homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » Ashes to Ashes.... (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Ashes to Ashes....
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
....have any Shipmates (C of E or otherwise) had to conduct a service for the scattering of cremated remains, as opposed to the interment thereof?

Our Place has been asked to do this with the ashes of our late Churchwarden, scattering them in and around the church grounds, so I have, of course, advised that we approach the Archdeacon for guidance. The C of E doesn't appear to have a specific liturgy, though the form provided for the burial of ashes seems to fit the bill with virtually no alteration.

We're in interregnum, but I, as a Lay Reader, have permission to officiate at funerals, so the job may well come my way.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have done this, although (to be honest) I adapt what I do according to circumstances. I'll PM you.
Posts: 9216 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You might look into whether local ordinances control where ashes can be scattered -- it varies widely. There is a lot of creativity on this subject, and sometimes people object. (I am tell there is a sign in the garden at Haworth, in Yorkshire, famously the home of Charlotte Bronte. So many Jane Eyre fans were sneaking in and scattering ashes that the gardeners put up a sign begging people to not do it, because the roses were suffering.)

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5355 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks, BT.

Brenda, you're quite right re local laws etc., which is why I advised fleeing to the Archdeacon for guidance/instructions! Our grounds are not extensive, but there are two or three 'suitable places...

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

 - Posted      Profile for Zappa   Email Zappa   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A few times and as you suggest I simply use the rite for interment but with a slightly more vigorous arm movement ...

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

Posts: 18734 | From: scarily close to 40° | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Have done it, well, helped with it, at sea, but can't remember what the form of it was. I imagine it'd be much the same on land.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6423 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530

 - Posted      Profile for stonespring     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What are denominational stances, if any, as to whether it is appropriate for a Christian to have his/her ashes scattered, rather than buried, and whether clergy are allowed to participate in a service for the scattering of ashes. Is the RCC the only denomination that has come out against scattering of ashes? (see below)

http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2016/10/25/161025c.html

I have no strong opinion on the matter - just curious about other denominations' views.

Posts: 1485 | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

 - Posted      Profile for Oscar the Grouch     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
....have any Shipmates (C of E or otherwise) had to conduct a service for the scattering of cremated remains, as opposed to the interment thereof?

Our Place has been asked to do this with the ashes of our late Churchwarden, scattering them in and around the church grounds, so I have, of course, advised that we approach the Archdeacon for guidance. The C of E doesn't appear to have a specific liturgy, though the form provided for the burial of ashes seems to fit the bill with virtually no alteration.

We're in interregnum, but I, as a Lay Reader, have permission to officiate at funerals, so the job may well come my way.

IJ

As I understand it, the C of E officially frowns upon the scattering of ashes. So if you ask the archdeacon, you may well be told not to do it. Certainly, in the "Companion to Common Worship", Gordon Giles makes it clear that the burial of ashes is to be preferred -which is why there is no liturgy for scattering ashes.

Having said that, I used to do it quite often. I simply took the service for the burial of ashes and made a few minor adjustments.

(interestingly, I have found here in Canada that the opposite is true. I have been "strongly advised" by diocesan staff that I should NEVER bury ashes in the church grounds, but should ALWAYS scatter them. This is because the moment you bury ashes, you turn the church grounds into a cemetery and a whole new set of rules and regulations need to be applied. Most people around here, though, prefer to have their ashes scattered at sea or in the local hills.)

--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

Posts: 3817 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Various views, as I expected, of course!

I'll await instructions from the Archdeacon, but I wasn't aware that officially the C of E doesn't like the scattering of ashes...though I might have guessed it from the lack of a specific service.

AFAIK, Our Place doesn't have a faculty (or whatever) for the interment of ashes.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A clergyman told me a few years ago that ashes must be buried in the ground and not scattered, but I don't know whether that was official or not, and he has since died.

Somebody else told me that they had run into problems trying to get permission to bury some ashes in a churchyard that already had relatives in it but was closed. Eventually the family had sneaked in by night, dug a little hole, poured them in and covered it in again. To some people that may sound very wicked, but it strikes me as a very sensible solution.

If you're a Reader in a vacancy, I'd have thought it would be best not to take any risks, to expect the family to carry any risks, not you.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7233 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
What are denominational stances, if any, as to whether it is appropriate for a Christian to have his/her ashes scattered, rather than buried, and whether clergy are allowed to participate in a service for the scattering of ashes.

There are no rules or restrictions for UK Baptists (or URC) - at least, I've never come across them in 30 years of ministry, and the Baptist "prayer books" certainly allow for both scattering and interment.
Posts: 9216 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why would a family need a member of the clergy to lead a service for the scattering of ashes if the deceased has already been cremated in a religious service?

Is it just that they want the scattering to be done in a dignified, sombre way, and a church minister is the most convenient choice for that?

Posts: 6338 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nothing to do with convenience. Everything to do with dignity, feelings of doing things right, and definitely
comfort.

Forgive me for the bluntness and indignity of the follwing.
Re the ashes themselves. They are quite heavy, not light, and thus scatter not well, if your idea of scatter is like mine. Like sand and small gravel. More drop than scatter. A little pile on the ground isn't very dignified. Into water is better, if burial isn't possible.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10829 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Noted re the weight of human ashes (and also the need to be aware of wind direction....). I rather envisage sowing them, as in sowing seed.....which somehow seems quite Biblical.

The deceased's parents are not now regular churchgoers, though they have been in the past, and very occasionally attend at Our Place. Dignity, doing things right, and comfort - not to mention closure - are all important to them, I'm sure, and the deceased himself would have wanted that (he'd have wanted a BCP service for Ye Scattering Of Ye Ashes, were there to be such a thing!).

As a Reader in a vacancy, I will, of course, abide by instructions/guidance from my always supportive Archdeacon, and Area Dean.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

 - Posted      Profile for Pigwidgeon   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Why would a family need a member of the clergy to lead a service for the scattering of ashes if the deceased has already been cremated in a religious service?

In my experience (in the U.S.) there is no religious service involved with the cremation. I had never heard of friends and families gathering at the "crem" until I read about it on the Ship.

Our standard procedure is to have a Memorial Service (rather than a funeral) at the church. Occasionally the body is present (in a coffin, under a pall), and the cremation is held afterwards. More often the cremation is done very soon after death, and the Memorial Service at the church follows days or even weeks later. If the deceased's ashes are being put into the Columbarium in our church's Memorial Garden (I've already bought my niche), the whole congregation, or sometimes just the family, walk down to the Garden for the ashes to be placed in a niche in the wall. If the ashes are being taken elsewhere, the family takes care of that after the service. One corner of the Memorial Garden is reserved for "scattering," but it's actually a very shallow burial.

--------------------
Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

Posts: 9297 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's certainly not unknown for families to informally scatter ashes, without benefit of clergy, subsequent to (and not necessarily immediately after) the customary funeral service (which may, or may not, be 'religious') at the crematorium.

It's interesting to note how customs differ across the pond.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, the actual cremation is something of a technical process, and mostly they don't want the family there. (It's a big oven, essentially -- there's no seating or viewing area.) To save on expense it is common in the US (unless it was a crime, or there is an autopsy, or disagreements among the survivors) to cremate the body quite soon after the death. This saves on the costs of refrigeration/storage, and the cost of a separate coffin.
The service is held afterwards (this also allows time for the family to travel in) and the urn containing the ashes is at the memorial service, usually on a credence table and covered by a veil.
The scattering/putting the urn into the columbariam/interring the ashes/whatever can take place quite later, years later if necessary.
Again this delay is sometimes very handy. My parents passed away this year, and had expressed the wish for their cremated ashes to be mixed together and scattered under the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. (This is actually quite popular and there is an entire boating industry there to meet this need.) But since they didn't pass away on the same day or week, it was necessary to keep my father's ashes for a while. Now that they are both gone, we plan to scatter the ashes next August, when I have to be in California anyway. Summertime means that many of the grandchildren will be available (not yet in school) and the long lead time means that people can plan to travel in and be there.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5355 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552

 - Posted      Profile for BabyWombat   Email BabyWombat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I’ve never done the scattering myself, and usually suggest to families they do the shallow hole burial vs actual scattering, to avoid ashes (well, grit) on their clothes and shoes, in nostrils, etc. if the day is breezy. That experience of carrying the loved one home on your shoes is quite upsetting.

I usually do the standard committal service, then let them have a go…… in most cases they are then wandering off into the woods or field or garden or something personal to them, then come back for a final collect and blessing. When we do this in our memorial garden it is a shallow hole, we cover them over and finish the service. If they want scattering on the parish grounds other than a dedicated memorial garden area, are they comfortable with the reality that someone will be mowing on that area, dogs possibly relieving themselves, and the possibility that there may be digging about for future plumbing or other reasons?

Posts: 87 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That's a good point, and applies to the area at the east end of the church where, so I understand, the deceased's parents want his ashes scattered.

On a purely practical note, I shall ensure that the grass is cut shortly before the service, but how long does it take, I wonder, for the ashes (grit) to be absorbed into the ground? Maybe I should pray earnestly for Heavy Rain to fall, about an hour or so after the service proper.....

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No - I refuse, following C of E advice about the integrity of the human remains.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23018 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The industry argument against scattering:
1) There is no place for the family to return, to remember the dead. (My siblings and I are not going to sail out to the Golden Gate Bridge.)
2) You have no control over the future of the site. Church property can be sold or redeveloped. The ashes are scattered on the grass today; in fifteen years what if they erect a playground on the spot? Of course ground burial isn't proof against the outrages of time. Even King Richard's burial site became a parking lot.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5355 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Why would a family need a member of the clergy to lead a service for the scattering of ashes if the deceased has already been cremated in a religious service?

In my experience (in the U.S.) there is no religious service involved with the cremation. I had never heard of friends and families gathering at the "crem" until I read about it on the Ship.

That's interesting.

In fact, British funerals today are said be less and less 'religious', even if led by a Christian minister. Only a third of funerals, including cremations, are conducted by a CofE minister.

We may find ourselves in a situation where families who identify as Christian will want two religious services for a deceased member, one at the crematorium or church and one at the scattering of ashes (or at a memorial service) whereas other families won't want a religious service at all.

Or perhaps Christian families might want one fairly secular service for friends and family who aren't religious, and another for those who are? I don't know.

Posts: 6338 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

 - Posted      Profile for Lucia     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My experience of Christian funerals in the UK has been that a service is held in the church, with the coffin present and family, friends, acquaintances etc all there and then only the close family travel to the crematorium with the coffin where there is a short committal service in the crem chapel and then the cremation takes place. Or it is done the other way around, the close family attend the crematorium for a service there and then a later memorial / thanksgiving for the life of the person service takes place in the church with everyone present. This may or may not be done on the same day as the cremation when it is done this way round.

I must confess I didn't know that some Christians had an objection to ashes being scattered! It's not something I had ever heard in church, only read here on the Ship. Various family members of mine who were lifelong Church of England members had their ashes scattered. I was not aware that there was any controversy about this!

Posts: 1065 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The cremated remains are a mix of fragments. Including black, grey and whitish. The white is likely bone.

I have, and my family has, a different take on a location. Because all, save one other, of my father's family were war killed and consumed by fire bombing in WW2, not having a location and cremation is apparently required. I learned more when we dropped my mother's ashes into a lake. I read from the Book of Alernative Services and BCP (Canadian), because I hadn't the faintest clue what else to do. My father talked of ashes needing to be "lost" in the world, and somehow, geology and stardust at once. Which makes me say again, dignity and comfort.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10829 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Why would a family need a member of the clergy to lead a service for the scattering of ashes if the deceased has already been cremated in a religious service?

Is it just that they want the scattering to be done in a dignified, sombre way, and a church minister is the most convenient choice for that?

Do you not offer a service for the interment of ashes before burial under the traditional rosebush? The same principle of ongoing commitment of the deceased to God's care and seeking the same ongoing support for the family and mourners.

If doing a scattering, choose a sheltered place. Friends wanted their daughter's ashes scattered from Middle Head, as she had been a keen sailor. As you might expect, the ashes went everywhere, including onto the clothes of of those attending. Many tears about brushing them off. If it is a breezy day, half-kneel so that you scatter close to the ground and sprinkle rather than scatter.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6615 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
If you put yourselves into the hands of experienced persons (these folks who sail out to the Golden Gate Bridge for instance) they will advise you. I am told that the captain of the vessel will advise you where and when, and also which side of the vessel to scatter from. This is the kind of knowledge gained only by experience.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5355 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, scatter from the lee side of a boat or bridge. Not as much choice about a building though.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6615 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

 - Posted      Profile for Pigwidgeon   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've been told that doing it from an airplane can be tricky too.

--------------------
Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

Posts: 9297 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Even burying ashes in a wind is difficult. There's a lot of light stuff that blows everywhere. A few years ago I used to cover for the physical stuff interring ashes when the church warden who usually did it was not available.

The first one was *interesting*, but it was only me who got the light coating of ash. Not helped by having to dive in and out the back door to collect the ashes from the funeral directors across the street, who fortunately knew me and allowed me to collect them, even though I wasn't a family member.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13479 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

 - Posted      Profile for fletcher christian   Email fletcher christian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's illegal in Ireland. Ashes must be buried in a container. That's not to say that people don't go ahead and scatter ashes anyway. I've a vague memory that ashes at sea must also be in a container, but I could be wrong on that front.

--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

Posts: 5165 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Yes, scatter from the lee side of a boat ...

...and in my case, hope that the Isle of Wight hydrofoil doesn't go past at high speed just as you've found a nice calm spot [Big Grin]

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6423 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am beginning to hope that the Archdeacon says No...

[Paranoid]

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

 - Posted      Profile for Pigwidgeon   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
...and in my case, hope that the Isle of Wight hydrofoil doesn't go past at high speed just as you've found a nice calm spot [Big Grin]

Well, at least that's one thing we'll never have to worry about in Arizona.
[Razz]

--------------------
Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

Posts: 9297 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The other thing about ashes is that they are divisible. You could split them into separate lots and do different things with them. This can become very complex. There was a guy here in the US whose friend, a noted plumber and a baseball fan, had passed away. The guy was make a trip to every major baseball park in the nation, and quietly flushing some of his friend's ashes into a commode there.
And we all remember Keith Richards, right? Huffing his father's ashes? This cannot be good for you, but Keith Richards is not famous for healthy behavior.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5355 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
How does concern about the "integrity of human remains" square with the practice of venerating the relics of saints? If it's OK for a saint's finger to be taken to one place, and a skull or a leg to another, why is it important not to divide someone's ashes?

And how it venerating the relics of a saint different from keeping Grandma on the mantelpiece?

Posts: 4744 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Even burying ashes in a wind is difficult.

Whenever I've done that the ashes have been contained in a casket.
Posts: 9216 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
How does concern about the "integrity of human remains" square with the practice of venerating the relics of saints? If it's OK for a saint's finger to be taken to one place, and a skull or a leg to another, why is it important not to divide someone's ashes?

And how it venerating the relics of a saint different from keeping Grandma on the mantelpiece?

Very good quesrion that I need to think about - of course, the C of E tends to frown upon relics though I venerate them.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23018 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827

 - Posted      Profile for Cathscats   Email Cathscats   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In these parts, I have to advise those who ask that the one place the scattering of ashes is forbidden is the cemetery! I think that is the local council looking for their pound of flesh (and yes, not a drop of blood!). So, officially you can't be scattered on Granny's grave. Officially. Which means not with me present. But what no one knows can't hurt....

--------------------
"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")

Posts: 144 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - I refuse, following C of E advice about the integrity of the human remains.

Bugger their advice, Mum wanted to be scattered into the River Wharfe so she was. It was even written into the Will. No way was I going back on that. She'd probably have haunted me.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17443 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I should note that I'm not really sold on the "burial in the churchyard gives the family a focus and reminds them to pray for the dead" thing - people are more mobile now than they used to be, and as far as I can see likely to become even more so.

So whilst you certainly do find people living next to the graves of their family going back to the 16th century, you also find a large number of people with no particular family connection to the place that they end their days, and all the children have long since moved away from wherever Grandma is buried, so there's nobody to keep up the grave.

Traditions are wonderful, but they need to bow to the necessities of a changing way of life.

Posts: 4744 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My wife, sister and I, in accordance with my aunt's wishes, mingled her ashes with those of her husband who had predeceased her, and poured them into the sea from some rocks on a Queensland beach.

The only other person in the party was a friend of hers, the bus driver from her retirement village.

He was a no-longer-young Roman Catholic, and recited the De Profundis in Latin from memory as we committed the couple's remains to the waves.

Posts: 3201 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - I refuse, following C of E advice about the integrity of the human remains.

Bugger their advice, as. It was even written into the Will. No way was I going back on that. She'd probably have haunted me.
But I am a man under authority.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23018 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
mingled her ashes with those of her husband

Without wishing to comment on personal wishes, that shows a faulty thology of marriage - they may be one flesh but they remain two souls

[ 02. July 2017, 17:01: Message edited by: leo ]

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23018 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm afraid leo is right. Those of us who are Blue-Scarfed-Menaces (aka Church of England licensed Lay Readers) are indeed under authority, and have sworn solemn oaths to our Bishop(s) to obey them in all things lawful.

Hence my (repeated) emphasis on waiting for instructions/guidance from the Archdeacon (aka Bishop's Rottweiler....).

I agree that there may sometimes be urgent pastoral reasons for not so waiting, but that is not the case here.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8673 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
mingled her ashes with those of her husband

Without wishing to comment on personal wishes, that shows a faulty thology of marriage - they may be one flesh but they remain two souls
You assume that her motive for wanting her ashes to be mingled with those of her husband was based on a theological understanding of marriage and "one flesh." That may or may not be the case. My guess would be the her motives were no different than the motives of married couples who want to be buried next to each other. She just wanted to be with her husband.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2442 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - I refuse, following C of E advice about the integrity of the human remains.

Bugger their advice, as. It was even written into the Will. No way was I going back on that. She'd probably have haunted me.
But I am a man under authority.
And I fancy myself a man of compassion, so I pray you never find yourself upon the horns of this dillema.

[ 02. July 2017, 20:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17443 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
You assume that her motive for wanting her ashes to be mingled with those of her husband was based on a theological understanding of marriage and "one flesh."

She was an atheist and her husband was a lapsed Roman Catholic
Posts: 3201 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814

 - Posted      Profile for Galloping Granny   Email Galloping Granny   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
New Zealand custom is to have the funeral in the church, with the coffin present. I remember one funeral where the eulogist addressed the deceased, which I think is a Maori custom. Then the close family go to the crematorium or burial; the committal may take place at the crematorium or grave side, or at the church before they leave (I remember the clergywoman planning the service gave me the option). For a non-church family the service often takes place at the crematorium.
My Dad's ashes sat in a cupboard for 16 years until I had an inspiration; I took them to the hills in Central Otago where he had spent his youthful holidays shooting bunnies.I scattered them above the lake where the ground in covered with wild thyme.
My mother-in-law brought her husband's ashes from Australia but wanted a grave site so that her ashes could be interred with his and have room for any other family ashes. My son is going to clean up the grave before his father's ashes can be interred – but I got the funeral director to keep a handful separate which we have scattered under his beloved olive tree.

--------------------
The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

Posts: 2599 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Our practice is to have the committal at the church. Very rarely does the family go to the crematorium - even with reasonable traffic it's a half hour each way and by not going they can go straight to the reception to meet people. I can't remember the last committal for a burial, indeed the last burial would have been over 20 years ago for a Greek Orthodox man. Any interment of ashes is a quiet and small ceremony for the family only and conducted after the main Sunday service. A deep and wide hole is ready dug, the ashes poured in from ground level, and a rose bush or other shrub is planted as the hole is refilled.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6615 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Cremation is very unusual here, with it being many hours' journey to the nearest crem. It is standard here for the minister to lead the coffining, funeral and burial usually within a few days of death as we don't have suitable facilities to store bodies safely.
Posts: 2786 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools