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Source: (consider it) Thread: Non-religious music at St Sepulchre's
Sipech
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My attention has been brought to this story about a church in central London which is to stop taking bookings from non-religious musicians to use the space for rehearsals and concerts. Church statement here.

St Sepulchre-without-Newgate seems to have a threefold identity: a church community, a concert venue and is the spiritual home of a branch of the military. Reading between the lines, its use as a classical music venue seems to be a way of revenue generation for when the church is otherwise vacant, but that as the congregation puts on more of its own events, this spare capacity is now being utilised.

It raises an interesting question over the use of church buildings and their uses. On the one hand, it's not like the musicians are being kicked out for no good reason. But on the other, it's a church with a rich tradition of musicianship and part of that looks set to be lost.

Incidentally, it had a visitation fairly recently by one of Miss Amanda's minions.

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Pomona
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Seems a shame - lots of churches in central London/Oxford etc put on secular classical concerts, and some even stretch to non-classical music (eg Union Chapel Islington). I think overall it's a good thing and doesn't make it less of a church, but is an easy form of outreach to people who otherwise wouldn't step foot into a church.

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Baptist Trainfan
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We had this discussion at a church I led, and concluded that, when people come into a church building for a "secular" concert, they are most unlikely to see it as more than a "venue" or "performance space". Our conclusion was that it didn't really "do" anything in terms of outreach - although we were of course pleased to be a resource for the community and hosted "charity" concerts (either for free or for nothing) at times.

The question here must be, "Do we take on face value the claim that the church building now hosts so many in-house activities that it sadly can no longer be offered for hire, or (as some think) do we think there is a 'hidden agenda' to both stop the building being used for 'secular'activities and take the church down a non-traditional musical pathway?" Unfortunately some folk will suspect the latter even if the former is the reality.

[ 16. August 2017, 14:13: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Bishops Finger
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The multifarious planned or existing in-house church/congregational activities are, no doubt, the result of this being a Holy Trinity, Brompton, plant. The MW Report refers to a congregation of about 30, so it's early days yet (given the size of HTB plants elsewhere).

This may well explain their desire to keep some space/time for their own activities.

IJ

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Baptist Trainfan
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I suspect the HTB link is what's worrying the traditionalists.

Some time ago I was part of a URC group discussing how best use might be made of our church buildings. We concluded that, while it was possible to encourage many cultural and/or community groups to use the premises (with the result that the bills easily got paid), it was also possible to end up with a situation in which there was no free space for the church to do its own "stuff".

We in fact went further and wondered if, in the eyes of the community, that the identity of the building as primarily a Christian space could become diluted or compromised. (I can think of at least three churches where this has happened).

[ 16. August 2017, 15:35: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Curiosity killed ...

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I'd put the Union Chapel into the category of really a concert venue, not so much a church any more. I have been to concerts at a number of London churches and that one is definitely nearer to the Cadogan Hall* than, say, St John's Bethnal Green.

* over one of the doors at the Cadogan Hall, there's an inscription identifying it as the New Christian Science church that it was when built.

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Pomona
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That's fair enough re Union Chapel.

I do wonder if it couldn't be a real help for churches outside of big cities to offer this kind of cultural space, however - like with churches offering Post Office services, churches offering concert/cinema/gallery space etc would be of huge benefit to areas which struggle to have good access to those things. Not just rural areas - small towns and suburban housing estates are often really lacking in this area. I think outreach happens on top of those things being provided though - providing the space isn't enough.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Bishops Finger
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I would agree with Pomona up to a point, but do bear in mind that older churches - both rural and urban - don't always have adequate WC and/or parking/catering facilities for themselves, let alone for outside bodies whose events might well bring in a lot more people than attend worship on Sundays!

These problems can, of course, often be solved with a bit of ingenuity, but where does the £££ to do so come from?

IJ

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L'organist
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St Sepulchre's has been known as The Musicians' Church for more than a century. It has a special chapel with many memorials to musicians and stained glass of depictions of St Cecilia and Dame Nellie Melba and Henry Wood's ashes lie under the floor. It is also the resting place of Roger Ascham, tutor to Elizabeth I and latin secretary to Mary I.

When the St Cecilia Festival Service was revived after WWII it was first held at St Sepulchre's before the size of the event meant a switch to an even larger building. And the church has long been the venue of choice for memorial services for distinguished musicians.

The concerts held in the church have been going on since the time of Sir Henry Wood (died 1946) and have been held in the church NOT so it can raise revenue but because of its size and fine acoustic.

When the HTB lot asked to move in on St Sepulchre's they gave an undertaking that they would leave the church's musicial heritage alone: in other words, let the concerts and memorial services continue. However, almost from the beginning they have shamefully reneged on the promises they made and now are trying to force out the Musicians Benevolent Fund (and others); in addition the liturgical musical tradition of the church has been chucked out.

Yet another example of the good faith and probity of HTB and all its ilk.

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Bishops Finger
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I appreciate that St. Sepulchre's is a special case, given its history of musical connections, but has anything similar happened at any other HTB plants?

Perhaps the HTB style of plant is rather akin to another plant, to wit, Japanese Knotweed....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/prevent-japanese-knotweed-from-spreading

IJ

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I would agree with Pomona up to a point, but do bear in mind that older churches - both rural and urban - don't always have adequate WC and/or parking/catering facilities for themselves, let alone for outside bodies whose events might well bring in a lot more people than attend worship on Sundays!

These problems can, of course, often be solved with a bit of ingenuity, but where does the £££ to do so come from?

IJ

I live in a rural area and one of the churches in our benefices has such problems with WC etc provision, so I'm well aware of those issues. Somewhat peversely, it can be much easier to access funding for secular uses for churches from local councils/charitable funding bodies etc - people are much more willing to fund eg making a church suitable for local cinema access than they are simply to fund church repairs for the use of the congregation, for many reasons.

Of course, for suburban churches the issues are totally different and much less to do with infrastructure.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
St Sepulchre's has been known as The Musicians' Church for more than a century. It has a special chapel with many memorials to musicians and stained glass of depictions of St Cecilia and Dame Nellie Melba and Henry Wood's ashes lie under the floor. It is also the resting place of Roger Ascham, tutor to Elizabeth I and latin secretary to Mary I.

When the St Cecilia Festival Service was revived after WWII it was first held at St Sepulchre's before the size of the event meant a switch to an even larger building. And the church has long been the venue of choice for memorial services for distinguished musicians.

The concerts held in the church have been going on since the time of Sir Henry Wood (died 1946) and have been held in the church NOT so it can raise revenue but because of its size and fine acoustic.

When the HTB lot asked to move in on St Sepulchre's they gave an undertaking that they would leave the church's musicial heritage alone: in other words, let the concerts and memorial services continue. However, almost from the beginning they have shamefully reneged on the promises they made and now are trying to force out the Musicians Benevolent Fund (and others); in addition the liturgical musical tradition of the church has been chucked out.

Yet another example of the good faith and probity of HTB and all its ilk.

Sadly nothing about this wrt HTB surprises me. Shameful behaviour.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Bishops Finger
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Pomona, you are, of course, quite right about the possibilities of funding from 'outside' bodies.

Always worth exploring, coz them as doesn't ask, doesn't get!

IJ

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Baptist Trainfan
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It's easy to demonise HTB in cases like this, especially if one doesn't like their particular brand of evangelicalism.

I do know of a church which, for various reasons, was dying on its feet. With the agreement of the Diocese, HTB people were parachuted in. At first I didn't much like the way they went about things but I must say that, by all accounts, they are now functioning as an excellent parish church with strong roots in the local community.

One thing which did cause a bit of angst in the early days was the fact that a small group of Christians from another denomination held a weekly service in the building on Sunday afternoons. This followed the closure of their own chapel and may have been part of a Local Ecumenical arrangement.

The new management made it clear that they didn't want this to continue as it "blocked" the use of the building at a time they wanted to free up. I can see that; but the nagging doubt remained that this small and elderly group of folk (which, I have to say, was in no way a "viable" congregation) simply didn't present the right "image" that the newcomers wished to foster.

[ 17. August 2017, 07:50: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Bishops Finger
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Which is why I observed earlier that it would be instructive to hear whether similar issues have occurred at other HTB plants, without wishing to denigrate or demonise HTB in any way.

IJ

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BroJames
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A strong feeling of not having heard the full story yet.

I know we have struggled with turnaround from a big music event on a Saturday night to having the church ready for worship on a Sunday morning. I dare say central London rentals may be different, but we can't charge enough for the venue to pay for people to clear up afterwards, and there are limits to how much one can ask of volunteers. And it has not worked accepting hirers' promises to put everything to rights themselves.

Also our plant constraints mean that the office cannot be fully used if the main body of the church is in use for a service or a performance. We have no other plant available for an office and no resources to do more with it at the moment (acoustic isolation and separate access), even assuming we can overcome issues around being a Grade 1 Listed building.

I don't know how long it will last but here's Google's cache of St. Sepulchre's original hire page

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L'organist
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posted by Bishop's Finger
quote:
I appreciate that St. Sepulchre's is a special case, given its history of musical connections, but has anything similar happened at any other HTB plants?
You could try looking at St Thomas, Heigham (Norwich) where an HTB plant has fundamentally changed the liturgical pattern, alienated a large percentage of the congregation, disbanded the choir, seen off the Director of Music (President of the Norwich Organists' Association) and where the future of the historic organ in the church must now be viewed with grave concern.

The 'plant' people would argue that they have increased congregation size - but they would since they arrived with 60 people. They'd also argue that people now attend who weren't in church before - but that ignores those who were there are who have now left. And while they have attracted some younger people the majority of these are students at the nearby university so unlikely to stay with the parish long-term.

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Gamaliel
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I've been to a performance of Orthodox chorale music in St Sepulchre's. Lovely.

Seems a shame to hear what's happening now. However, I'd like to hear both sides. It's not as if there aren't lively evangelical churches in that part of London already, though.

That said, I've heard good accounts from liberals and somewhat High Church people about what happens when an HTB plant takes root, and they've been pleasantly surprised as to how it has complemented rather than crushed what's already been there.

I suspect there are good and bad instances.

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ThunderBunk

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Shameful act of ecclesiatical masturbation.

Definition of church planting.

[ 19. August 2017, 15:13: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]

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Bishops Finger
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We've heard about a couple of 'bad' instances of HTB plants, but, as Gamaliel points out, there are 'good' instances. Let's hear about one or two of them, please.

I'm not a great fan of HTB's style, which ISTM can sometimes be rather shallow, but, if they can reinvigorate a failing local parish church in the backstreets somewhere, bully for them. As long as that church carries on being the local church in its backstreets, IYSWIM.

I speak as one who might actually quite like to see a dozen or so movers-and-shakers coming to ginger up the rather weary faithful few at Our Place!

IJ

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ThunderBunk

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Well, be careful what you wish for, Bishop's Finger.

They'd go back to where they came from soon enough. Rather like bees, they have to have travelled a considerable distance in order to establish a genuinely new colony. Otherwise, the new people will just be coming in from the local such congregation, and will return when the population of new people is insufficient to sustain colonial excitement, and/or the colonists remember that they used to have a life when they went to church half as often.

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Baptist Trainfan
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That may happen, it may not. In the church I mentioned above, the new arrivals may or may not have stayed; I have no idea. But they did provide enough "oomph" for the church, 15+ years on, to now be a thriving parish church.
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Bishops Finger
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ThunderBunk, as I posted, I had exactly that same thought, and you are, of course, right to counsel wariness.

I'm just getting weary of taking one step forward, and two steps back, and would welcome some help... [Help]

BT, it is indeed 'oomph' that we need.

IJ

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Baptist Trainfan
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Gosh, I can so identify with your comments.

When the Minister of a small church in London, I grew so tired of (a) new "exciting" churches starting up in our backyard rather than coming to help the less exciting churches that were already there and (b) peoppe who came along and said, "Oh, we were looking for a bigger church" and never came back. So much for sacrificially building the Kingdom of God.

Of course, I don't deny that "old" churches can be cliqueish and very closed to new ideas and people.

[ 19. August 2017, 17:39: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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ThunderBunk

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Gosh, I can so identify with your comments.

When the Minister of a small church in London, I grew so tired of (a) new "exciting" churches starting up in our backyard rather than coming to help the less exciting churches that were already there and (b) peoppe who came along and said, "Oh, we were looking for a bigger church" and never came back. So much for sacrificially building the Kingdom of God.

Of course, I don't deny that "old" churches can be cliqueish and very closed to new ideas and people.

This is the dilemma I think we're in. Churches are seen as being branches of a national chain, especially in the C of E, rather than developments (or, if you insist, expressions) of the local community. If they are not the latter, they will always rely on others to keep them going, and will not have the connections to know what their local community needs.

To my mind, "the body of Christ" is far more exact, and more organic, a description of the church than most people want to realise or accept. If you're going to try and build it up, it is rarely advisable to cut it off at the ankles and wait for new shoots to grow: entirely the wrong kind of organism.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

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Baptist Trainfan
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I know nothing about the existing congregation at St. Sepulchre's, i.e. whether it was large or small, "thriving" or "barely viable", reaching out or inward-looking, etc. etc.

But, where a congregation is on its last legs, an infusion of outsiders can sometimes give it the "kick start" it needs to become re-established, hopefully (as you so rightly say) developing strong roots in the local community.

On the other hand, the newcomers can give the impression that locals are no longer wanted, especially if they come from a different (i.e. posher and more articulate) social background.

[ 19. August 2017, 19:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
On the other hand, the newcomers can give the impression that locals are no longer wanted, especially if they come from a different (i.e. posher and more articulate) social background.

Or the opposite. Many congregations in Arizona are actually having services in Spanish and welcoming Hispanics!
[Eek!]

(Not my reaction -- I was thrilled when my church added a Spanish service, but it has upset some "posher" congregations.)

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L'organist
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The result (so far) of the HTB plant in Norwich has been to give some aid to surrounding parishes in the shape of people who feel 'pushed out' going to other places, however, on the whole these have been the older generation. The younger people who now feel unwelcome it would seem have largely decided that the CofE is not for them on the basis that it is (in their eyes) distinctly un-Christian for an outside governing body - bishop, diocese - to parachute in a new team without reference to the PCC or wider congregation and to change what had first attracted them.

ISTM that this last is the real problem with plants: it says to an existing congregation that they aren't "church". Furthermore, by ignoring an existing congregation, however small, and imposing on them patterns of worship they don't like or want, it tells them that their devotion is worthless and their views don't matter: how can that be called "mission".

One of the latest boasts by HTB in Heigham is that they have reinvigorated the local pub - but is it really the job of the CofE to be livening up a pub? And is that meant to make-up for the hurt and damage caused by ditching services, making it impossible for faithful people to receive communion, etc, etc, etc?

Another plant, the Harbour Church in Portsmouth, is even stranger. There is no mention anywhere of communion and an enquiry about when a eucharist or communion service could be found was greeted with "we're not that kind of church". The website is heavy on Alpha, which they advertise with a fetching photograph of Bear Grylls.

In London, St David's Westbourne Road is now part of "Hope Church Islington" and a church that had an Anglo-Catholic tradition now has one communion a month, tacked onto the end of its "worship" and conducted to the sound of a lot of the "worship" congregation consuming coffee and cake.

A London friend has noticed that the congregation at places like All Saints, Margaret Street can tell you reliably about where HTB plants have been started by noting where new members of their congregation come from.

Above all, am I being too cynical to wonder how many of the new congregation at plant churches will still be there when the plant team are no longer around to staff things like the free holiday play schemes, etc?

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Gamaliel
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To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

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Gamaliel
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To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Regarding Evangelical incomers, this study may prove to be of interest (if you don't won't to read it all, look at the sections towards the end entitled "Parish life in a working-class locality" and "An evangelical sea-change"). Unfortunately the last few lines seem to be unavailable.
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Bishops Finger
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Thanks, BT - most interesting. A salutary tale, indeed.

I think what I envision for Our Place is not so much an HTB-style 'evangelical takeover' (or 'makeover'?) as an infusion of new blood to reinvigorate our existing small, but committed, and rather weary, core congregation. For instance, two or three new young families (perhaps transferring themselves from a neighbouring evangelical church) could help us revive our children's work on Sundays and/or our monthly 'Crafty Church' (which means a lot of work for already hard-pressed folk). Young families are a major demographic in our parish. We could also do with some more servers and singers to enhance further our Sunday Eucharist (bells and smells, but not OTT...), as we are the only local church offering 'high church' or 'Anglo-Catholic' services. And, before someone says that that sort of thing is no longer wanted, I would point to the continuing growth of our Cell of Our Lady of Walsingham.

We are conscious of our well-worn church hall (it's the original mission church, somewhat altered over the years) being a community resource, and are presently refurbishing the kitchen to modern standards to help with this. The Hall is used daily by a pre-school Nursery, and is often booked on Saturday or Sunday afternoons for children's parties. I believe we have a Polish dance class starting on a weekday evening soon, as well...

Perhaps YSWIM. No need for a radical change of direction (if folk really, really want a charismatic-evo church, we simply refer them to Next Door Place!), but just some extra 'oomph'to help us do better what we are already doing as our local parish church.

A new priest-in-charge would help, too, so if you're looking for a challenge...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
ISTM that this last is the real problem with plants: it says to an existing congregation that they aren't "church". Furthermore, by ignoring an existing congregation, however small, and imposing on them patterns of worship they don't like or want, it tells them that their devotion is worthless and their views don't matter: how can that be called "mission".

Theologically I'm at the HTB end of the spectrum. Practically though, I find their approach to church planting/church very unwise for the reasons you mention. To my mind it's church by numbers.

Bishops too should not escape censure. They have been known to "invite" HTB in to an area with little or no consultation with existing clergy. At the same time I'm told that HTB pick the locations ruthlessly - not all invites fit their brief. I can't see them planting on the deprived estate near me for example - why the nearest coffee shop is miles away!

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

The report Love, Sweat and Tears: Church planting in East London by Tim Thorlby suggests this happens but there are also horror stories. We aee about to be in vacancy - if HTB want to come here then I hope our churchwardens will exercise their right of veto.

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Bishops Finger
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Thanks, leo, for the link to Tim Thorlby's report. Again, most interesting.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Regarding Evangelical incomers, this study may prove to be of interest (if you don't won't to read it all, look at the sections towards the end entitled "Parish life in a working-class locality" and "An evangelical sea-change"). Unfortunately the last few lines seem to be unavailable.

Last few lines is a paragraph and a half
quote:


What ever the motives of the leadership it is clear that local people had their own expectations of what their church should be. In this case study, the innate conservatism of the congregation coupled with a strong identity forged over a long period of time frustrated clergy attempts to bring innovation into the life of the church. In the same way, this strong sense of identity, solidaristic but inclusive and quintessentially Anglican held the congregation together during a difficult period and contributed to the subsequent return of local people to the congregation.

Carr et al. (1992) suggest that 'ownership' is not a question of ideology, but a matter of the heart, informed by history and tradition and, above all, a sense of belonging. Traditionally, the style of Anglican ministry is 'interpretative'; that is, it should 'seek to interpret peoples experiences of life in relationship to God' as realised within the parochial context (Carr et al. 1992, pp16-17). In a highly secularised environment where clergy vocations are falling and new ordinands are increasingly also evangelical, this model of parochial ministry is being challenged by very different ministerial models. While these understandings are perfectly appropriate within certain contexts, traditionally, parish ministry is necessarily predicated upon a degree of openness towards the expectations of the congregations and a recognition that it remains for many people in the surrounding population 'an institution towards which they look' (Carr et al. 1992 pp 50-51). This case study graphically illustrates the negative consequences for one traditional parish when this vision was lost.

Carr et all is Say One for Me. Given that in the conclusion he clearly cites a book with a very clear agenda you may wish to ask about the stance of the author.

Jengie

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Gamaliel
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It all reminds me of the episode in one of the early series of Rev when an HTB style congregation temporarily take over his parish.

Very, very accurate ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Albertus
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# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Thanks, BT - most interesting. A salutary tale, indeed.

I think what I envision for Our Place is not so much an HTB-style 'evangelical takeover' (or 'makeover'?) as an infusion of new blood to reinvigorate our existing small, but committed, and rather weary, core congregation. For instance, two or three new young families (perhaps transferring themselves from a neighbouring evangelical church) could help us revive our children's work on Sundays and/or our monthly 'Crafty Church' (which means a lot of work for already hard-pressed folk). Young families are a major demographic in our parish. We could also do with some more servers and singers to enhance further our Sunday Eucharist (bells and smells, but not OTT...), as we are the only local church offering 'high church' or 'Anglo-Catholic' services. And, before someone says that that sort of thing is no longer wanted, I would point to the continuing growth of our Cell of Our Lady of Walsingham.

We are conscious of our well-worn church hall (it's the original mission church, somewhat altered over the years) being a community resource, and are presently refurbishing the kitchen to modern standards to help with this. The Hall is used daily by a pre-school Nursery, and is often booked on Saturday or Sunday afternoons for children's parties. I believe we have a Polish dance class starting on a weekday evening soon, as well...

Perhaps YSWIM. No need for a radical change of direction (if folk really, really want a charismatic-evo church, we simply refer them to Next Door Place!), but just some extra 'oomph'to help us do better what we are already doing as our local parish church.

A new priest-in-charge would help, too, so if you're looking for a challenge...

IJ

Is there such a thing as Anglo-Catholic Church planting? If not, why not?
Good luck with the Pole Dancing sessions, by the way...
[Big Grin]

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Bishops Finger
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Thanks, Albertus - I should have spotted that!

[Killing me]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Albertus
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And you wondered why you were getting all those visitors- who left looking disappointed...

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

The report Love, Sweat and Tears: Church planting in East London by Tim Thorlby suggests this happens but there are also horror stories. We aee about to be in vacancy - if HTB want to come here then I hope our churchwardens will exercise their right of veto.
I rather think that they are already on their way to a church near you, albeit closer to the University, naturally.
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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And you wondered why you were getting all those visitors- who left looking disappointed...

...tho' not as disappointed as those who misinterpreted the ad about the traditional Sami dance sessions...

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Utrecht Catholic
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I have to conclude from what I read and hear that HTB is becoming more or less a Church in the Church of England.A very dangerous phenomenon.
I am waiting to hear a critical reaction from sound and traditional bishops.
Like many others I am not so happy with the methods of HTB.

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Robert Kennedy

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Roman Cataholic
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be fair, I've heard of an Anglo-Catholic priest who has pretty much been left alone by the HTB incomers and who has actually had more people come to his style of service since they got involved - they support and tolerate him and get on and do their happy-clappy stuff and munching cakes at other times.

I suspect this is rare, but it shows it can be done.

The report Love, Sweat and Tears: Church planting in East London by Tim Thorlby suggests this happens but there are also horror stories. We aee about to be in vacancy - if HTB want to come here then I hope our churchwardens will exercise their right of veto.
I rather think that they are already on their way to a church near you, albeit closer to the University, naturally.
I know for a fact that HTB has been approached by Bishop Mike Hill to look at planting a church in Bristol in the Clifton Area to compete with Woodlands Church.
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Baptist Trainfan
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But Christ Church is there already. [Confused]

[ 21. August 2017, 13:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Gamaliel
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Sadly, I don't think any tradition, apart, perhaps, from the Roman Catholics (at least here in the West) are exempt from church-planting on someone else's toes.

I've known Baptist church-plants open relatively close to existing Baptist congregations, for instance. The 'restorationist' new churches would regularly plant new churches in one another's patch, with the excuse that 'there was always room for one more ...'

Now it seems the Anglicans are doing the same.

The overlapping jurisdictions within the Orthodox 'diaspora' means that the same thing happens there too - although this is often for linguistic reasons but even so ...

In the Middle East, of course, there are a gazillion competing forms of Catholic - Melkites, Maronites, Greek Catholics, Armenian Catholics, etc etc mirroring the same chaos for the 'Latins' as the jurisdictional messiness in the West does for the Orthodox ... although they're having a few controversies on their home-turf too with Moscow opening a church on Cyprus, for instance ...

So we're all as bad as one another in that respect.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I have to conclude from what I read and hear that HTB is becoming more or less a Church in the Church of England.A very dangerous phenomenon.
I am waiting to hear a critical reaction from sound and traditional bishops.

There won't be because they want the money.

It's an interesting point, though ... at one point does something cease to be Anglican and become something else.

The same charge could be levelled at those at the uber-High end of the spectrum.

I've recently returned from the annual conference of the Fellowship of St Alban & St Sergius, with the realisation that what I'd taken to be 'high church' Anglicanism all this time hadn't been that 'high' at all.

The Anglo-Catholic Mass for the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary was so stratospheric it made the RC and Orthodox eucharists look like a Plymouth Brethren meeting ...

The Anglo-Catholics / Anglo-Papalists there were great, but thoroughly inconsistent, I thought, in the logic of their position. They want their cake and eat it.

But that's another issue ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've known Baptist church-plants open relatively close to existing Baptist congregations, for instance. The 'restorationist' new churches would regularly plant new churches in one another's patch, with the excuse that 'there was always room for one more ...'

All true (sadly) - but these churches don't have parishes and dioceses, the Anglicans do.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've known Baptist church-plants open relatively close to existing Baptist congregations, for instance. The 'restorationist' new churches would regularly plant new churches in one another's patch, with the excuse that 'there was always room for one more ...'

All true (sadly) - but these churches don't have parishes and dioceses, the Anglicans do.
Though even this has been bypassed in the case of a church I know of. Not directly an HTB plant as far as I know, but a similar ethos: the (then) Bishop simply offered them the use of a redundant church and then gave it its own parish of which the boundary is the churchyard wall.
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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Humph! This Church is not CofE! Don't ask me what Independent Anglican is. This is just one local example.

Getting around parish boundary questions happens far too easily around here for me to believe that is much of a requirement.

Jengie

[ 21. August 2017, 15:48: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

--------------------
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