homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » Ashes to Ashes.... (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Ashes to Ashes....
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
You assume that her motive for wanting her ashes to be mingled with those of her husband was based on a theological understanding of marriage and "one flesh."

She was an atheist and her husband was a lapsed Roman Catholic
At least she hadn't had his ashes put into an egg-timer or, worse, mingled with snuff...

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6460 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thank you all for your comments. Our Archdeacon says, firmly, No. Ashes may not be scattered in the church grounds (it's not a graveyard as such, for there are no graves).

I'll suggest to our PCC that we apply forthwith for a faculty for the burial of ashes - AFAIK, we don't already have one - but that's not much comfort to the deceased's parents.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9416 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
With respect to the CofE order to not scatter*, I suspect many clergy unofficially do this using whatever parts of the funeral liturgy seem to suit.

* As I understood it, the reason was supposed to be pastoral, in that the mourners had no definite location or place to return to, knowing that there were no remains remaining, so to speak. And this could be A Bad Thing.

In a couple of council cemeteries of my acquaintance there used to be a special tree or area, where the celebrant could use a special scattering device to disperse the loved one.

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9955 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
With respect to the CofE order to not scatter*, I suspect many clergy unofficially do this using whatever parts of the funeral liturgy seem to suit.

* As I understood it, the reason was supposed to be pastoral, in that the mourners had no definite location or place to return to, knowing that there were no remains remaining, so to speak. And this could be A Bad Thing.

In a couple of council cemeteries of my acquaintance there used to be a special tree or area, where the celebrant could use a special scattering device to disperse the loved one.

But how does the 'no definite place' thing square with allowing the scattering of ashes at sea, then- because even if anyone kids themselves that it's the burial of ashes at sea, scattering is what it is, in practice.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6460 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, as I've said, my Archdeacon's answer was No - No Scattering Allowed On Church Grounds/Premises.

However, after a long pastoral chat with deceased's parents yesterday after church, one or two Good Ideas have emerged, which we shall explore over the next few weeks.....

*sigh*

Yet another Sin of Omission of our retired Father Fuckwit, who should have sorted this out over a year ago, soon after deceased died....

[Disappointed]

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9416 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At our church a certain large flower bed has been designated the Scattering Area. It is right by the main building, and so is unlikely to ever be redone into parking/playground/septic field, and it is always well-maintained with flowers, trees, etc. because you have to walk past it to get to the door. There is no sign or notice on the area -- if you want a plaque or a monument or something you should go to a real cemetery and get a niche. But it is quietly available if you ask. (This is also where the Altar Guild quietly ditches ruined or broken consecrated wafers. Our earth sink is temperamental and can accept only wine.)

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5791 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That's the way to do it - and we may eventually do the same (sans scattering - interment of ashes only), once we get a faculty (Church-of-England-speak for a sort of licence from the Archdemon....er....Archdeacon, or Bishop).

In the UK, Anglican parish churches are Public Places, so there are all sorts of Rules and Regulations as to what can or can't be done. The churches are not the private preserve of Father Fuckwit and/or his Churchwardens, whatever he/they might think.

If you think you detect some bitterness, you are right. It's Me wot is copping the fallout...

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9416 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530

 - Posted      Profile for stonespring     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think the RCC, at least, disallows scattering ashes or keeping them at home because, being a denomination that does many things that other people consider superstitious (and acknowledging that many sects it has deemed heretical or schismatic started with a disagreement over what was superstitious and what wasn't), the RCC feels a need to carefully monitor and police anything symbolic that people do in their private spiritual lives, even if the people doing think they are only following their own (and their loved one's) tastes and personality rather than expressing any unorthodox religious belief.

Also, since a lot of Protestant traditions are more rooted in beliefs, texts, and simple, (often) adaptable rituals, that means that it is easier for them to Christianize secular (and "spiritual but not religious") practices than the RCC, which in turn I believe has an advantage in Christianizing the religious traditions of non-Western converts (this is different than Christianizing Eastern, African, and Indigenous Spiritualities that have been adopted by Westerners, which I think Protestants who are neither too liberal or too fundamentalist have an advantage at, since they don't have to worry about how those practices are different from their own ritualisms (I say ritualism because I do not want to claim that Protestants do not have rituals)). That last sentence is a big tangent that can be debated on another thread. All of this means that in my opinion, the RCC is worried about westerners adopting practices of secular philosophies and spiritualities (or mere fads - although we know the de facto life of many RC priests and laypeople are full of doctrinally-questionable fads that the Vatican dislikes). Because RC doctrine is tied to very specific and elaborate rites, it thinks it is in more danger of losing adherents (or of its adherents' veering away from orthodox belief) if they begin to experiment with rites from other traditions, or rites of their own. This has led to quite a few overreactions from the RCC hierarchy over the centuries.

Posts: 1520 | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:


But how does the 'no definite place' thing square with allowing the scattering of ashes at sea, then- because even if anyone kids themselves that it's the burial of ashes at sea, scattering is what it is, in practice.

Does the CofE approve of the scattering of ashes at sea?

I would've assumed that the orthodox CofE response would've been 'no, we don't do that, because that's scattering of ashes which we disapprove of' or 'we can bury the body at sea', or 'intern the ashes on land'.

Maybe there's a navy chaplain on board Ship who can comment as to the official line!

Personally, I don't see the problem with scattered ashes, in principle. Any body that is in the earth or the ocean long enough eventually disintegrates to the point of complete dissolution anyway.

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9955 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Does the CofE approve of the scattering of ashes at sea?

Good question. My understanding was that burial of ashes at sea involved some kind of container (cf. coffin, weighted sailcloth,...) so that the ashes sank as one, vs the scattering of ashes.

Clearly, the C of E permits burial at sea.

Here's Canon B38 4(b):
quote:
(b) The ashes of a cremated body should be reverently disposed of by a minister in a churchyard or other burial ground in accordance with section 3 of the Church of England (Miscellaneous Provisions) Measure 1992 or on an area of land designated by the bishop for the purpose of this sub-paragraph or at sea.
clearly indicating that ashes may be buried at sea. I suspect that "scattering" fails to satisfy the requirements of "reverently disposed" whether on land or at sea.

[ 10. July 2017, 21:32: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posts: 4893 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
When I was a chaplain's assistant at the Missions to Seamen (as it then was) in Southampton 25 years ago- rather traditional chaplain, then in his 60s, originally CofI but with the Mission for almost all his ministry- the drill for disposal of ashes at sea was IIRC something like this:
Board pilot boat with chaplain and relatives; go out to designated point in Solent; chaplain robes, engine stops, ensign lowered to half mast; chaplain says some prayers on deck; assistant (i.e. me) kneels and reverently and carefully pours ashes out of container onto surface of water; possibly one more prayer; ensign raised, engine starts, chaplain goes below to disrobe, boat returns to harbour. Although the ashes were not scattered onto the water there's no doubt that they would be dispersed pretty quickly.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6460 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Really interesting to know that! [Smile]

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9955 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Indeed!

Latest on Deceased's Ashes (sounds like a fillum) - parents are thinking of having them scattered or interred on their own land i.e. garden, so I've said I'd be happy to conduct a short service for the occasion, if that's what they decide.

AIUI, it's quite OK to do this, though if they came to sell the house, they'd have to declare via the lawyers that human remains were present.

Is that right?

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9416 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Although the ashes were not scattered onto the water there's no doubt that they would be dispersed pretty quickly.

Interesting, thanks Albertus.

Do the ashes all sink immediately, or do some remain on the surface of the water?

Posts: 4893 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Indeed!

Latest on Deceased's Ashes (sounds like a fillum) - parents are thinking of having them scattered or interred on their own land i.e. garden, so I've said I'd be happy to conduct a short service for the occasion, if that's what they decide.

AIUI, it's quite OK to do this, though if they came to sell the house, they'd have to declare via the lawyers that human remains were present.

Is that right?

IJ

Everything depends upon the jurisdiction. Ask in the area where the house is. The simplest way to do this might be to phone or email a local funeral home or cemetery. Be sure and mention that you're only looking for information and not in the market for services.

Or, if you would tell me what state of the union (I trust it's the US) is in question, I can give you the contact number for the state's Cemetery Association. I have a database...

[ 12. July 2017, 17:34: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5791 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Although the ashes were not scattered onto the water there's no doubt that they would be dispersed pretty quickly.

Interesting, thanks Albertus.

Do the ashes all sink immediately, or do some remain on the surface of the water?

I think some, maybe most, remained on the surface, but I can't remember.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6460 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks, Brenda. I'm in the UK, but your suggestion is still apposite, and, before the Deceased's Parents come to a decision, I'll consult local authority etc.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9416 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Last time I did it it was in a wheat field overlooking a family's homestead just outside of town. To think the matriarch's ashes helped to nourish the wheat that is being produced in the field---and to think that that wheat has fed hungry people throughout the world... Powerful.

My folks' ashes will eventually be scattered up in the Sawtooth Mountains, in a meadow where the extended family would gather to cut firewood for their homes.

Our congregation has a rose garden where ashes can be scattered. So designated and approved by the city.

Posts: 2059 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
irreverend tod
Shipmate
# 18773

 - Posted      Profile for irreverend tod   Email irreverend tod   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hi Bishops, we just dug a hole, bunged ashes in minus the container and planted the tree on top. By the time we get to sell the house nothing will be left so I doubt if mas will fess up to planting pa in the garden.

FYI, and sorry to be late the discussion, the C of E also requires the whole load of ashes to be buried in one place. We had a burial of ashes where they had been split with the remainder scattered. We had to restrain father holy thing from digging up the interred remains in a state of canonical hysteria.

--------------------
Diocesan Arsonist and Lead thief to the Church of England.

Posts: 51 | From: England | Registered: May 2017  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think I've mentioned this before on a thread, but cremated ashes are not nutrients. People think they must be because you can buy bone meal for the garden. But bone meal is crushed and ground up animal bones, the residue after people have eaten the meat of the animals.

When a person is cremated, all the nutrients have gone up the chimney. What's left has nothing to give back to the soil.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7385 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, if you really want to return nutrients to the circle of life, put the phrase 'green burial' into the search window. Cremation is quite a different thing.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5791 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:


FYI, and sorry to be late the discussion, the C of E also requires the whole load of ashes to be buried in one place. We had a burial of ashes where they had been split with the remainder scattered. We had to restrain father holy thing from digging up the interred remains in a state of canonical hysteria.

[Big Grin] Father holy thing would, of course, have remembered that even interred ashes require a Home Office exhumation application!

Hoooh boy! Nearly been there, done that! Little old lady decided she didn't like where her husband's ashes had ended up; wanted the box back over ten years after it had gone into the graveyard. Thankfully she decided it wasn't worth the application and diocesan faculty fees, or the time and effort required.

It would arguably have been better if the ashes had been scattered - done and dusted (so to speak!). For some people having a physical resting place as focus for their loved one's remains is a good reason for not scattering. But for some folks, it can turn into a bit of an unhelpful obsession.

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9955 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
irreverend tod
Shipmate
# 18773

 - Posted      Profile for irreverend tod   Email irreverend tod   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Enoch, we bunged a tree over him to remember where he got planted. It was all done with due reverence and a load of well rotted manure, because pa reckoned the regulations of the church on burials were all bulls**t. Needless to say we didn't involve the clergy.

--------------------
Diocesan Arsonist and Lead thief to the Church of England.

Posts: 51 | From: England | Registered: May 2017  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I think I've mentioned this before on a thread, but cremated ashes are not nutrients.

The Calcium phosphates in bone ash are not very soluble, but probably would act as a source of phosphate for your plants if you have acidic soil.

All, in all, they'd make better china. (And I note that there is someone doing exactly that.)

Posts: 4893 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The number of things to do with cremains is very, very large. Coral reefs, jewelry, into orbit on a space ship, loaded into a firework -- there's dozens of businesses doing things. And then you have Keith Richards, snorting them.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5791 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

 - Posted      Profile for Oscar the Grouch     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And I heard recently about someone who is making them into pills, so that you can swallow the remains of your loved one.

--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

Posts: 3826 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That noise you just heard was me throwing up.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7385 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I can't remember if I've told this story on SoF before. But I work at a trade association in the funeral industry. I got a phone call earlier this summer from a woman whose dog had died. She said, "I'm really in grief." I said I was sorry to hear that. She said, "I had my dog cremated." I agreed this was a good thing. She said, "I've missed Fluffy so much, I've been opening the urn and sniffing the ashes."
At this point I ground to a halt. She was not interested in stopping. All she wanted to know was if she could get a disease from huffing her dog's ashes, like rabies. I said (true!) that the cremators go to over 1600 degrees and pathogens don't survive. But I did add that I didn't think it was a good idea.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5791 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Lucia

Looking for light
# 15201

 - Posted      Profile for Lucia     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The number of things to do with cremains is very, very large. Coral reefs, jewelry, into orbit on a space ship, loaded into a firework -- there's dozens of businesses doing things. And then you have Keith Richards, snorting them.

And another option...
All seems a bit weird to me.

Posts: 1066 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools