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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are young people put off church by vestments?
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thanks, Nick. I guessed Unitarian, but forgot about the universalist bit!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Let's face it, we all know the big Deceased Equine which keeps young people out of churches - I fear this is a deflection from churches who don't want to have to deal with it.
Are churches that take the "modern" line on that particular pony overflowing with young people, then? Because I can't say that I've particularly noticed it.
My recent experience is mostly with the US rather than the UK, but if I compare my TEC shack (women and gay-friendly) with the RC place down the street, I don't see much difference in the demographics. (My eldest sings in the RC church choir from time to time, so I have a reasonable feel for their normal crowd.)
There's a Presbyterian place that's considering un-chartering its Boy Scout troop because the Boy Scouts have become a little less disapproving of homosexuality, and a non-denominational modern megachurch-style place that's gay-affirming (big posters with rainbow flags etc.) I know those less well, but I don't see much difference in their demographics either.
And then there's the local UUs, who are very socially active (take part in Pride events, organize volunteers to escort women to abortion clinics, ...). I don't think I'd really describe their syncretic practices as Christian (and nor would they, necessarily), but that's rather beside the point, which is that they have a similar demographic mix as well.
No, my point was more that it keeps young people out of all churches generally - they're not going to bother trying to find inclusive ones, they just won't go anywhere.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I would say that vestment-using churches in the UK are far and away the majority.
Er ... no. You need to include Baptist, Methodist, New Church, Pentecostal, Brethren, Salvationist, Church of Scotland (etc.) in your totals, as well as subtracting non-vestment wearing Anglicans. And remember that a Reformed "preaching gown" or even a Low Church surplice is not a vestment!
By vestment-using churches I mean the denominations, not individual churches, sorry. But I would have included preaching gowns or Low Church surplices as vestments of a kind, along with SA uniforms etc. I would have thought that Anglican and RC churches physically outnumber the others, though? Just in terms of there being so many parish Anglican churches in places where there isn't any other church.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Firstly, I can see why anyone coming to church for the first time would find vestments strange. Probably would also be puzzled by the dress code of the congregation. Why do we largely dress as if going to a business meeting?
My impression is that 'Sunday best' holds for older churchgoers (who are in the great majority, of course) but for hardly anyone under middle age. The exception would be ethnic minority congregations, where members like to make more of an effort.
Read what I said. I said 'business smart' NOT Sunday Best. I know what Sunday Best is because it was what I was brought up in. It is wearing your smartest clothes that are specially kept for attending church. Business smart is dressing as you would do for a fairly formal work occasion. So a lower standard than Sunday Best. It is the closest I can get to the average dress of congregation. Yes strangers often stand out by the fact that they are too smartly dressed.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Let's face it, we all know the big Deceased Equine which keeps young people out of churches - I fear this is a deflection from churches who don't want to have to deal with it.
You may well be right, but what is the evidence in support of you statements?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Jengie jon
From my slobby perspective there's not really much difference!
Mind you, I've slowly realised that church is just too posh for me in general. Even those 'evangelical jeans' look expensive.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
From my slobby perspective there's not really much difference!
Don't know about in the UK, but in my part of the world, and outside of the African American community, there isn't much difference between standard business attire and Sunday best for men. For women, on the other hand, there can be quite a difference.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
I've been to business meetings where the really important people were much more casually dressed than their underlings. Since everyone who's anyone can afford a suit and tie, you show status by indicating the rules of dressing up don't apply to you.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I've swung from so low yoy can get under a thing that's really close to the ground and bells, smells and men in guilded frocks. My personal uniform has remained at the narrow black jeans (below 17C) and cargo shorts (warmer conditions) and black t-shirt with or without dragons, hard rock band or related image thereon that's always been what I weae when Not at Work, Not on ths Bike and Not on a Seriois Walk. It's never, IME told you much beyond the place's churchmanship. I've met great people and tossers everywhere.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've swung from so low yoy can get under a thing that's really close to the ground and bells, smells and men in guilded frocks. My personal uniform has remained at the narrow black jeans (below 17C) and cargo shorts (warmer conditions) and black t-shirt with or without dragons, hard rock band or related image thereon that's always been what I weae when Not at Work, Not on ths Bike and Not on a Seriois Walk. It's never, IME told you much beyond the place's churchmanship. I've met great people and tossers everywhere.
That'd be more interesting if you were the vicar.
Having spent quite a lot of time in congregations in Anglican Cathedrals, it seems that most of the time they're deliberately taking far less interest in the clothing of the congregation than many baptist/evangelical churches I've been to.
It almost seems that when the clergy have completely over-the-top garb, the focus moves off the congregation. Of course some get dressed up, but I've seen many in shorts, t-shirts and various other clothing.
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arse
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If you go to civic services and other uniformed services eg. St. George's Day, the clergy are the most under-dressed there!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
that's always been what I weae when Not at Work, Not on ths Bike and Not on a Seriois Walk.
My standard dress for church is clean jeans and t-shirt (in winter) and clean shorts and t-shirt (summer), usually accessorized with a small child. That's also my standard business attire (usually not with small child). If I'm an usher at church this week, I wear a suit (which I also do for work when I have to represent my employer in public).
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've swung from so low yoy can get under a thing that's really close to the ground and bells, smells and men in guilded frocks. My personal uniform has remained at the narrow black jeans (below 17C) and cargo shorts (warmer conditions) and black t-shirt with or without dragons, hard rock band or related image thereon that's always been what I weae when Not at Work, Not on ths Bike and Not on a Seriois Walk. It's never, IME told you much beyond the place's churchmanship. I've met great people and tossers everywhere.
That'd be more interesting if you were the vicar.
Interestingly, then, he wears pretty much the same, as it happens. I was going somewhere with all that but God alone knows where now. I think I was making a point about my bewilderment with the concept of Sunday Best. Mind, I'm also bewildered by the concept of Business Attire. But then I'm pretty much bewildered by people. If I had any points, they were (a) that what people wear often tells you naff all beyond their music tastes and whether they're the sort of person who thinks what they wear tells you something about them (which is a bit meta), (b) that I have a long standing conflict with the Neurotypical world and its external unspoken signalling thing, (c) that posts made on phones are rather slower than even my Pooh Bear brain and I lose track, (d) they always end up full of typos, and (e) if the hospital don't sort out Dad's discharge soon the psych wing will need a bed for me.
[ 20. July 2017, 07:42: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If you go to civic services and other uniformed services eg. St. George's Day, the clergy are the most under-dressed there!
I treat them much as Superman does Kryptonite. The Orcspawn sometimes have to go because Scouts, but Mrs Backslider and I generally nip off to the sort of coffee shop we daren't take the Orcspawn to.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
What, you have time to go all the way to Amsterdam and back? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
What, you have time to go all the way to Amsterdam and back?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) , no, anywhere with tablecloths. We run a book on how long it will be until one of them spills something all over it, not []iwhether[/i].
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
IMO churches should do what's right for them.
I wanted to return to this statement, since it was implied above that it didn't 'stand up to scrutiny'.
I do tend to the view that a diversity of churches is healthy for Christianity, which does indeed mean that churches need to do what's right for their own constituency and their own context.
But this isn't just my view. There are scholars who posit a theory of religious economy. This refers to:
quote:
religious persons and organizations interacting within a market framework of competing groups and ideologies. An economy makes it possible for religious suppliers to meet the demands of different religious consumers. By offering an array of religions and religious products, a competitive religious economy stimulates such activity in a market-type setting.
In the context of this thread, the above perspective would recognise that for some Christians vestments may be a problem, while other Christians they won't. So we need churches which satisfy both groups. Otherwise, one group will be uncatered for, and may reduce its level of religious engagement as a result.
Some academics don't accept the idea of the religious economy. One argument against it is that pluralism undermines religion because it's easier to dismiss a range of competing truths than to dismiss one powerful and culturally all-encompassing one.
From the perspective of the historical denominations, lots of religious competition may also be perceived as negative. It'd be easier to control disgruntled members if a monopoly church (or a mutually reinforcing historical mainstream) meant they couldn't just waltz off to other churches, or even start their own. A religious market creates losers as well as winners.
In reality, AIUI, the national success or failure of religious competition versus that of a religious monopoly depends on various factors. The British case shows how secularisation has of course damaged most British churches, but many of the smaller, competing churches have suffered far more than the CofE.
The CofE seems to have absorbed various practices and theologies from a range of sources, and arguably reduced the need for other denominations to exist (except as an ongoing source of ideas and manpower). The religious market theorists would claim that the CofE's established status means that in the long term its Nonconformist and more recent evangelical challengers were never going to be as dynamic as they could be as a result. The CofE would always make the best use of what other Christian movements offered, and would come out on top.
However, if the CofE now benefits from its own diverse internal 'market', this means that any move to insist on formality, or tradition, or whatever else the wearing of distinctive clergy garments implies, this might well stimulate an exodus from the denomination. To judge from the Ship, and from the Church's new ruling on vestments, the CofE doesn't want this to happen.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
All this time I thought young people were put off church by hypocrisy.
And its weirdness.
And the early hours.
And the preaching.
And the religion.
And the geographical location.
And the music.
And the language.
And the fanatics.
And the apathetics.
And the tedium.
And the way they get ignored when they do go.
And the way they get pounced on when they do go.
And the way people dress up.
And the way people don't make an effort to dress appropriately.
And..... [insert any one of a few thousand reasons young people - or any people for that matter give - for not bothering with church.]
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just so. It amazes me, every Sunday, that Our Place manages to get any congregation at all, no matter how large, small, young, or old...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just so. It amazes me, every Sunday, that Our Place manages to get any congregation at all, no matter how large, small, young, or old...
IJ
Ah, the triumph of hope over experience!
(Not necessarily meaning your church, of course, just the principle.)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think I was making a point about my bewilderment with the concept of Sunday Best.
I have noticed that older people, particularly the elderly who don't go out in the evenings, rarely get the chance to dress up once they have retired. So church on Sundays is a regular chance to do so and to wear some of those special, little used clothes. Perhaps if younger people understood this, whilst not being made to feel that they, too, must dress up, then it would be easier for them to feel they belong.
There's a tendency for people to dress up even for Christenings now and you can see the discomfort, for those not used to wearing suits, at feeling they must - just like at weddings, there is this misunderstanding that you have to when going to church, just as if you were going to court!
This notice should be pinned up outside every church in the country
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I find that notice rather worthy, to be honest. And very long. It also gives the 'regular' congregation a lot to live up to.
But do I agree that churches ought to provide more information on their noticeboards.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I rather think that Coventry Cathedral have recently had their irony-o-meter recalibrated!
I agree with the sentiments, though.
Re christenings - yes, we've noticed at Our Place that people tend to really make an effort to dress up (one young Mum - tall enough already, in all honesty - tottered in on 9-inch heels, and wearing a skirt which was really just a wide belt ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ).
A former churchwarden acidly (and, IMHO, rather unkindly) remarked that all this sartorial extravagance was to make up for the wedding that hadn't happened (yet), but I sort of saw her point.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I imagine that with her wearing those heels and that skirt, that wasn't all you saw. But perhaps you are well practiced in exercising custody of the eyes.
I rather like it that people feel the urge to dress up like that. Bit of glam, especially, never did any service any harm.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I imagine that with her wearing those heels and that skirt, that wasn't all you saw. But perhaps you are well practiced in exercising custody of the eyes.
I rather like it that people feel the urge to dress up like that. Bit of glam, especially, never did any service any harm.
Yes. Whether you like the aesthetics or not, they are saying "I recognise this as being important."
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I find that notice rather worthy, to be honest. And very long. It also gives the 'regular' congregation a lot to live up to.
But do I agree that churches ought to provide more information on their noticeboards.
A long-standing and locally famous notice in a Catholic church in Ipswich - not sure sure about the bit on the right, but then I'm not RC! THe PP is lovely, by the way,
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, the bit on the right does seem to detract somewhat from the welcome to turbulent little ones, but I expect the church (and its PP) has its reasons.
@Albertus, the young Mum in the heels and very short skirt was actually drop-dead gorgeous.
Or so I am told. I, of course, didn't notice, as the episcopal eyes were modestly downcast....
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If you think the first notice linked to was too long and the second one too short, then here is an appropriately Goldilocksian 'just right'. I took a copy of it, but unfortunately forgot to record from whence it came.
"BEWARE! Here we practise the inclusive Gospel of Jesus Christ. This means you may be mixing with tax-collectors, sinners, adulterers, hypocrites, Greeks, Jews, women and well as men, female and male priests, homosexuals, lesbians, the disabled, dying thieves and other sinners. Black people, Asians and other ethnic minorities, Muslims, Bishops, bigots, peoples of other faiths, strangers from Rome and Nigeria, heretics, etc., etc. Even you, dear guest, are welcome. In fact, anyone like those whom Jesus mixed with. So beware, this is not a private club! Welcome to ALL."
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thanks for that, Chorister!
I've saved it, ready to print out, and display at Our Place. Alas, I can't do so at the moment, as we still (officially) don't acknowledge women priests as priests....
That Official Line may, of course, eventually change... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
"BEWARE! Here we practise the inclusive Gospel of Jesus Christ. This means you may be mixing with tax-collectors, sinners, adulterers, hypocrites, Greeks, Jews, women and well as men, female and male priests, homosexuals, lesbians, the disabled, dying thieves and other sinners. Black people, Asians and other ethnic minorities, Muslims, Bishops, bigots, peoples of other faiths, strangers from Rome and Nigeria, heretics, etc., etc. Even you, dear guest, are welcome. In fact, anyone like those whom Jesus mixed with. So beware, this is not a private club! Welcome to ALL."
This notice emphasises tolerance, which is useful to many, but who's going to admit to being a bigot?
The unspoken message is that if you suspect you may be taken for a bigot, this probably isn't the church for you. Unless you're keen to have those tendencies knocked out of you!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If you think the first notice linked to was too long and the second one too short, then here is an appropriately Goldilocksian 'just right'.
Sorry, but that one is a turn-off to me. Too long and monotonous. Too many words, and somewhat hard to read, imo. It's trying too hard.
And personally, while I get the point, I'd never start anything meant to be welcoming with "Beware!"
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Nick Tamen and Svitlana, I challenge you to do better!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I suppose I was asking for that!
I don't mind the main RC notice. It doesn't try to achieve too much or make grand claims for the church.
The addendum could be made a little more polite. E.g.:
'Please remember that we don't take communion in the hands.'
As for the other one, I think it just needs to project a little more humility. Maybe something along these lines:
'St Mary's is an inclusive church which tries to provide an encouraging setting for people from all walks of life and at all stages of faith - or none. Jesus mixed with imperfect people like us, and like you!
YOU ARE WELCOME HERE.'
I'm not sure about 'encouraging setting'. Others might prefer a more assertive tone overall.
[ 09. August 2017, 17:29: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SL52
Apprentice
# 18810
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Posted
Archbishop Maurice Couve de Murville of Birmingham used to say that the Catholic church was a "Church for sinners - which is why you and I are so happy in it!!"
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Sine phantasia quaedam vita sit peccatum
Posts: 1 | From: France | Registered: Jul 2017
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Welcome aboard, SL52, and thank you for a timely reminder!
Our Place used to have a great big notice in the porch enjoining SILENCE! i.e. before the service. Our late churchwarden replaced it with a new notice, when he took office, saying simply WELCOME!
Much better, IMHO.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Our Place used to have a great big notice in the porch enjoining SILENCE!
Very much of its time. I remember, as a small child, being led into church and reminded to whisper. It was God's house and therefore a special privilege to be there, we were to treat it with great respect, as you would a precious jewel.
Times have changed now - this feeling of awe and wonder leading to hushed tones isn't something I've seen for a long time.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Parents need to teach children how to be quiet and be still -- at home. Start with five minutes. Give rewards. Build up the time. Church shouldn't be the only and first time a child is expected to behave respectfully and quietly.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Our Place used to have a great big notice in the porch enjoining SILENCE!
Very much of its time. I remember, as a small child, being led into church and reminded to whisper. It was God's house and therefore a special privilege to be there, we were to treat it with great respect, as you would a precious jewel.
Times have changed now - this feeling of awe and wonder leading to hushed tones isn't something I've seen for a long time.
I once came across:
quote:
Enter this door
as if the floor
within were gold;
and every wall
of jewels all
of wealth untold;
as if a choir,
in robes of fire,
were singing here;
nor shout, nor rush,
but hush
for God is here.
I find it quite lovely.
As for extolling silence, this features heavily in our Divine Liturgy where the deacon repeatedly exhorts the people to silence (I count five times), referring as much to the silence of the heart at pivotal moments as it does any reduction in soundwaves.
[ 11. August 2017, 00:21: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Yes, that's nice, but do you mind if I don't enthuse about it quite so much? Back when I was growing up in the 1950s, so much emphasis was put on such a sense, that it was very easy for a child to pick up the notion that the core of the Christian faith was about the caring for holy stonework, that God really cared about the difference between Early English, Decorated and Perpendicular architecture.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think I was making a point about my bewilderment with the concept of Sunday Best.
I have noticed that older people, particularly the elderly who don't go out in the evenings, rarely get the chance to dress up once they have retired. So church on Sundays is a regular chance to do so and to wear some of those special, little used clothes. Perhaps if younger people understood this, whilst not being made to feel that they, too, must dress up, then it would be easier for them to feel they belong.
There's a tendency for people to dress up even for Christenings now and you can see the discomfort, for those not used to wearing suits, at feeling they must - just like at weddings, there is this misunderstanding that you have to when going to church, just as if you were going to court!
This notice should be pinned up outside every church in the country
*I* regularly get the "chance" (I consider it more an unwelcome requirement) to "dress up". Doesn't make me want to for church. In my perfect world my wardrobe would consist entirely of comfortable black narrow jeans, cargo shorts and black t-shirts with a range of heavy rock band logos, dragons and similar on them, and never an expectation that I wear anything else, bar where required for function - walking and cycling. Formal clothing to me means "stuff I hate but sometimes am forced to wear and resent having to part with brass for". If one day I can have a bonfire of suits, ties and especially throat-bats I'll dance around it laughing maniacally.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
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# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yes, that's nice, but do you mind if I don't enthuse about it quite so much? Back when I was growing up in the 1950s, so much emphasis was put on such a sense, that it was very easy for a child to pick up the notion that the core of the Christian faith was about the caring for holy stonework, that God really cared about the difference between Early English, Decorated and Perpendicular architecture.
Whereas is you've been to the church I grew up in, you would've heard Revelation preached enough times, to know it was a reference to the construction of the heavenly kingdom (streets and city made of gold and jewels) and that the idea was you treated coming to church like a trip to a holy place like heaven (yeah, well....). Not much in the way of either early English or perpindicular where I grew up (sadly!). Very low, very modern, very undecorated!
I fear, however, that the exhortation to keep silence would've just been further excuse for the censorious old biddies to give my mum even more disapproving looks and instructions not to bring those kids in here! Glad things have moved on in many churches.
I do love that little quote, though.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
God really cared about the difference between Early English, Decorated and Perpendicular architecture.
So God doesn't care for Norman (architecturally speaking)? Is Outrage.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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keibat
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# 5287
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Posted
Pomona objected:
quote:
The chasuble is illegal in the Church in Ireland.
Maybe. A C-of-I priest I know moved to a job in the C-of-E where a chasuble was expected, and commented that it was the first time he'd ever worn one. He seems to have got used to the idea :-)
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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Higgs Bosun
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# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
God really cared about the difference between Early English, Decorated and Perpendicular architecture.
So God doesn't care for Norman (architecturally speaking)? Is Outrage.
A friend of mine at university studied architecture. He did a project on a Saxon church, and told me that his supervisor for the project considered that there were four periods in architecture: early Saxon, middle Saxon, late Saxon and modern.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
I grew up in a low (Lutheran) church where the pastor wore a black robe with a surplus and stole. Then, in the late 60's there was a noticeable shift to an alb with stole and, on high festival days a chasuble,
I like the use of visuals to help get the message across. Marshall McCuhan once wrote the media is the message. There hot forms of media and cool forms of media. Now, I would grant that one can overdress with vestments, but one can also detract from the message by underdressing. Vestments with simple symbols that everyone can identify helps promote the message--like a dove on a red chasuble helps to emphasize the message of Pentecost
What I do find helpful is to explain the why of certain vestments and symbols. Kids seem to be intrigued with the stories behind the robes.
My research tells me that millennials appreciate the depth of a well-done liturgy. This includes modest vestments.
But there are also times when informal worship calls for street clothing.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285
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Posted
I find it very strange to hear again that the chasuble is illegal in the Church of Ireland.
I recently discovered interesting pictures of an ordination in Cork Cathedral,C.of I.
The bishop wears not only mitre and staff,but also the chasuble, red and on another occasion. white.
Even Belfast Cathedral is using the chasuble.
One of my friends told me recently that the Irish Anglicans have copied these liturgical customs from the US Episcopal Church.
I have to assume that C.of I.has changed its rather outdated canons/laws.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
... One of my friends told me recently that the Irish Anglicans have copied these liturgical customs from the US Episcopal Church. ...
It's possible I suppose, but there are three other churches in the Anglican Communion that are rather nearer.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I find it very strange to hear again that the chasuble is illegal in the Church of Ireland.
I recently discovered interesting pictures of an ordination in Cork Cathedral,C.of I.
The bishop wears not only mitre and staff,but also the chasuble, red and on another occasion. white.
Even Belfast Cathedral is using the chasuble.
One of my friends told me recently that the Irish Anglicans have copied these liturgical customs from the US Episcopal Church.
I have to assume that C.of I.has changed its rather outdated canons/laws.
The Canons appear to be much the same! However, undoubtedly there is a small number of churches who do use cassock-albs and chasubles etc. Stoles over a surplice are also a more common sight than they ever used to be when I were a lad.
I think the main influence - which isn't to say that the USA Episcopal Church hasn't been an influence - has been the regular importing of CofE clergy from across the water. There is a fairly large contingent of ex-CofE clergy ministering in Ireland. So perhaps not so much copying of other churches going on, more taking on board imported customs of newly-arrived ministers.
Plus, there has been an increasing native tendency to include vestments. Or at least to not object to their use.
The Bishop of Cork (an Irishman) and Cathedral staff there are relatively liberal catholic style, compared to the usual conservative, low church expression common to most CofI places. In Belfast, St George's is the notoriously high end of the candle. The rector at St George's, an Ulsterman, very happily of the CofI; and under its current Rector, an Ulsterman, proudly maintains its reputation for 'paper wall' high church Anglicanism.
I'm interested to hear of St Anne's indulging in chasubles!
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