homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools
Thread closed  Thread closed


Post new thread  
Thread closed  Thread closed
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » Non-religious music at St Sepulchre's (Page 7)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Non-religious music at St Sepulchre's
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
In addition, a parish is a charity, and the PCC members are the trustees, and so responsible for ensuring that the charity meets its charitable objectives. Is the provision of a venue for rehearsal or concerts (on a commercial basis) one of those objectives?

Based on what l'Organist says, I guess it is. Or at least being the Musician's church etc is an explicit objective of that particular church according to the diocese of London.
Helen-Eva, your post crossed mine while I was writing it.

Parish churches are charities but they don't usually have specific objects more precise than to be a parish church for the parish of X. Such an explicit objective would be almost unknown for a church whose origins go back to a medieval or pre-medieval past at a time when the City of London was densely packed with residents.

It would be very unusual, I suspect unknown, for there to be a church which included within its explicit charitable objects a mission to the musicians of the City of London, yet alone the provision of practice rooms and rehearsal facilities.

So unless the vicar and PCC have concluded either that providing such facilities is part of St Sepulchre's Christian mission and would further the greater glory of God or that the income from it is a useful subsidy to that mission, it's probably outside the lawful objects of St Sepulchre's.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7491 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
How does this follow? I don't know St Sepulchre at all, but the City of London has a rather small resident population (less than 10,000), and a very much larger community of commuting workers (more than 300,000).

Those 300,000 people aren't there on Sundays.

The idea that one should only serve the 10,000 residents and not the 300,000 people who are there for long hours on weekdays is rather misguided to say the least.

So I conclude that the absence of Sunday service from a church in a community where 97% of the people aren't there on Sundays really doesn't tell you anything about the effectiveness or otherwise of the church's mission.

I accept that, and admit that that my experience of city centre churches in medieval centres where people no longer live in is of this city (Bristol, see below) not London.

It is a dilemma what you do when the churches are no longer where the people are. Here, even allowing for the ones destroyed by bombing and not rebuilt, central Bristol includes two churches that don't have services but are maintained by a trust, one that's a concert hall (i.e. not a church at all), one that's an office, one that was a diocesan library and is now unused, and one that nobody knows what to do with.

The ones that are working churches here do still have Sunday services and congregations. Although they do things in the week, those are likely either not to be well attended or to involve the Sunday congregation in some way. True, Bristol may well have residential neighbourhoods closer in to the original core than the City of London. That still means, though, that people are coming into the centre on Sundays. Even so, there is a lot more of inhabited London that's fairly central than people tend to assume.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7491 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
The Friends of the City Churches have a useful website, with information about the various churches, and links to their websites (where applicable):

http://www.london-city-churches.org.uk/

BTW, some Hostly advice might be welcome, as it seems to me that this thread is getting close to interfering with a church's internal affairs, with people also dangerously close to accusing interested parties to be liars.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Incidentally, if you go to that website, click on 'City Events', and scroll down a little way, there's a link to a PDF list of Saturday and Sunday services in City churches. The Sunday list is quite impressive, with a wonderful variety of denominations and liturgies!

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
posted by Enoch
quote:
As an aside, if there haven't been regular Sunday services for 30 years, it's a bit difficult to conclude that St Sepulchre's mission to the musical community has been having much effect.


Regular weekday services took place which were attended by people from offices nearby. And there were other services, such as carol services, which had a good attendance.

In any case, it must be recognised that many members of the "musical community" are working in churches on a Sunday.

I'm puzzled by the silence of the Patron of the living in all of this: I'd have thought that St John's College, Oxford, might have some input on this situation? Or were they persuaded to relinquish their patronage to the bishop?

I'm not sure why anyone would think the coverage in The Church Times would be biased or slanted against +Pete and the parish: my reading of it is that it gives an accurate description of what has happened. Of course, the plant people and +Pete may not like the light it casts on them, but that is not the same as inaccuracy.

As for the idea that there will be "exciting developments" around Christmas: I can tell you now that none of the people I know who have been involved with Christmas concerts and services at St Sepulchre's in past years have been contacted about anything for this year, and none of them are holding their breath.

I feel a smidgeon of sympathy for the acting bishop, but only a smidgeon. To be blunt, David Ingall and the HTB plant people brought about the shoot out and they picked the ground and waited to see what happened: +Pete and the diocese blinked and decided to retire from the field. The statement on the diocesan website is a pretty threadbare figleaf and can't disguise the fact that HTB and Mr Ingall have run rings around the diocese and its acting bishop and are completely unrepentant about the bad faith they have shown.

[ 29. September 2017, 20:42: Message edited by: L'organist ]

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4829 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Given their other plans this is sheer sanctimonious hypocrisy. They are a cult answerable to no one and nothing but their own ego.

Just like so many others of different hues in the C of E. Parishes do have significant autonomy. In addition, a parish is a charity, and the PCC members are the trustees, and so responsible for ensuring that the charity meets its charitable objectives. Is the provision of a venue for rehearsal or concerts (on a commercial basis) one of those objectives?
The Trust Deeds (where they exist) will be so broad as to ensure that a wide range of things can be done but will not be required to be done. It's a matter of a number of options but little compulsion to take any particular one.

Sunday worship and Alpha Courses would, for example, fit perfectly. The church would then be said to be providing a Christian presence in the community. They don't have to provide a venue for concerts but given the history they would IMHO have a moral obligation to continue.

The one point I'm still unsure on, is what guarantees were given about the music when the plant started. A lot has been claimed but getting to the nub of it is vital.

The church seem to be wholly at fault. Who's to say, thought that there haven't been a few ill directed remarks about the theology of the new plant, allied to a presumption about church use from various groups not directly linked to the church, which may have hardened already setting attitudes.

It's unhelpful to drag the theology of the plant into this - a move which would make anyone over defensive.

Posts: 3800 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Trust deeds only need exist when the Charity needs to be registered. This does not apply to C of E churches.Yes, it does apply to all other churches.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20802 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
C of E churches are increasingly required to become registered charities as their income reaches a certain threshold. I think some form of generic statement of trust has been agreed with the Charity Commission, but I'm not sure.

As far as St. Sepulchre is concerned, provided they don't breach Canon Law, or breach their duty as trustees, the PCC aren't really answerable to anyone, except the Annual Parochial Church Meeting. A Special Parochial Church Meeting can be 'forced' by one third of the lay members of the PCC, or an Extraordinary Meeting can be called for by one tenth of the Electoral Roll membership if the Archdeacon agrees. But in either case AFAICT they can only force a discussion and make recommendations to the PCC.

AFAIK, once a parish priest is appointed, the patron(s) have no power at all over her/his actions and can do nothing until the living becomes vacant.

Most of the apparent power of bishops etc. lies in influence and persuasion. The long term bruising effect of using the law in these situations, even when as with the Oxford Movement, the law was technically on the side of the hierarchy means that even where legal levers are available the powers that be are reluctant to face the uncertainty, negative publicity and cost of using them. Legal victories in this sort of situation tent to be Pyrrhic.

Posts: 3334 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
I notice that the Musicians' Chapel at St. Sepulchre's seems to have a life of its own:

http://www.musicianschapel.org.uk/

There appears to be a degree of independence from the rest of the church's activities, so hopefully this will continue (the May 2018 service is already planned and advertised).

Time will tell...

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
If a CofE parish is to be registered as a charity - and you're quite right that the form now is for each parish to do so on an individual basis - then they have to satisfy the Charity Commission that they fulfil certain aims or bring "public benefit".

If the Chancellor of the diocese of London did his homework and was on the ball, then one of the charitable aims of St Sepulchre's should clearly be to act as the national musicians' church: IMV it would be astonishing if this wasn't included when charitable status was sought and obtained.

Next time I'm in the City I'll make a point of going to St Sepulchre's: first because I need to sort out an entry in the Book of Remembrance; second to see if they've still got the rather fine altar frontal and matching communion rail kneelers which were given as a gift in memory of Sir Malcolm Sargent, conductor of the Proms for many years.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4829 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
The Charity Act (2006) withdrew the presumption that the "advancement of religion" is, in itself, to the public benefit.

However, as the group "Stewardship" point out in this helpful paper, "The new rules on demonstrating and reporting on public benefit are in some ways a wake up call to the church. A call to think carefully and objectively about the positive impact that we, as a community of Christians make to individuals and to society, from the perspective of the outside world. This is very much a positive thing – causing us to evaluate and re-evaluate what we are doing and achieving. It may even cause us to refocus and do things better!"

Posts: 9655 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
The Church has been registered as a Charity since January 2015. On the Charity Commission website its stated activities are "ST SEPULCHRE'S IS PART OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND. WE PROMOTE THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, WITH A PARTICULAR FOCUS ON THE WORKPLACE AND MUSIC, AS THE NATIONAL MUSICIANS' CHURCH. WE PROVIDE REGULAR CHRISTIAN WORSHIP SERVICES, OPEN TO ALL; AND THE TEACHING OF CHRISTIANITY THROUGH SERMONS, COURSES AND SMALL GROUPS. WE ALSO PROVIDE A VENUE FOR THE STAGING OF CONCERTS AND OTHER EVENTS, SUCH AS LECTURE SERIES". This is bulked out by a reference to their Mission Action Plan which is appended to the annual accounts.
Posts: 9655 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Well, as I said, time will tell. That all sounds fair enough to this outsider, but I expect those with axes to grind will still be accusing TPTB and the PCC of being, in effect, liars and poltroons... [Disappointed]

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
second to see if they've still got the rather fine altar frontal

Surely HTB don't hold with such popish frippery.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23150 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Go to the Charities' Commission website and you can access the church's return.

Like any charity with an income of over £100K it has to register as an individual charity.

Points to reflect on from the accounts.

1.Concert fees and rental form a large part of the church's income. That income at over £300K is significant but declining

2. The Mission Statement refers to an aim of music excellence and the church's role of the Musicians Church. The report also refers to an expanding program of hiring. There's a Music Director and a Worship Pastor on staff. Is there any background tension between those two posts which has helped to generate more heat than light?

3. The church receives grant income from outside sources (e.g. Guilds) to fund certain aspects of its musical ministry. What control and/or strings do those groups have? What oversight does/can the church exercise over those "appointees?" Not every church would be happy with those circumstances as the vision//goals of such groups are not always compatible with those of the church

4. On both sets of accounts, the list of PCC members has one name redacted. Why? Who?

5. The church has access to income few other churches enjoy -- flat rental, parish rate, NET mast rental.

6. There's a very low % of charitable giving (around £10k). That's not untypical of parish churches as it doesn't include the diocesan share

7. 20 -25% of income is spent on church running expenses (excluding salaries) Seems high

Posts: 3800 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711

 - Posted      Profile for Liturgylover   Email Liturgylover   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
It's worth mentioning that the weekly service of Choral evensong and monthly sung Eucharist continues as normal and is not affected by the dispute. There was a suggestion earlier that they had been discontinued but that's not the case.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Really? St Sepulchre's own website describes the Sunday service thus:

Our Sunday services are informal and lively, with contemporary worship, Bible-based preaching and prayer. They are underpinned by a desire to seek the presence of God, and grow in our faith. Each Sunday there is also a lively children’s programme. ...

We celebrate Communion on the 3rd Tuesday evening and 1st Sunday of every month.


There is no mention of any "monthly Eucharist" unless that is what is referred to about the 1st Sunday, but the website gives the firm impression that it is a "contemporary" service.

The website should be up-to-date, since it has been much altered since the meeting with +Pete to include stuff about music, such as

St. Sepulchre’s is ‘The Musicians’ Church,’ and music and musicians are at the heart of our ministry. We believe that God loves music, and that He delights in how we use our gifts.

Our vision is for St. Sepulchre’s to be a place where music and musicians are valued and appreciated, a space for musicians to use, and a place where they can encounter God.


At the moment this is just so many words; and it is astonishing that The Revd Ingall thinks that musicians can encounter God in a "space" but apparently not through making music.

It is still the case that the "concerts" button has nothing at all after a concert on 16th November: at a time when nearly every central London church is listing carol services and concerts there is zilch at St Sepulchre's.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4829 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
The choral services are on Tuesdays.
Posts: 9655 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
It looks to me as though they have a choral service every Tuesday evening. On the third Tuesday of each month it is a communion service rather than evensong.

My guess is that that is a long-established pattern in a church which for many years has had no Sunday congregation.

Posts: 3334 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Yes, I assumed that the 'monthly Sung Eucharist' was one of the Tuesday evening services.

I wonder if they have a full BCP Eucharist, or combine it with a shortened Evensong? A MW Report might be interesting, as long as it's from someone interested in liturgy rather than litigation.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
The music list for the "summer term" (the most recent to be posted online) suggests that the usual "canticles" and "responses" are replaced by a Communion setting. So a "proper" choral Eucharist, I suspect.
Posts: 9655 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Thanks, BT - I hadn't spotted that link!

The list is rather incomplete, but yes, it does appear that the 'third Tuesday' 630pm service is a full BCP Sung Eucharist.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711

 - Posted      Profile for Liturgylover   Email Liturgylover   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
The music list for the "summer term" (the most recent to be posted online) suggests that the usual "canticles" and "responses" are replaced by a Communion setting. So a "proper" choral Eucharist, I suspect.

Exactly. The weekly choral service on a Tuesday is Choral Evensong and that is replaced once a month with a Sung Eucharist.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
It must be quite a contrast to the informal Communion service on the first Sunday of the month! I do hope they at least use an authorised C of E Eucharistic Prayer, to keep the lawyers at bay.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582

 - Posted      Profile for Higgs Bosun   Email Higgs Bosun   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Though even this has been bypassed in the case of a church I know of. Not directly an HTB plant as far as I know, but a similar ethos: the (then) Bishop simply offered them the use of a redundant church and then gave it its own parish of which the boundary is the churchyard wall.

I know of a case like that. However, in that case the church's parish had been combined with the neighbouring parish a number of years previously. Apparently it is very hard to undo this legally. The bishop did not want to have the building deconsecrated and sold off, so invited a plant group to come, which needed the agreement of the combined parish.

In another case of the reversal of closures, the absorbed building became a 'Pioneer Ministry' within the combined parish.

Then there is the case of the combined parish, where the unused church building is now a (conevo) plant and is the parish church of its original parish. The other building and its original parish
are now combined with the active neighbour. Legally, this is moving a parish boundary, which is much easier.

Posts: 303 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
UPDATE

This from the St Sepulchre's website
quote:
We are hoping to work with a range of musicians and groups as we put together an exciting programme of services, concerts and musical events for 2018. If you are part of a choir, orchestra or group who would like to perform here at St. Sepulchre’s as part of our programme, do please let us know! (office@stsepulchres)

Saturday Concert Series

Throughout 2018 we will be running a series of monthly Saturday evening concerts (including rehearsal time for the performers) in partnership with a variety of different external musical groups, and including high quality classical and choral music both ‘sacred’ and ‘secular’. The series will run on the third Saturday of every month, and we invite choirs and orchestras interested in performing one of these concerts to get in touch for more information.

‘Music in Worship’ series of concerts with reflections

A series of evening concerts on the first Monday of each month, starting on Monday 5th February, exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.

So, to replace a schedule that used to average 8 or more high-quality concerts/ lecture-recitals every month they propose 2 only, with restrictions on one of them.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4829 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Well, at least it's a start, and maybe the programme will, in time, be expanded.

But to what restrictions are you referring?

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... So, to replace a schedule that used to average 8 or more high-quality concerts/ lecture-recitals every month they propose 2 only, with restrictions on one of them.

But that's over two per week. With that level of pressure on their day-to-day programme of ordinary church activities, they may have had a point.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7491 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711

 - Posted      Profile for Liturgylover   Email Liturgylover   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
In addition to concerts the music list for the long-standing Tuesday evening choral service has now been published and continues as before.

http://stsepulchres.org/choral-evensong/

Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
With 4 Choral Evensongs per month, plus 2 concerts per month, things are surely looking up. Perhaps, if the new programme 'works', more events may be added in due course.

BTW, what happened to those vague threats of 'legal action', whatever that may mean?

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
posted by Bishop's Finger
quote:
to what restrictions are you referring?
The "Music in Worship" slot on the first Monday of the month which will be (to quote the website)
quote:
exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.
What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject: so settings of the Mass maybe, but not a cantata, so appealing to a pretty niche market. And the whole thing will be packaged with "worship" which is likely to further restrict its appeal - after all, not everyone who appreciates the beauty of, say, Dvorak's Mass in D is necessarily going to be prepared to sign up for 15-25 minutes of "worship" and "reflection". That is fact - a friend enquired and was told they wanted music for worship only, not music with a sacred theme. In other words, they're already rowing back on the "compromise" reached with the Acting Bishop of London, etc.

posted by Liturgylover
quote:
In addition to concerts the music list for the long-standing Tuesday evening choral service has now been published and continues as before.
Not so. First, there is no Evensong after 5th December, just a carol service on the 12th December.

Second, the inclusion of Taize chant in a service of Choral Evensong is incredibly jarring, made more so by the fact that they don't necessarily relate to the readings: for example, on 5th December a chant looking forward to the Holy Spirit is coupled with readings from Isaiah (sins purged through the blood of the Messiah) and Matthew (Palm Sunday). Of course, they're using the wrong lectionary readings but the "reflective chant" wouldn't fit the correct readings either.

I also don't quite understand why if the service is on a Tuesday they're using the lectionary readings for the second Sunday service - but then perhaps the whole idea of a lectionary schema of readings is foreign to Mr Ingall and his merry flock?

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4829 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Oh dear, they really can't do anything right, can they?

First off, where's the harm in having a Carol Service (possibly with a joint Advent/Christmas theme) on 12th December? It's that time of year.

Presumably, although details are not yet on the website, the service on 19th December will be the customary 'third Tuesday' Eucharist.

Secondly, the Taize chants may well not be as 'incredibly jarring' as you suppose. This could be an experiment, which might, or might not, work, but IME such reflective chants can enhance, rather than detract from, a 'traditional' service.

Thirdly, as to lectionary readings, these are not the Law of the Medes and Persians, and can be changed if required. The Sunday readings may be used on the presumption that those attending will not have heard them on the preceding Sunday, for whatever reason.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject: so settings of the Mass maybe, but not a cantata, so appealing to a pretty niche market. And the whole thing will be packaged with "worship" which is likely to further restrict its appeal - after all, not everyone who appreciates the beauty of, say, Dvorak's Mass in D is necessarily going to be prepared to sign up for 15-25 minutes of "worship" and "reflection". That is fact - a friend enquired and was told they wanted music for worship only, not music with a sacred theme. In other words, they're already rowing back on the "compromise" reached with the Acting Bishop of London, etc. ...

I could see how one might object if a concert hall were to insist on liturgical music rather than just music with a vaguely sacred theme. This, though, is a church, not a concert hall. It's also the musicians' church, not the musicians' vaguely religious clubhouse. I don't see how one can justify objecting to a church saying that the sort of music it wants and is going to have is music that constitutes worship. Worship is what a church is about. That is what church music is for.

I don't know what the exact wording was of the compromise to which you are referring, but it's difficult any longer to interpret this complaint as one of either principle or integrity. It sounds more like objecting just that one doesn't like the current programme because it isn't the programme your friend would have chosen if it had been his or her job to choose it.

I agree with the message of Bishop's Finger's first sentence. I think it's fair comment.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7491 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582

 - Posted      Profile for Higgs Bosun   Email Higgs Bosun   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Last week I saw Lucy Worsley's programme on Evensong.* At the end they had some responses in a blues style, and quite jazzy. Thus, I can see that some Taize stuff could easily fit in with other suitably chosen music for Evensong. A bit of innovation at the Musicians' Church sounds appropriate. It is not as if there are no other places nearby doing choral evensong...

(*Partly because a friend at work has a son who is in the Hampton Court Chapel Royal Choir. However, there were no closeups of the lad.)

Posts: 303 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711

 - Posted      Profile for Liturgylover   Email Liturgylover   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Bishop's Finger
quote:
to what restrictions are you referring?
The "Music in Worship" slot on the first Monday of the month which will be (to quote the website)
quote:
exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.
What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject: so settings of the Mass maybe, but not a cantata, so appealing to a pretty niche market. And the whole thing will be packaged with "worship" which is likely to further restrict its appeal - after all, not everyone who appreciates the beauty of, say, Dvorak's Mass in D is necessarily going to be prepared to sign up for 15-25 minutes of "worship" and "reflection". That is fact - a friend enquired and was told they wanted music for worship only, not music with a sacred theme. In other words, they're already rowing back on the "compromise" reached with the Acting Bishop of London, etc.

posted by Liturgylover
quote:
In addition to concerts the music list for the long-standing Tuesday evening choral service has now been published and continues as before.
Not so. First, there is no Evensong after 5th December, just a carol service on the 12th December.

Second, the inclusion of Taize chant in a service of Choral Evensong is incredibly jarring, made more so by the fact that they don't necessarily relate to the readings: for example, on 5th December a chant looking forward to the Holy Spirit is coupled with readings from Isaiah (sins purged through the blood of the Messiah) and Matthew (Palm Sunday). Of course, they're using the wrong lectionary readings but the "reflective chant" wouldn't fit the correct readings either.

I also don't quite understand why if the service is on a Tuesday they're using the lectionary readings for the second Sunday service - but then perhaps the whole idea of a lectionary schema of readings is foreign to Mr Ingall and his merry flock?

Yes so. This is exactly what happened in previous years - the last service before Christmas was always a carol service. As to the Taize chant, the music is selected by the Choral services Director and the church has always used the lectionary for the Sunday even before Mr Ingall and his flock arrived.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Tuesday 12th is, of course, not quite the last service before Christmas, unless they intend to cancel the 'third Tuesday' Eucharist this year, seeing as it's so close to Christmas itself.

Maybe the Director and Choir are taking a break?

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711

 - Posted      Profile for Liturgylover   Email Liturgylover   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Tuesday 12th is, of course, not quite the last service before Christmas, unless they intend to cancel the 'third Tuesday' Eucharist this year, seeing as it's so close to Christmas itself.

Maybe the Director and Choir are taking a break?

IJ

Sorry, what I meant was that that pattern is a long established one in the church, and indeed elsewhere in the City churches most of whom hold their carol service in that week rather than the following week.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Yes, ISWYM. I guess many of the regulars at City churches will be 'Away' for the Christmas/New Year break.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
There is no Choral Eucharist down for 19th December. The office at SS thinks choral services will resume on 16th January. (The same office is also of the opinion that where the first Monday of a month is a bank holiday the "Music in Worship" concert won't take place so nothing in May and, in 2018 at least, nothing in April either.)

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4829 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
The first Monday in April, 2018, is Easter Monday, so there's hardly likely to be a huge attendance at any church, be it in the City or elsewhere!

The same surely goes for the May Bank Holiday, I would think.

[Roll Eyes]

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711

 - Posted      Profile for Liturgylover   Email Liturgylover   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The first Monday in April, 2018, is Easter Monday, so there's hardly likely to be a huge attendance at any church, be it in the City or elsewhere!

The same surely goes for the May Bank Holiday, I would think.

[Roll Eyes]

IJ

Indeed. I just checked on City Events and the number of concerts last year across all the City churches on both Easter Monday and May Day Bank Holiday was zero.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Understandably so, as clergy, choirs etc. take time to draw breath after Holy Week.

It will be interesting to see, nevertheless, what services etc. St. Sepulchre's provide over Christmas this year, and Holy Week next year.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
...and just dropping in to observe that there's a fair number of concerts arranged for November:

http://stsepulchres.org/music/concerts/

There's a problem with this? They seem to be updating their website as fast as they can, but clearly not fast enough for the would-be lawyers.

[Ultra confused]

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
There is no Choral Eucharist down for 19th December. The office at SS thinks choral services will resume on 16th January. (The same office is also of the opinion that where the first Monday of a month is a bank holiday the "Music in Worship" concert won't take place so nothing in May and, in 2018 at least, nothing in April either.)

The office staff probably have been told nothing definite yet about the resumption of choral services. And again, would it be the decision of the staff to make a decision that there's to be no concert on a bank holiday? I doubt it. It's scarcely fair to attack them.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6915 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
Well, it seems that, for certain people, St. Sepulchre's staff can do nothing acceptable.

[Disappointed]

To give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they are busily planning all sorts of services and events, none of which might necessarily be that easy to arrange, given the number of different people involved.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
…the church has always used the lectionary for the Sunday even before Mr Ingall and his flock arrived.

We usually use the Sunday Second Service lectionary for our midweek Eucharist. The Daily Eucharistic Lectionary really needs to be used every day if it is to make sense. The Sunday lections work for a weekly usage, but a proportion of the Wednesday congregation have already heard the Principal Service readings, so we use the Second Service readings. This gives a sense of flow/continuity from week to week with seasonal readings as appropriate, and readings which are able to stand alone without needing one to have heard the previous lection to get enough context to make sense.
Posts: 3334 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The "Music in Worship" slot on the first Monday of the month which will be (to quote the website)
quote:
exploring the importance and beauty of music in worship. Each evening will be around 60-90 minutes long, roughly three quarters of which will be music, with reflections on the music and worship alongside them.
What they want is liturgical music, rather than just something with a sacred theme or subject:
That sounds very restrictive, so is it necessarily the case? I can see a place for including music which isn't specifically religious yet which, played within the context of worship and placed between appropriate Christian readings and prayers, can be immensely inspiring and even challenging.

To take a parallel, one can sometimes include "secular" poems in a service which provide a powerful and thought-provoking response to a Bible reading or a sermon. Equally, one can use short video film clips to do the same. I'm not suggesting for a moment that St. S's has any intention of doing that, merely to say that the creative use of music in worship can encompass far more than "sacred" or "liturgical" stuff. The comment that this series will "explore" the use of music in worship seems to hint at this.

Posts: 9655 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582

 - Posted      Profile for Higgs Bosun   Email Higgs Bosun   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
This announcement has been made. It is probably not unconnected with the subject of this thread.
Posts: 303 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
IIRC, Bishop Pete mentioned it earlier in this thread.

Time will tell, but ISTM that throwing open all London churches - not just St. Sepulchre's - to fine music-making is a Good Thing.

Doubtless, the would-be litigators amongst will disagree.... [Disappointed]

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9810 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

Time will tell, but ISTM that throwing open all London churches - not just St. Sepulchre's - to fine music-making is a Good Thing.

Yes, I'd agree with that. With some caveats, of course - there is value in a regular concert series being in the same location, so people know where to go, rather than being at a random church each week / month / whatever. Plus, of course, not all churches are created acoustically equal.

But a central clearing-house of churches that are willing to be concert hosts has to be a good thing.

Posts: 4959 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
 
Post new thread  
Thread closed  Thread closed
Open thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools