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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW 3201: Hillsong, Bermondsey
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Galloping Granny
Some research suggests that American clergy who are more liberal than their congregations are more likely to experience low levels of job satisfaction.
This is worrying. There must be a limit to the effectiveness of a church where the congregation and clergy aren't on the same page.
Please can we have one of them?
GG
If you're able to get someone a work visa, perhaps you could look abroad for your new minister? The USA probably produces quite a lot of liberal candidates as it's such a religiously diverse country.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
@GeeD - our now-retired Father Fuckwit was always wittering on about his Lovely Wife. He did on one occasion remark to me that he had 'no problem with wimmin, as long as they kept their pinafores on, and didn't leave the kitchen'. This from an Anglo-Catholic priest, but with a rather fundamentalist evo background from years ago.
@SvitlanaV2 - the Vicar of the Church Of My Yoof once did a six-months' stint as Rector of a TEC parish (I forget in which state/diocese). Our two curates (yes, it was a long time ago) managed our parish in the meantime, so we didn't have the benefit of the ministry of an ECUSA (as it was then) priest. I wonder if these reciprocal arrangements still exist?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
@GeeD - our now-retired Father Fuckwit was always wittering on about his Lovely Wife.
That always makes me want to ask about the Other (Less Lovely) Wife which he must be hiding somewhere.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
His first wife died some years ago, but he was always wittering on about her as well. However, he always referred to her as his Dear Wife, so that we knew of whom he was speaking.
Frankly, his gushing uxoriousness became somewhat annoying to his tiny congregation of divorced, celibate, Living-In-Sin, gay/bisexual etc. peeps...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Lovely wives spend their time looking after the house, filled with 3 delightful children. They have no independent relationship with their husband's church, although they may teach at Sunday School, help with any flower guild (usually these were disbanded some years ago) and of course simper around generally. No movement since 1957, in other words.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Galloping Granny
Some research suggests that American clergy who are more liberal than their congregations are more likely to experience low levels of job satisfaction.
This is worrying. There must be a limit to the effectiveness of a church where the congregation and clergy aren't on the same page.
Please can we have one of them?
GG
If you're able to get someone a work visa, perhaps you could look abroad for your new minister? The USA probably produces quite a lot of liberal candidates as it's such a religiously diverse country.
It's not uncommon for congregations to calla minister from overseas, either for a permanent posting or for a year's swap. We had a great American about 40 years ago; he'd been a nuclear physicist before entering the ministry. A couple from our congregation returned a few weeks ago from visiting his widow, and today heard that she had had a stroke and died, aged almost 90.
Which is irrelevant, of course; I don't know whether our committee have thought of looking abroad.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Great news in church today: we have a prospect who is preaching for a call in two weeks' time – when I shall be in hospital.
His present parish is not far away. I drove past the church yesterday and remarked to the cousin I was with that I hadn't heard anything about that church for many years but they used to be known as the most theologically conservative in the region. However we've been assured that he knows all about us and while he might not be as Progressive as our Lay Supply he shouldn't be too far off.
Those who won't be present are hoping for either a recording or at least a transcript of sermon.
Any problems and we'll just have to teach him. At my age you can get away with a lot, but it was many years ago that I gently scolded a visiting preacher for saying 'In this Psalm David says...' when there are only a handful of psalms that could possibly have been written by David.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Those who won't be present are hoping for either a recording or at least a transcript of sermon.
Any problems and we'll just have to teach him.
That's interesting. I've never heard of liberal congregations requiring copies of the sermons before. Is it so you can analyse how progressive the preacher is, and whether you need to 'teach' him? I don't know if I'd want to preach under those circumstances! But maybe your chap is very young and keen to develop his progressive credentials.
Otherwise, if you expect to know just as much as - or even more than - the preacher then I'm not sure what point there is in hearing or reading his/her words.
The best thing would surely be for the visiting preacher to attend some of your services in advance. Then he'll know what kind of thing the congregation expects.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Lovely wives spend their time looking after the house, filled with 3 delightful children. They have no independent relationship with their husband's church, although they may teach at Sunday School, help with any flower guild (usually these were disbanded some years ago) and of course simper around generally. No movement since 1957, in other words.
I'd better show that to Mrs Mark .... on second thoughts I want to live longer than today so perhaps not.
I can identify the type though. In a previous church I was asked to preach on the subject of wives not working: I refused of course as Mrs M was the 1st Minister's wife in that church to work.
I gave the church a straightforward choice - 3 children at university, fees to pay. If Mrs M didn't work then would they like to increase my stipend accordingly?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Your family must have been the wrong demographic fit for that church. Previous ministerial families there were probably less upwardly-mobile.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Those who won't be present are hoping for either a recording or at least a transcript of sermon.
Any problems and we'll just have to teach him.
That's interesting. I've never heard of liberal congregations requiring copies of the sermons before. Is it so you can analyse how progressive the preacher is, and whether you need to 'teach' him? I don't know if I'd want to preach under those circumstances! But maybe your chap is very young and keen to develop his progressive credentials.
Otherwise, if you expect to know just as much as - or even more than - the preacher then I'm not sure what point there is in hearing or reading his/her words.
The best thing would surely be for the visiting preacher to attend some of your services in advance. Then he'll know what kind of thing the congregation expects.
If I were involved in a selection process (Saint Vartan's, where I once was a member, had a rector twice imposed by bishops without a selection process, so I escaped that), I would like to see a few written sermons to understand: 1) if the candidate can think things through, 2) if they have a narrow or broad base of reading, 3) exactly which hobbyhorse they were riding, and 4) perhaps an inkling of their theology.
Having dealt with a few clergy who were really not interested in what the congregation expected, Svitlana's suggestion that they attend is not a bad start, but it's only a start.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Your family must have been the wrong demographic fit for that church. Previous ministerial families there were probably less upwardly-mobile.
Or else, perhaps, they were childless.
Or they left before their children got to Uni. age.
Or (like me) were to old to have Uni.-age children.
Or were there years ago, when far fewer young people went on to higher education.
Or had "private means" or wealthy (and generous) parents ...
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If I were involved in a selection process
... I would like to see a few written sermons to understand: 1) if the candidate can think things through, 2) if they have a narrow or broad base of reading, 3) exactly which hobbyhorse they were riding, and 4) perhaps an inkling of their theology.
I agree. And, of course, many churches now have links to sermons on their websites, which you can read and/or listen to.
When "preaching with a view" I cunningly and deliberately dropped in a few phrases and comments to see if people would pick them up and, if so, what their response would be. Nothing too controversial, but wanted people to be able to have a feel for "what they would be getting" if they decided to call me.
Of course, ministry isn't just about sermons!
[ 14. August 2017, 15:34: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I would like to see a few written sermons to understand: 1) if the candidate can think things through
In this diocese, candidates have to give a presentation at interview to demonstrate this.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
That reminds me of the time when I was training as a Lay Reader. In those far-off days, one had to go and preach a sermon to the Warden of Readers, in his study.
I duly did so, the elderly Canon Warden sitting back (eyes closed) in his big, old, leather armchair. I reached the end of my oration, and the Warden sat quietly for a few moments before saying 'First, the good point...'
You will, of course, note the use of the singular.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Those who won't be present are hoping for either a recording or at least a transcript of sermon.
Any problems and we'll just have to teach him.
That's interesting. I've never heard of liberal congregations requiring copies of the sermons before. Is it so you can analyse how progressive the preacher is, and whether you need to 'teach' him? I don't know if I'd want to preach under those circumstances! But maybe your chap is very young and keen to develop his progressive credentials.
Otherwise, if you expect to know just as much as - or even more than - the preacher then I'm not sure what point there is in hearing or reading his/her words.
The best thing would surely be for the visiting preacher to attend some of your services in advance. Then he'll know what kind of thing the congregation expects.
It's those who will be absent who hope to know what he reveals when 'preaching for a call', the whole point of which is to give the congregation a chance to approve of the committee's choice. He's not a young thing, and has had extensive discussions with the selection committee, and obviously feels he has more in common with us than previous candidates did.
The 'just have to teach him' comment was made with tongue in cheek, which one cannot to easily on a computer screen.
Actually, a number of our Lay Supply's sermons are on our website so he may well have read them; and maybe there are sermons of our candidate on his present church's website; I must have a look.
GG
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I suspect that Svitlana62 may not have picked up the idiom in "teach".
Many churches have online videos of sermons, many more have the texts online the day after the sermon's been delivered. I don't know why a progressive, liberal parish may be more or less interested in including this sort of detail in the search for a new minister than a conservative one. I'd have thought that both would want to find out what a prospective candidate's approach is like, as well as the preaching style.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
His current parish has a Facebook page which has been inactive for some time. No help there.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Don't misunderstand me. As in any congregation, there is a wide range of personal belief, but we don't let that bother us. The basic teaching of Jesus and the love of God is what unites us.
We just need to know that he isn't, say, rigidly evangelical, and the committee will have sorted that one out.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Those who won't be present are hoping for either a recording or at least a transcript of sermon.
Within my tradition that would be for academic interest only, because only those present when the candidate preaches with a view¹ would be able to vote (the vote would normally happen at the end of a Church Meeting immediately following the service). By the time those who are absent get to hear/read the sermon the process would have been concluded.
¹ Which can sometimes lead to people still on the membership role turning up for the first time in years just as the service starts, and leaving immediately after the votes have been cast and counted to not be seen again for several more years. In one case at a former church they did so just to vote "no".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
And in my corner of my tradition, only the search committee would actually hear the candidate preach; the congregation would not. The congregation calls a pastor relying solely on the committee's recommendation.
Svitlana, it has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. It has to do with the importance of preaching in some traditions. If I recall correctly, Galloping Granny, like me, comes from a Presbyterian tradition, where preaching is central. When I served on a search committee, a survey showed that the first thing the congregation was looking for was a good preacher. (Good pastoral care came in second.) But really, we didn't need a survey to tell us that; it was pretty much a given.
I can't tell you how many sermons we read, listened to or watched on video. Finalists we listened to in person. The point was to make sure the candidate was a really good preacher with a style and approach (yes, including theological perspectives) that would resonate with and challenge our congregation. We were looking at many other things too, of course.
We hit the jackpot, btw. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which can sometimes lead to people still on the membership role turning up for the first time in years.
Tangent:// That is why Communion cards used to be issued - if one hadn't been present at Communion without good reason for (say) six months, one retained one's membership but lost the right to vote. //:Ends.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Your family must have been the wrong demographic fit for that church. Previous ministerial families there were probably less upwardly-mobile.
Or else, perhaps, they were childless.
Or they left before their children got to Uni. age.
Or (like me) were to old to have Uni.-age children.
Or were there years ago, when far fewer young people went on to higher education.
Or had "private means" or wealthy (and generous) parents ...
Of course, you're quite right.
However, what unites all of these points with mine is that they're utterly practical. The theology is neither here nor there. So perhaps the moral of the story is not to become a minister at such a church unless your wife has a 'real life' reason for not getting a paid job! The demographics (age, class, qualifications, etc.) remain relevant.
But seriously, it must be difficult for evangelical ministers to find a post that's exactly the right fit for them and their families. I think MOTR clergy generally expect to be more liberal than their congregations, and they're often employed by and paid from a central denominational authority, so what a congregation believes about this, that or the other doesn't matter to them so much. If evangelical clergy are expected to be more particular about the theology while also needing to pay their bills out of their congregation's offerings I'm sure that creates more room for conflict.
I assume that the CofE's evangelical clergy must have the best of both worlds; they can hope to be placed with congenial evangelical congregations, but if that doesn't work out at least they'll still get paid....
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Svitlana, it has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. It has to do with the importance of preaching in some traditions. If I recall correctly, Galloping Granny, like me, comes from a Presbyterian tradition, where preaching is central. When I served on a search committee, a survey showed that the first thing the congregation was looking for was a good preacher. (Good pastoral care came in second.) But really, we didn't need a survey to tell us that; it was pretty much a given.
I can't tell you how many sermons we read, listened to or watched on video.
You're talking about listening to sermons as part of the hiring and/or training process. I didn't realise that Galloping Granny was originally referring to that kind of scenario. I thought it was just a case of a visiting preacher stepping in to fill a gap. I didn't see why this new person's sermon would need to be recorded and analysed, but now it makes more sense.
[ 15. August 2017, 13:54: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Svitlana, I'm sorry if I initially gave a misleading impression.
I think that theology in this case is at least as critical as preaching, in that there would be a range of theology among the members but no dedicated evangelicals, and it seems that the eager candidates for ministry training at the moment seem to be of that kind. So I suppose that if a sermon doesn't totally fit with one's personal belief pattern one would think 'That was interesting' and get on with what needed doing, and maybe discuss it with the preacher if he had a good relationship with his flock.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Which can sometimes lead to people still on the membership role turning up for the first time in years.
Tangent:// That is why Communion cards used to be issued - if one hadn't been present at Communion without good reason for (say) six months, one retained one's membership but lost the right to vote. //:Ends.
Not really, many churches would not have done it that way.
Originally communion tokens (the predecessor of cards) were used to show who could be trusted as Presbyterian and not to report the illegal communion service to the authorities.
Later they became a method of assessing who was fit to come to communion. Only those judged by the minister or the elder to be in good moral and theological position would receive a card and thus be able to come to communion.
Finally, they came a way of assessing pastoral care. That is a way of making sure elders visited their flock regularly between communions.
In my home congregation receiving a communion card was a convenience for members(you did not need to sign in on a sheet) but nothing more. So if you were suspended from voting it would be because you were not recorded at communion, not because you did not present the card. However, I never heard of anyone having the right to vote withdrawn while remaining a member. I have heard of removal from the role for not attending communion. The grounds being that you had effectively excommunicated yourself but this is full removal from membership.
Jengie
[ 16. August 2017, 09:44: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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irreverend tod
Shipmate
# 18773
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Posted
quote:
I gave the church a straightforward choice - 3 children at university, fees to pay. If Mrs M didn't work then would they like to increase my stipend accordingly?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Diocesan Arsonist and Lead thief to the Church of England.
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irreverend tod
Shipmate
# 18773
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Posted
In our parish we would not only listen to the preaching, but also have a good sniff round the applicants parish to any unfiltered information.
This might sound underhand, but there have been too many parishes who have agreed to appoint a vicar (with tenure) based on a very rose tinted (or downright inaccurate) version of them from the diocese or archdeaconary. We are in a benefice of many rural parishes and have been lied to by candidates and officialdom in the past. We stop short of negatively vetting, but it's not far off, as getting shot of a C of E priest is hard work and never goes well for anyone.
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Diocesan Arsonist and Lead thief to the Church of England.
Posts: 55 | From: England | Registered: May 2017
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irreverend tod:
In our parish we would not only listen to the preaching, but also have a good sniff round the applicants parish to any unfiltered information.
Yes. Some parishes have learnt this the hard way (very hard indeed, in some cases).
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
It works the other way too: prospective clergy do well (if they can) to find out as much as possible about the church they might serve.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Quite interesting, but only quite. The writer clearly didn't get what the place she was visiting was about. She seems mainly interested in what celebs do, and what the members of the congregation are wearing, whether their jeans are stylish or not.
She doesn't even seem to appreciate that 'join' in a church context doesn't mean the same as 'visit'!
A preacher who has publicly endorsed Trump would be a full-blown no for me. It would call into question whether I would trust anything he or she said about anything else or could be kosher. But the journalist doesn't seem even to know that Hillsong is Australian, not based wherever this Revd Franklin comes from.
And yet again, this journalistic infatuation with what boxes a person ticks on a single dead horse issue.
So two cheers at the most.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Scots lass
Shipmate
# 2699
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Posted
I'm inclined to agree with you, Enoch. I was interested in how Hillsong came across to someone who was obviously not that familiar with church, but it's not like she was going with an open mind. It was more of an "investigate these weirdos" feel, so two cheers at most seems about right!
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