homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » 'Gaelic Blessing' (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: 'Gaelic Blessing'
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I expect many people have run into what is known as the Gaelic Blessing, or the Irish Blessing. It's said to be traditional:

May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face;
the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of His hand.

Is it traditional though? Where does it come from? When did it first appear? Does anyone actually use it as a blessing?

I've been asked once to use it as the final blessing at a funeral, and once at a school service. Personally, I don't regard it as a blessing and suspect that it has its origins in the 1980s with the Irish Tourist Board, or something of the kind. But I may be wrong.

And then there's the Apache Wedding Blessing, which seems to have been written by a guy named Larry from New Jersey, or someone like that.

Are these folk religion? New Agery? Ersatz? I'd be interested in hearing others' views and experiences, and where other people put their foot down.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7653 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I expect many people have run into what is known as the Gaelic Blessing, or the Irish Blessing. It's said to be traditional:

Wikipedia on this topic might be correct.

I think it's OK as a blessing. It's a bit blah, but it's OK. For what it's worth, I've heard it as a blessing in a TEC context from time to time. I don't think I've heard it used as a final blessing, but I have heard it used in the context of prayers and blessing of a family who is moving away.

In general, I'm not sure its origins are important. What does it say? If it says what you want to say, does it matter if the Irish Tourist Board said it first?

[ 20. July 2017, 13:51: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posts: 4893 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes but that is about a different text. There seems to be some info on this thread on another forum.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20710 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The "Gaelic Blessing" set to music by John Rutter etc. appears in David Adam's The Edge of Glory where he attributes it to the Iona Community. They describe it as "a traditional Celtic blessing".

The "Irish Blessing"
quote:
“May the road rise to meet you
May the wind be always at your back
May the sun shine warm upon your face
The rains fall soft upon your fields
And until we meet again
May God hold you
In the palm of His hand.”

often also described as 'ancient' and/or 'traditional' is attributed to, and acknowledged by the Rev Dr Richard J Krecjir who,
quote:
In a pinch and no internet then… needed to come up with something … at All Saints Church, Carmel, California, in 1982 for a youth Irish party and dance, evangelism event at The Mission Ranch Restaurant and dance barn in Carmel, Ca. … He took Numbers 6:24 and merged it with a Gaelic "Go n-éiri an bóthar leat," which means may success be with you, also a Celtic blessing…”


[ 20. July 2017, 15:30: Message edited by: BroJames ]

Posts: 3277 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
american piskie
Shipmate
# 593

 - Posted      Profile for american piskie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:


I've been asked once to use it as the final blessing at a funeral,


As we left my mother's funeral, at which her parish minister had done exactly this, one of my brothers asked plaintively whether we hadn't made it clear we wanted a Christian service.


You should have posted this in Another Place.

Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

 - Posted      Profile for Anselmina     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:


I've been asked once to use it as the final blessing at a funeral,


As we left my mother's funeral, at which her parish minister had done exactly this, one of my brothers asked plaintively whether we hadn't made it clear we wanted a Christian service.


You should have posted this in Another Place.

Not that I disagree entirely with you, but what is particularly unChristian about asking God to hold you in the palm of his hand, which is at least scriptural?

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

Posts: 9955 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663

 - Posted      Profile for MrsBeaky   Author's homepage   Email MrsBeaky   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My brother had me read this at his wedding at Brecon Cathedral. It was the final prayer during the prayers slot not the final blessing as I am not clergy....
Despite the fact that it is a bit twee, we are half Irish and as we'd nearly lost said brother to cancer it was all rather moving.
My voice cracked on the last line. [Hot and Hormonal]

--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."

http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

Posts: 669 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

 - Posted      Profile for Og, King of Bashan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
The "Irish Blessing"
quote:
“May the road rise to meet you
May the wind be always at your back
May the sun shine warm upon your face
The rains fall soft upon your fields
And until we meet again
May God hold you
In the palm of His hand.”

often also described as 'ancient' and/or 'traditional' is attributed to, and acknowledged by the Rev Dr Richard J Krecjir who,
quote:
In a pinch and no internet then… needed to come up with something … at All Saints Church, Carmel, California, in 1982 for a youth Irish party and dance, evangelism event at The Mission Ranch Restaurant and dance barn in Carmel, Ca. … He took Numbers 6:24 and merged it with a Gaelic "Go n-éiri an bóthar leat," which means may success be with you, also a Celtic blessing…”

Is there any independent confirmation of this, other than that one Facebook post? I googled "Richard Krecjir Irish Blessing" and came up with one page worth of results, all of which were an identical comment cut and paste into discussions on blog posts about the Irish Blessing.

It could be true, but I've spent a lot of time in bars having beers with people with the gift of the gab, and my bullshit detector is going nuts right now.

--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3152 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have been occasionally asked to use this at weddings or funerals. I invariably follow it up with "and the blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit be upon you and remain with you always. Amen".

There are worse things. I incline to the view that if the rest of the liturgy is basically all right it can't be compromised by a bit of mawkish poetry chosen by the family. People take comfort in all sorts of weird and wonderful things and as long as it's not the lyrics of their favourite track by Cradle of Filth, or some such, I think we can roll with it.

People nowadays are relatively ignorant about Christianity, and I don't think that they can be educated by the clergy wagging the big waggy finger of disapproval.

I mainly object to being mucked around by funeral directors, most of whom are excellent, but some of whom could be poured into their suits if they were any slacker; and the clergy. I once found myself assisting at a funeral where the officiant had agreed that the Bible reading could be substituted by "death is nothing at all". The family don't want a Bible reading, I was assured. I slotted one in anyway, just before the intercessions, and the family didn't bat an eyelid. The clergyman concerned was later sent to prison. The fact that this wasn't taken into consideration when sentence was given has always struck me as being something of a miscarriage of justice.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9702 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Credit where credit's due though. It was written by the Revd Richard Krecjir in 1982 in Carmel, California. Just as the Apache Wedding Blessing is apparently out of a Western novel called 'Blood Brother' by Elliott Arnold. Neither of them is either Irish or Apache.

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7653 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Where I am, the Deep Peace blessing is more prevalent in churches, both as a sung piece and as a benediction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eve2y-P-Zjk

I suspect, both Gaelic blessings would best be described as modern paraphases of Celtic spirituality, which is more nuanced, that its eager proponents would suggest. Most "Celtic" Christian proponents have an axe to grind with Augustine, and see Celtic Christianity as a happy, less sin-obsessed, more nature loving version of medieval Catholicism. Any cursory glance at the Irish Penitentials would pour cold water on such a characterization.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4292 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Neither of them is either Irish or Apache.

That's ok - Adam's stuff isn't really "Celtic" in any meaningful snse of the word.

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6916 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

 - Posted      Profile for Og, King of Bashan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Credit where credit's due though. It was written by the Revd Richard Krecjir in 1982 in Carmel, California.

No, I was able to confirm with a quick Google search that this story is 100% bullshit.

How do I know? First, we have a 1973 Wayne Newton record, May the Road Rise to Meet You. The chorus is the Irish blessing.

I also found a biography of Faulkner that indicates that his mother wrote him a letter around 1960, saying that she had just seen these words.

I'm sure you can find earlier references, but I'm satisfied. Myth: Busted.

--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3152 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
We had some freaky thing called the Cherokee Prayer at my Dad's funeral. I haven't got a clue where i came from, though I darkly suspect an email multiply forwarded. I had nothing to say to what went into the funeral, which also included kilted bagpipe players and a luau theme (we kids resisted and dressed in ordinary black).

(I am dreadfully suspicious of anything that starts out "O Great Spirit." It seems to me just the sort of mushy-wushy pseudo-spiritual thing that your average dude from New Jersey (or wherever) would add to his own composition to make it sound "Indianish."

FWIW, we are partly Cherokee. But we lost our heritage due to a generation that tried desperately to hide it.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hmm. Kudos. Clearly right. I wonder why/ how Richard Krecjir comes to claim it? [Paranoid]
Posts: 3277 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

 - Posted      Profile for Oscar the Grouch     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Credit where credit's due though. It was written by the Revd Richard Krecjir in 1982 in Carmel, California.

No, I was able to confirm with a quick Google search that this story is 100% bullshit.

How do I know? First, we have a 1973 Wayne Newton record, May the Road Rise to Meet You. The chorus is the Irish blessing.

I also found a biography of Faulkner that indicates that his mother wrote him a letter around 1960, saying that she had just seen these words.

I'm sure you can find earlier references, but I'm satisfied. Myth: Busted.

Also - my first encounter with the blessing came through Noel Paul Stookey (of Peter, Paul and Mary fame). On his 1977 live album "Real to Reel", he closes the concert by singing a version of the blessing.

I don't know exactly how old it is, but it is certainly older than 1977!

--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

Posts: 3826 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965

 - Posted      Profile for Basilica   Email Basilica   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'd say around a quarter of my baptisms include a family member (almost invariably a grandmother) reading the "Gaelic/Irish/Celtic Blessing".

I always include it with the rest of the prayers. The sentiments are perfectly nice, if a little trite, and far better than the "Dear Granny, we're so glad you've gone to Heaven and turned into a star" stuff that I so often hear at funerals...

Posts: 397 | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

 - Posted      Profile for Og, King of Bashan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Hmm. Kudos. Clearly right. I wonder why/ how Richard Krecjir comes to claim it? [Paranoid]

Gift of the gab, as they say. Probably started as a joke, but got out of hand. When I was a tour guide, we had a guy on staff who was infamous for making crap up off the cuff and passing it out as good history. The joke was that one day, he decided that his tour was too dull, and added one fib to spice things up. By the end of the day, he had forgotten that it was a fib rather than a regular part of the tour, and he would feel the need to add a new fib. Multiply that by five years on the job, and you have one heck of a tour.

--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3152 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cottontail

Shipmate
# 12234

 - Posted      Profile for Cottontail   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was at an ordination service once, where the person leading worship had been called in at the last minute, and was therefore somewhat unprepared. She decided to ad lib the Irish Blessing at the end, but it came out thusly:
quote:
May the road rise to meet you,
and the sun shine on your fields;
May the wind be always in your face
and the rain fall on your back ...

Thus delivering what was effectively a parting curse. [Devil]

--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

Posts: 2372 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Hmm. Kudos. Clearly right. I wonder why/ how Richard Krecjir comes to claim it? [Paranoid]

Given that both you and Amos, the other person to cite the story, spelled his name "Krecjir," as did the link you posted, but a little googling showed that his name is "Krejcir", I wonder whether he ever actually made the claim.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2551 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

 - Posted      Profile for Og, King of Bashan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Only one way to find out. Some California based shipmate is going to have to mystery worship his place, misquote the Blessing to him, and see how he reacts.

--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3152 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Hmm. Kudos. Clearly right. I wonder why/ how Richard Krecjir comes to claim it? [Paranoid]

Because he's one of the O'Krecjir's of County Offaly.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6769 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Hmm. Kudos. Clearly right. I wonder why/ how Richard Krecjir comes to claim it? [Paranoid]

Given that both you and Amos, the other person to cite the story, spelled his name "Krecjir," as did the link you posted, but a little googling showed that his name is "Krejcir", I wonder whether he ever actually made the claim.
No, that's my fault. Finger dyslexia (i.e. not typing letters in the right order) and a failure properly to remember how to spell a name I don't know how to say. [Frown]

[ 21. July 2017, 05:51: Message edited by: BroJames ]

Posts: 3277 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It definitely existed before the 1980s, but so far I've only found books which contain it dating from the 1970s.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814

 - Posted      Profile for Galloping Granny   Email Galloping Granny   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know a woman cleric who always uses the 'Deep peace' thing.
Unfortunately if there was an elocution segment when she trained she didn't absorb any of it. She declaims it as 'Deepeace of the running wave....etc' I know her well enough to have once tried to get her to emphasise the 'deep' – well, someone has chosen to use an original expression, and I can feel the intention of the choice of word. But she didn't know what I was talking about. So we're stuck with 'Deepeace'.

GG

--------------------
The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

Posts: 2608 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38

 - Posted      Profile for Honest Ron Bacardi   Email Honest Ron Bacardi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
"Da peace o' da runnin' wave innit..."

Rutter's musical version is a modestly popular request for weddings, though I have never come across it in funerals or baptisms as Wikipedia asserts. Probably a local custom difference. The piece is usually referred to as The Garlic Blessing by choir members who have a low tolerance for mawkishness.

--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic

Posts: 4804 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643

 - Posted      Profile for dj_ordinaire   Author's homepage   Email dj_ordinaire   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Hmm. Kudos. Clearly right. I wonder why/ how Richard Krecjir comes to claim it? [Paranoid]

Because he's one of the O'Krecjir's of County Offaly.
Well, if Barack Obama is from Offaly I don;t see whyRichard Krejcir can't be... (seriously - he even has a Plaza named after him in Moneygall...).

--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...

Posts: 10323 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It definitely existed before the 1980s, but so far I've only found books which contain it dating from the 1970s.

Substantial elements of it are quoted in William Faulkner and Southern History by Joel Williamson as having been sent to Faulkner by his mother in 1960 or earlier.
Posts: 3277 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

 - Posted      Profile for mark_in_manchester   Email mark_in_manchester   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I thought I ought to look this up, but I see it only dates to 1986.

Still, maybe it would do for the recessional.

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1543 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Hmm. Kudos. Clearly right. I wonder why/ how Richard Krecjir comes to claim it? [Paranoid]

Because he's one of the O'Krecjir's of County Offaly.
Well, if Barack Obama is from Offaly I don;t see whyRichard Krejcir can't be... (seriously - he even has a Plaza named after him in Moneygall...).
I was also relying upon the said name rather than the written.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6769 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Amos

Shipmate
# 44

 - Posted      Profile for Amos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
I know a woman cleric who always uses the 'Deep peace' thing.
Unfortunately if there was an elocution segment when she trained she didn't absorb any of it. She declaims it as 'Deepeace of the running wave....etc' I know her well enough to have once tried to get her to emphasise the 'deep' – well, someone has chosen to use an original expression, and I can feel the intention of the choice of word. But she didn't know what I was talking about. So we're stuck with 'Deepeace'.

GG

I've heard children warned not to say 'Deep heat.'

--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7653 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

 - Posted      Profile for fletcher christian   Email fletcher christian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A very similar form of it does exist in old Irish, the use of which I have a feeling died out before the 1980's. Did it make an appearance in Carmichael's Carmina Gadelica?

--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

Posts: 5216 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278

 - Posted      Profile for Oblatus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
"Da peace o' da runnin' wave innit..."

Rutter's musical version is a modestly popular request for weddings, though I have never come across it in funerals or baptisms as Wikipedia asserts. Probably a local custom difference. The piece is usually referred to as The Garlic Blessing by choir members who have a low tolerance for mawkishness.

I heard Rutter himself acknowledge that the choirboy's version is "A Garlic Dressing."
Posts: 3820 | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It seems to have appeared in the revival of so called "Celtic" worship about 20 years ago ("God bless my little cow and all that").

It may say something but not in the way I want to say it, so I don't use it.

As for anything by John Rutter .... I was put off by his setting for Communion back in the 1970's. Yuk.

Posts: 3759 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why does "Celtic spirituality " never mean the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster?

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3180 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Two answers both of which contribute based on Scotland. First, it almost was at one stage. If I recall Ian Bradley correctly the 'Celtic revival' in Scotland in the late 19th Century saw Columba as a good Presbyterian Boyo.

Secondly, Alexander Carmichael the compiler of the Carmina Gadilica deliberately repudiated his Presbyterian upbringing in favour of the Catholicism in the Western Isles* which led to a perception of the tradition only going through the Roman Catholic lineage.

Jengie

*I think this is Scottish Roman Catholicism which even in the late twentieth century had subtle differences of form from Irish Roman Catholicism. I presume down to milieux.

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20710 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Why does "Celtic spirituality " never mean the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster?

Ulster Protestantism has its origin in the lowlands, and hence is culturally Anglo-Saxon rather than Celtic. Or because Calvin wasn't a celt. Take your pick [Biased] .
Posts: 2858 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
I know a woman cleric who always uses the 'Deep peace' thing.
Unfortunately if there was an elocution segment when she trained she didn't absorb any of it. She declaims it as 'Deepeace of the running wave....etc' I know her well enough to have once tried to get her to emphasise the 'deep' – well, someone has chosen to use an original expression, and I can feel the intention of the choice of word. But she didn't know what I was talking about. So we're stuck with 'Deepeace'.

GG

Play Electric Six at her until she starts saying "Deep-ah Peace-ah"

Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Ulster Protestantism has its origin in the lowlands, and hence is culturally Anglo-Saxon rather than Celtic. Or because Calvin wasn't a celt. Take your pick
Calvin was deffo a Celt. He was French. Didn't De Gaulle talk about "nos ancestries les gaulois"?

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9702 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Why does "Celtic spirituality " never mean the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster?

Ulster Protestantism has its origin in the lowlands, and hence is culturally Anglo-Saxon rather than Celtic. Or because Calvin wasn't a celt. Take your pick [Biased] .
Not at all sure. Gaelic speak was the common language right down to the Rhins of Galloway. On the Western seaboard, it becomes difficult to make the distinction between Highland and Lowland.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20710 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In my reference to the Free Prebyterians I was trying to make the same point as ken would with more elegance and force, namely that celtic spirituality includes things like Cornish Methodism, Welsh revivalism and the Wee Frees. I mentioned the Free Presbyterians because they seemed as far removed as possible from the usual twee celticism.

Do you mean the Scottish lowlands? I wouldn’t fancy my chances in the back streets of Glasgow saying Robert Burns was an Anglo Saxon.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3180 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

 - Posted      Profile for Og, King of Bashan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
As for anything by John Rutter .... I was put off by his setting for Communion back in the 1970's. Yuk.

Rutter sucks? Just the kind of bold hot original take that I come to the ship for.

[Biased]

--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3152 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

 - Posted      Profile for fletcher christian   Email fletcher christian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Posted by venebede:
quote:

In my reference to the Free Prebyterians I was trying to make the same point as ken would with more elegance and force, namely that celtic spirituality includes things like Cornish Methodism, Welsh revivalism and the Wee Frees. I mentioned the Free Presbyterians because they seemed as far removed as possible from the usual twee celticism.

The Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster was founded by Ian Paisley and he spent considerable effort trying to mould aspects of 'Celtic Christianity' to his cause, but the problem is that his aim was to remove the 'Celtic' aspect and 'hyper-Calvinise' everything mixed in with a heady dose of politics, separatism and sectarianism. Despite the distance between the Free P's and what we might recognise as Christianity today or in the 'Celtic' era, there are similarities that can be drawn; such as the sober lifestyle, the strict ethical lines and the rejection of materialism. It's much harder to draw parallels theologically.

I do quite like Bradley - mostly because you can plot his changing direction of thought throughout his books, and he isn't ashamed of changing his mind, which I find rather refreshing. His broad overviews are very good, if somewhat dense, but there are very considerable gaps in knowledge. He is particularly poor on Irish Christianity for instance. A much better place to start is James Mackey's collation of essays by different scholars under the title of 'An Introduction To Celtic Christianity'; hard to find, but worth the effort.

I haven't found the Gaelic blessing in Carmichael - perhaps it isn't there at all - but I suspect it may be in some form. I know there is an altered form in old Irish in Hyde's 'Religious Spngs of Connaught' but as yet I haven't been able to locate it. Anyway, the joke in Ireland is that the wind at your back should always be your own.

--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

Posts: 5216 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

Do you mean the Scottish lowlands? I wouldn’t fancy my chances in the back streets of Glasgow saying Robert Burns was an Anglo Saxon.

I wouldn't fancy my chances saying anything very much on the back streets of Glasgow, but Burns wrote predominantly in Scots, which is a descendant of Anglo-Saxon rather than Gaelic.
Posts: 2858 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The tides and flows of people, language and power in South West Scotland have resulted in a complex and different history from anywhere else in the British Isles. Anywhere which can both have been part of Gaeldom and Northumbria deserves respect.


Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20710 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555

 - Posted      Profile for wild haggis         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Interesting this thread, reading some of the rubbish that there is, especially about Celtic Christianity. Wouldn't it be nice to have some real Celts contributing?

I think I qualify: being Scottish with some Irish blood and now living in Wales!!!!

Firstly, don't believe everything you read on Google! It can be useful but take much with a pinch of salt, in your porridge.

There are 2 different prayers being talked about here. "The Deep Water" one which I had never really heard until I attended an Iona service in the 1990s and then sang the Rutter version in a choir in 2000s. But that's not to say it might be older.

That is different blessing from "The Road rise to met you" prayer.

I remember being given an Irish linen cushion cover to embroider, from my Irish uncle in the late 1950s with that Irish Blessing on it:- the road rise to meet you one. He told me that it was a very old Irish prayer, that some thought it came from the monks of Glendalough but he didn't think so. But it was exceedingly old.

Certainly not from 1970s (they hadn't been invented then) or an American (not Celtic by any stretch of the imagination!). My uncle came from a village just outside Derry. My other ancestors came from around Ballymena. The other side of my family is firmly Scottish.

I once attended Ian Paisely's church, out of curiousity, in 1970s, and there was nothing whatsoever Celtic in it. Very, very Calvinist in the extreme - and political too. But that was a long time ago.

As to Robert Burns being Anglo Saxon....awa an bile yir heed and then eat yir big bunnet ye sassenach!

Language is constantly changing and adapting. Look at English now and the amount of Americanisms and Aussie terms we now have. You would never understand proper Anglo-Saxon (try reading Beowolf in the original). Language is not static. I'm trying to learn Welsh at the moment - whew! I'll get there.

In Scotland we have: Gaelic, the language of the Highlands and Islands (Sottish Gaelic is related to Irish. Welsh, a Cetic language, is related to Cornish and Breton. I had a lecturer at the Uni of Lisbon who was trying to record Portuguese Celtic in Tras os Montes before it disappeared for good. Celts get everywhere!) Doric is an amalgum language (most English or Americans would be flumoxed) of the NE of Scotland and Lalands/Scots is the language of the lowlands and then of course we have Parliamo Glasga (an example which can be red above).

Can I suggest that you read some of Burns poems in Scots such as "To the Haggis" and see how much you understand? Strictly speaking not a Celtic language but not Anglo Saxon either. "The Cotters Saturday Night" is part in Scots and part in English. How many of you have actually read Bur's poms. You sing "Auld Lang syne" but the original words you would probably not understand.

Please don't make nasty comments about Glasgow. It is now one of the most vibrant cities in Europe with high culture in opera, dance, theatre and music to better anywhere. And it's cheaper than London! Visit it before you make rude comments. Sure there are deprived areas but there are deprived areas everywhere today.

By the way there is a resurgence of "Scots" (old lalands) being revived today in Scotland. Children get it in Scottish schools and you can buy books written in it from "The Gruffalo" to Harry Potter (I think I'm right, can be corrected if I'm wrong on Harry).

There is a lot of rubbish out there that calls itself Celtic Christianity and most certainly has nothing to do with the Celtic lands.

Celtic Christianity is not cosy with nice wee poems. It's a robust form of Christianity seated deep within day to day life of working in our world communicating with God through marked prayer times and then spending times away in contemplation before returning to the world that needs God in ways it can understand.

Try out Iona Community or Northumbria Fellowship to see what the modern day inheritors of Celtic Christianity are really about.

And may the road rise to meet you (means it is easier to make long journeys if the road comes to you). Why not come and visit our Celtic lands and meet real Celtic Christians there?

--------------------
wild haggis

Posts: 121 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I can never quite work out the "May the Road rise to met you" prayer - I much prefer walking along roads that gently slope downhill.
Posts: 9464 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ahem. Wild Haggis has just neatly explained that phrase for you.

[Razz]

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9416 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I really ought to have read her post properly! [Hot and Hormonal]
Posts: 9464 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Not at all sure. Gaelic speak was the common language right down to the Rhins of Galloway. On the Western seaboard, it becomes difficult to make the distinction between Highland and Lowland.

Jengie, are you sure of that? I've a recollection of having been told somewhere that before the South West of Scotland spoke Scots, it spoke a P Celtic language, i.e. Welsh related rather than Gaelic related.


More generally, I'd agree with anyone who says that the all fey, pentatonic and girl singers with flowing hair and long dresses style truly represents a Celtic truth that we have all lost, is talking twaddle, unless they have room in their vision for the austerities of pre-Vatican II Irish Catholicism, the hwyl of the Welsh Revivals and the Gaelic speaking denominations of Lewis.

Besides, has anyone who goes on about Celtic Christianity remembered that the first Celtic Christians we can know anything about are the people to whom St Paul wrote his Epistle to the Galatians?

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7385 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Firstly I had a local friend from the Rhins who talked about the last Gaelic speaker who I think died around when her Grandmother's generation were children (WW I). This is local as in family has lived in the area for 400 years. Secondly, when checking yesterday I came across the map of Gaelic speakers in 1400 on this page.

Jengie

[ 30. July 2017, 14:58: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20710 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools