable for MW'ers who are mobile, for example. One church that I have become aware of recently advertises tea and coffee after the service upstairs. If there is a lift it may well be tucked away at the back out of sight. (I'll try to find out [Biased] ) A loop system may not be advertised (though, of course, it should be). An adapted toilet maybe round a corner when an old building has been up-dated.
One can always ask about these things but it would raise suspicions and may out the MW'er. But no reason not to have a question.
Just some thoughts.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Good thinking. But shouldn't part of the MW evaluation be about whether a church makes these facilities known - eg on the notice-sheet, or with signs at the place where they give out hymnbooks, or by discreet words from the sidespeople?

One particular gripe of my wife is those churches that project everything onto screens (and I don't want to start a discussion here on the merits of screens vs. books per se). Her concern is for people who have difficulty reading screens because of poor distance vision - are (?large-print) sheets of the words available and offered at the door? In my experience that's rare.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Good thinking. But shouldn't part of the MW evaluation be about whether a church makes these facilities known - eg on the notice-sheet, or with signs at the place where they give out hymnbooks, or by discreet words from the sidespeople?

That's why I worded my suggested form of the question the way I did: "What indications did you see that the church seeks to make the building and services accessible to all worshippers?"

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
"What indications did you see that the church seeks to make the building and services accessible to all worshippers?"

That's a little wordy, though. Perhaps simply: "Are the building and services accessible to all worshippers?"

At any rate, Simon seems to have been abducted by gypsies again. Once they let him go, he and I can discuss the precise wording.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Jengie jon

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No Nick's maybe wordy but it is possible to assess, the second is impossible to assess unless you have someone with every disability present. Believe me making provision is not the same as being accessible unless you have tested it with a person present. For instance, having braille hymnbooks seems to make the worship more accessible to people who are blind. However, unless you also provide a seat with a table in front the blind person cannot use them.

I also think I have come across conflicting needs with different disabilities. For instance, putting the music system through the speakers may well be something that includes some deaf people, it can also be something that excludes people* whose m.e. is sensitive to loud sound.

Jengie

*based on a real case.

[ 06. June 2017, 13:07: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
"What indications did you see that the church seeks to make the building and services accessible to all worshippers?"

That's a little wordy, though. Perhaps simply: "Are the building and services accessible to all worshippers?"
It may be a little wordy. I can tend in that direction.

But it's a different question from "Are the building and services accessible to all worshippers?" The latter asks simply whether there is accessibility. As others have noted, a MWer—particularly one who doesn't need anything for accessibility—may not pick up on accessibility issues.

Part of what I was trying to get at is whether the church communicates ways in which the building or services are accessible. Some things (such as ramps and room for wheelchairs) may be easily seen, while others may be more "hidden." For example, there may be large-print hymnals or bulletins available, or there may be a loop system, but as a visitor was the MWer made aware of them? Part of accessibility is having things in place; the other part is communicating, especially to visitors, that they're there. In my experience, many churches are good at the first part but not at the second part.

So what I was trying to get at is whether it appeared to the MWer that this is a church that communicates to visitors the ways in which it tries to make things accessible, which in turn says something about the church's attitude to accessibility as an aspect of hospitality.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Given how good voice recognition programmes seem to be these days, is it at all possible to link via one of those from the speaker to any screen in the church?

Have you ever tried the closed captions on an internet video? They are usually very bad.

As far as steps are concerned, I can manage just fine if there is a handrail. Without a handrail, I am at risk of falling.

Moo

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Have you ever tried the closed captions on an internet video? They are usually very bad.

There's a difference between closed captions prepared beforehand for a film or canned presentation of a re-run TV show, and closed captions generated on the fly for a live broadcast such as news.

I find the latter jerky and spasmodic and very prone to error. I would not be surprised, for example, to see the word "justification" spoken in a sermon to be closed-captioned as "just tiff vacation."

BTW -- Pre-prepared closed captions for downloaded films are sometimes contained in an .RTF file in the same folder as the film, and can be edited to your heart's content if they don't please you.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Lamb Chopped
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The internet ones are usually automated and thus crap. You can really tell the difference when prepared captions have been supplied.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Leaf
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FWIW I like Nick Tamen's wording. I might be able to answer the question "What indications did you see that the church seeks to make the building and services accessible to all worshippers?" I would never be able to answer "Are the building and services accessible to all worshippers?"

I think indicators of accessibility could be conveyed. But as an able-bodied person, I would not be able to declare that 'the building and services were accessible to all worshippers.' I would have neither the experience nor the expertise to make that assessment. But I do think that anyone capable of serving as a Mystery Worshipper - with whatever other abilities they may have - could and should note their observations about accessibility as part of the report.

It might help to attach a huge YMMV notice.

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
There's a difference between closed captions prepared beforehand for a film or canned presentation of a re-run TV show, and closed captions generated on the fly for a live broadcast such as news.

I find the latter jerky and spasmodic and very prone to error. I would not be surprised, for example, to see the word "justification" spoken in a sermon to be closed-captioned as "just tiff vacation."

Or "euthanasia" captioned as "youth in Asia" (I've actually heard of that one happening).

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
FWIW I like Nick Tamen's wording. I might be able to answer the question "What indications did you see that the church seeks to make the building and services accessible to all worshippers?" I would never be able to answer "Are the building and services accessible to all worshippers?"

Agreed. If churches do have ramps, hearing devices, large-print bulletins, accessible toilets, or whatever, they are of no use to those who need them if they're a deep dark secret. A newcomer or visitor (or a Mystery Worshipper) should be able to see some indications of their availability.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I would not be surprised, for example, to see the word "justification" spoken in a sermon to be closed-captioned as "just tiff vacation."

Or "euthanasia" captioned as "youth in Asia".
Oh, the Freudian slip possibilities boggle the mind! Do I feel a Circus thread coming on? (Or did Sir Gus read "Go, Me Gone"?)

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Given how good voice recognition programmes seem to be these days, is it at all possible to link via one of those from the speaker to any screen in the church?

Have you ever tried the closed captions on an internet video? They are usually very bad.

Moo

No I haven't and to be honest I don't know what you're talking of. Perhaps it is that my voice recognition is now very used to me that means that I do not have problems. With regular clergy prepared to put in a bit of time training the system, similar results could be achieved.

I'm in favour of asking "what indications did you see etc". The OP suggests that the enquirer has a particular individual requirement, so individual that mention of it will lead to identification. If I were going into a church I may not know of the disability or what is needed to assist this person. I'd probably not be alone. So I'd see ramps, large print books and sheets, and perhaps mention of a hearing loop. I'd not be looking for what would support Miss Amanda's correspondent. So I could well honestly but inaccurately say that the church was accessible etc. OTOH, if I saw ramps, hearing loops, large print etc I could answer this version.

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
No I haven't and to be honest I don't know what you're talking of. Perhaps it is that my voice recognition is now very used to me that means that I do not have problems. With regular clergy prepared to put in a bit of time training the system, similar results could be achieved.

Here's your problem right here. Very few people, clergy included, are willing to put in any time at all to learn and train a voice recognition program unless it has a direct major benefit to themselves and they are convinced of that fact. Ask them to put in all that effort for the sake of people who may or may not end up using the material, well...

Because of course those who need it are probably not attending services regularly. So the leaders think it is not needed and won't put the time in. It becomes a vicious circle.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Gee D
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Mine took about 3 hours most at training and has served well since. I'm sure that clergy could find that sort of time with a little bit of effort. My system even remembers unusual names last used many years ago.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Lamb Chopped
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You must have a good system. The times I've tried to train one I've had to give up before getting closer than a rate of two errors per line. To be sure, that was some time ago; but I've hesitated to drop more money on a system after being taken several times.

ETA: I wonder if they hate sopranos?

[ 08. June 2017, 04:35: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I wonder if they hate sopranos?

Hate is such a strong word. Exasperated by sopranos, maybe.
[Devil]

Channeling Anna Russell: Why do sopranos have such beautiful voices? Because they have resonance where their brains ought to be.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Exasperated by sopranos, maybe.

Who isn't?

[Miss Amanda raises shield against hurled daggers as she runs to get her wrap.]

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Lamb Chopped
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Damn. Walked into that one!

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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verity
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I prefer the question "what indication" to "what do they do" for precisely the reason that a MWer can watch out.

My notes in my first MW report were put in the "other place" section about accessibility because they were negative, even though I put them in the "other notes" section in my report (because of this thread)
I had aimed for a succinct criticism of Graham Kendrick [Biased]

(Thank you for the edits on my report - it's very useful in guiding what to include in future reports)

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verity
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I did want to make a minor comment on wording - I've been edited to "sounded like NIV", when i'd written "looked like NIV" because I was referring to the actual book that I could see but not reach, rather than what I recognised from hearing.

Obviously I'm happy for the edit to stand, as I'm sure readers would interpret the comment how you did.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by verity:
I did want to make a minor comment on wording - I've been edited to "sounded like NIV", when i'd written "looked like NIV" because I was referring to the actual book that I could see but not reach, rather than what I recognised from hearing.

But how could you tell it was NIV from its appearance -- unless New International Version appeared on the binding? Your eyesight is probably better than mine -- I would have to pick it up and inspect it at close range to see that. I'm happy to revert your wording to the original, though.

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You must have a good system. The times I've tried to train one I've had to give up before getting closer than a rate of two errors per line. To be sure, that was some time ago; but I've hesitated to drop more money on a system after being taken several times.

ETA: I wonder if they hate sopranos?

They may well - mellifluous tenors more their scene?

I have what was then called the Professional version of a well-known system and then put in that Sunday afternoon to train it. Others on the floor use the same and are also happy with it. Most judges I know use it or a similar version as it lets them get down the outline of a judgement very quickly after a hearing, and later spend the time to refine it and put in the extra research needed.

I can't see the problems people refer to. We have visiting preachers a few times a year, but otherwise it's just the rector or assistant. If they each spend a short time, it will be up and running quickly. OK, punctuation will be scrappy and there will be the occasional mistaken word, but if it helps some to a better understanding of what's being said, so much the better.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Lamb Chopped
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I suspect i had what you have. I wanted it because i'm a writer andd I could probablh triple my outpug, but the error rate sgayed so friggin high that fixing it ate up all my timhe.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I suspect i had what you have. I wanted it because i'm a writer andd I could probablh triple my outpug, but the error rate sgayed so friggin high that fixing it ate up all my timhe.

Understood, but I've not had that sort of problem. I think you're probably right about the soprano voice.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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verity
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by verity:
I did want to make a minor comment on wording - I've been edited to "sounded like NIV", when i'd written "looked like NIV" because I was referring to the actual book that I could see but not reach, rather than what I recognised from hearing.

But how could you tell it was NIV from its appearance -- unless New International Version appeared on the binding? Your eyesight is probably better than mine -- I would have to pick it up and inspect it at close range to see that. I'm happy to revert your wording to the original, though.
Because I spend a lot of time in churches, and with books - it's my trade [Biased]
It definitely looked like a NIV binding

Posts: 21 | From: Kent | Registered: Mar 2016  |  IP: Logged
verity
Apprentice
# 18571

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you don't need to revert the wording - I'm sure most readers will assume I meant that I thought I was listening to the NIV. [Smile]
Posts: 21 | From: Kent | Registered: Mar 2016  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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LC - I just love the idea of tripling one's 'outpug'! The thought of outpugging everyone else...
[Overused]

verity - well done. IMHO, it was an excellent MW Report. More, please, if and when you have the time.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Believe it or not, that ebtry was the unintended redult of typing on this drattedc tablet i'll stop now,

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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I tinhk herpaps yu shood...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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Just dun't use it to submik a Mysery Warship reaper.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

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That just sounds like Norfolk dialect!
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Thas ryte, that is!

Dew yew keep atroshin, bor...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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Meanwhile, while we're waiting for the gypsies to release Simon, I will write to all current MWers encouraging them to include observations re accessibility in the Comments section of the report form.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960

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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
FWIW I like Nick Tamen's wording. I might be able to answer the question "What indications did you see that the church seeks to make the building and services accessible to all worshippers?" I would never be able to answer "Are the building and services accessible to all worshippers?"

I think indicators of accessibility could be conveyed. But as an able-bodied person, I would not be able to declare that 'the building and services were accessible to all worshippers.' I would have neither the experience nor the expertise to make that assessment. But I do think that anyone capable of serving as a Mystery Worshipper - with whatever other abilities they may have - could and should note their observations about accessibility as part of the report.

It might help to attach a huge YMMV notice.

As an occasional [able-bodied] Mystery Worshipper , I agree that one can only report on what one perceives and that accessibility is an issue worth reporting on. . Perhaps a short question could be something like "any obvious accessibility issues?", with Nick Tamen's clear longer text as "explanatory text" (which is a guide to the Mystery Worshipper, but does not appear in the published report).

And in the meantime I'm quite willing to put in a comment on such issues under another heading (e..g "heavenly?" or "hellish?"), though I admit to not having thought about such issues in writing my earlier reports.

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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.

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verity
Apprentice
# 18571

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I put my accessibility comments in "other observations" which was then put into a relevant section.

Oh, Amanda, having looked at my photos again, I appear to have got the material of the building wring - looks like it's stone blocks, not kentish ragstone. I feel very contrite, but would you be willing to change that bit please?
Masonry isn't my strong point.
(All mediaeval Kent churches should be kentish ragstone)

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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Pending a decision by Simon, I have written to all MWers of the past three years suggesting that they put observations re accessibility either in the heavenly bits section (if positive), or the "other place" section (if negative), or the comments section, from which the editor would move them as may be appropriate.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

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verity:
quote:
My suggestion here would be to use the recording to make a transcription of the sermon and put them both on the website - side by side.
That's a great idea, but unless the preacher writes out his/her sermon in full every time it would be a lot of work for somebody... how many congregations include a skilled audio typist? (I have had experience of trying to produce transcripts of audio recordings; it's not a trivial task).
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I have had experience of trying to produce transcripts of audio recordings; it's not a trivial task.

Indeed not. I've done it too. It might be amusing to see what voice recognition software might come up with, though.

But to update: The consensus is that more thought must be given to modifying the Mystery Worship questionnaire. We don't want it to look like we're conducting an official inspection of the church's compliance with disability requirements.

Meanwhile, some Mystery Worshippers have been commenting on such things as accessibility, availability of assistive listening devices, readability of the font used on projections, clarity of the PA system, etc.

Not exactly the same thing as how readily persons with disabilities seem to be accepted and assimilated into the congregation, but we do what we can do.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You must have a good system. The times I've tried to train one I've had to give up before getting closer than a rate of two errors per line. To be sure, that was some time ago; but I've hesitated to drop more money on a system after being taken several times.

ETA: I wonder if they hate sopranos?

What is quite possibly true is that all the development of said software is done on male white educated clear speaking such as its developers. Those whose voice is different for any reason have to train for longer. This gives you some clue to just how difficult adapting to a disability is.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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