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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The modern Lord's Prayer
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
As Nick said, so in New Zealand.
As there is no religion in (State) schools, and most parents weren't even sent to Sunday school, I don't know how many kids would have heard the Lord's (or any) Prayer.
A pity; in the Linguistics for Kids I did for some years it would have been a useful comparison with an even older form.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I have been told that it is actually grammaticaly incorrect to say 'as we forgive those who sin against us' For that reason I always say 'as we forgive them'.
"Those who sin against us" is not grammatically incorrect.
In our (TEC) church we use the modern version, which I'm fine with, but we have a handful of die-hards (including Mrs. Eluia) who continue to say the old version. They have to hurry a bit through "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" in order to finish at the same time as the rest of the congregation.
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Way back when, I remember there was a competition on the Ship to come up with a modern version of the Lord's Prayer. Not sure if anyone kept copies of the entries, some of them were rather good I recall.
Are you thinking of this?
Lord's Prayer in text message form
The most out-there version may be in the LOLCat Bible:
Ceiling Cat, who r watchin us, u can has cheezburger. Wut yu want, yu gets, srsly. Let us dis day has our dalee cheezburger. And furgiv us for makin u a cookie, but eateding it, same as we furgiv teh kittehz taht maked us cookiez, but eated tehm. An leed us not into teh showa, but deliver us from teh wawter. Cuz all our base n teh pwnage n teh +1s r belong 2 U 4eva&evah, srlsy kthxbai.
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Matthew_6
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Nick Tamen: quote:
I know I’m being pedantic, but that would be “as in the English BCP,” or a slightly modified version of the English BCP. What you call the “slightly modified version of BCP” has been the American BCP form since at least 1928.
My apologies; I am a Brit. I'm writing as a Brit and have no idea about the American situation. The Ship is good at challenging my parochialism.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Why? Do you perhaps revert to 1662 BCP if there are a lot of visitors?
(That's not a snarky question, BTW. The late +Michael Perham opined that, if the old rite i.e. 1662 had failed to 'grab' people, the newer Rite A - I'm going back a few years! - should be given a chance).
IYSWIM.
IJ
Pastoral, especially at funerals - it might be the only prayer they know throughout the whole service.
(Also weddings carol services)
We are the established church so nobody should feel like an 'outsider'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
This is my favourite version, and the one I use whenever invited to use the Lord's Prayer in my preferred version or language. It was actually originally written by Jim Cotter, whose Prayer at Night was incorporated into the NZ Anglican Prayer Book (apologies for the omission of the Maori) entirely by agreement, but which incorporation obscured its origins. The version of its trinitarian formula I know is "Life-giver, pain-bearer, love-maker".
Love-maker??!
Oy.
Sex as sacrament - with my body, I thee worship?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Oddly enough Love-maker is probably fine, pain bearer has more theological problems. It is not a doctrine I feel that is an adequate witness to God's self revelation but I do know it exists.
Jengie
[ 07. January 2018, 18:40: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
In my neck of the woods (I’m in England ) the new version is only known inside churches
The traditional version is the one known by the ‘outsiders’ who learned it at school and who are in fact still learning it in school.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I'm out of touch, but do non-church primary schools in England still use the Lord's Prayer? I'm pretty sure the one my daughters attended in the 1990s didn't, and the secondary school where I taught in the 1970s didn't either.
The law about 'daily Christian act of worship' is honoured more in the breach than the observance. Not that I bewail the fact; I just think we should be honest about the fact that we are a secular (or post-christian if you like) society.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm out of touch, but do non-church primary schools in England still use the Lord's Prayer? I'm pretty sure the one my daughters attended in the 1990s didn't, and the secondary school where I taught in the 1970s didn't either.
The law about 'daily Christian act of worship' is honoured more in the breach than the observance. Not that I bewail the fact; I just think we should be honest about the fact that we are a secular (or post-christian if you like) society.
This. Our local Primary is CofE, and I see the religious stuff up on the walls, and I'm thinking "you don't really believe this stuff any more than the people down at the non-CofE primary in the next village, do you?". Perhaps it's unfair, perhaps some do, but save the previous headteacher I can recall seeing many of them at church; then again, you wouldn't see me either because I gave up trying to coral three bored children through a tedious hour and go Elsewhere.
OK, I'll shut up now.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
Angloid asked:
quote:
I'm out of touch, but do non-church primary schools in England still use the Lord's Prayer?
Depends on the school - more specifically, on the head teacher / principal / CEO. Locally where I currently am, the C of E primary uses the modern version and the County school uses the trad. The County school takes Christian festivals at least as seriously as the Anglican school does.
But neither of the local secondary schools can be said to engage in religious activity except sporadically. Collective Worship (= what used to be called Assembly, in my experience) seems to be predominantly universalist / humanist wellmeaningness.
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
The URC modern form given in Rejoice and Sing is:
quote:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed by your name,
your kingdom come
your will be done
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Save us from the time of trial
and deliver us from evil
<snip>
This is the ELLC version.
(Those who mention it being the ICET version: this was true until 1985, but remember that the ICET hasn't existed for over 30 years.)
It is the version that I grew up with in the Anglican Province of the West Indies in the 90s, and which is still in use there today. Like mr cheesy, I default to modern language in prayer and worship. I can understand a desire on the part of some Anglicans to use older forms of English in public worship, as it is part of Anglican heritage, but the insistence of some Orthodox to do the same is a mystery to me.
The Church of England adopted the ELLC with the modification that "Save us from the time of trial" was changed to "Lead us not into temptation". I would be interested to learn why. "Save us..." avoids the problem mentioned by Gramps49, which seems to be reinforced by the CofE amendment.
I'm currently in the process of rendering the services of my church into English and the Our Father is proving to be complicated. I intend to use the ELLC version as a base but there are concerns to be addressed.
In particular, the document Praying Together gives different possible understandings of the line "give us today our daily bread", but makes no mention of the eucharistic connotations of epiousios (above the essence/substance/nature), which is of particular concern from an Orthodox perspective.
The French version used in our church is "Donne nous aujourd'hui notre pain substantiel", which is best rendered as "Give us today our substantial bread" but this seems wanting as it only conveys half of the meaning of the Greek of the Gospels. The sense of the Greek would be better rendered as "our supersubstantial bread" but that raises questions of whether such an invented word is "prayable". Though, as keibat mentioned above, the Greek word was itself a neologism, so perhaps supersubstantial or superessential might be apt after all. Supernatural is an existing English word that literally translates the Greek, (super + natural) but sadly this has other connotations in our language.
What do others think?
With regard to the discussion over "deliver us from evil" versus "deliver us from the evil one", my church already seems to have settled on the former for liturgical use in other languages, while recognising that either understanding can be extrapolated from the Greek and that both have their place in patristic writings and in the traditional understanding of Christians through the ages. So I shall stick with "deliver us from evil".
My bishop wrote an article some time ago on the Our Father, and one of his concerns with common French translations (which is mirrored in English translations, but seemingly in very few other languages), is the reversal of heaven and earth. In the Greek of the Gospels and in almost every other language into which the prayer has been translated, the realisation of God's Kingdom in heaven is mentioned first, establishing it as the measure against which the following mention of the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth is to be measured.
"On earth as it is in heaven" doesn't do a terrible job of conveying the meaning but it does seem to weaken it by reversing the structure given to us by the Saviour, so I have attempted to resolve this by placing heaven first.
As for sins/trespasses/debts the matter is settled for us and there's simply no question. Both established liturgical usage in our church and patristic writings make "debts/debtors" the only reasonable option for me.
With all of that in mind, here's what I've come up with so far:
quote:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed by your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
as in heaven, so on earth.
Give us today our substantial bread.
and forgive us our debts
as we forgive our debtors.
Save us from the time of trial
and deliver us from evil.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I personally like it, and would pray it, but you'll forgive me if I accidentally say "the evil one" at the end as Antiochian parishes here do.
Old habits die hard.
What a task...translation. Best wishes. I've often thought I wouldn't mind doing it (especially when coming across the phrase, "Let the nature of disembodied minds..." in a hymn; better, see Ode 9 below), but it must be a very tough, and thankless, task. Expect some 110 yo babushka or male equivalent to take issue with your word selection. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Of course, I meant "hallowed be your name". ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I personally like it, and would pray it, but you'll forgive me if I accidentally say "the evil one" at the end as Antiochian parishes here do.
It's what I'm accustomed to as well. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) In fact, for years I was under the impression that it was the correct rendering, and that the western churches didn't use it because their liturgical tradition has its basis in the Latin ("sed libera nos a malo"), which doesn't have the definite article.
While there's almost certainly truth in my reasoning, the underlying assumption was flawed.
quote:
Old habits die hard.
Don't they just!
Over this past weekend I have found myself standing out like a sore thumb as an ex-Byzantine because of some things I instinctively did, despite my efforts to unlearn them. On the other hand, there are some things I have always done almost alone which now I find every around me does, such as adopting the orans position for the Our Father and crossing myself at "deliver us from evil", which appear to be standard practice in our church but not where I used to be.
quote:
What a task...translation. Best wishes. I've often thought I wouldn't mind doing it (especially when coming across the phrase, "Let the nature of disembodied minds..." in a hymn; better, see Ode 9 below), but it must be a very tough, and thankless, task. Expect some 110 yo babushka or male equivalent to take issue with your word selection.
Hehe. I'm sure. Still, our church doesn't really exist in the English-speaking world so I kind of have a blank slate. I have a reasonably good, Orthodox translation of the psalms from the LXX, and the Mass has already been translated. It's the office and associates prayers that are my focus. Much of the material already exists in some form of English so it's just a case of tidying it up, compiling it, translating what doesn't exist, and ironing out some problems with existing English texts. The biggest task is adapting all of the music from the French to the English.
All in time.
[ 09. January 2018, 02:59: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
The traditional Welsh-language version refers to Debts rather than either Sins or Trespasses, and I'm fine with that, so much so that I generally use the Debt form when speaking the prayer in English.
I see that no-one's suggesting a literal translation of the first words in the Greek as Our Father in the sky...
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
The traditional Welsh-language version refers to Debts rather than either Sins or Trespasses, and I'm fine with that, so much so that I generally use the Debt form when speaking the prayer in English.
St Cyprian's treatise on this prayer expounds on the "debt" meaning well. As he's my patron saint, I have a certain fondness for his understanding of this.
quote:
I see that no-one's suggesting a literal translation of the first words in the Greek as Our Father in the sky...
The Jordanville translation renders it as:
quote:
Our Father Who art in the heavens
.
The word is translated in the same way in the Jordanville text of the Creed.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I personally like it, and would pray it...
After submission for episcopal review, some alterations have been made.
The bishop acknowledged that line 6 is very problematic to translate and that the solution in our French translation is inadequate, in that "notre pain substantiel/our substantial bread" only conveys half of the meaning.
"Our supersubstantial bread" (our bread above the essence) is a literal translation, which has its downsides. However, although it doesn't exist as a word in English, it does seem to be the most accurate way to render the Greek.
We considered that the Greek epiousios seems also to have been an unknown word when it was coined by the Gospel writers, and that we shouldn't be afraid to follow them in using a word that best expresses a specifically Christian doctrine, even if it is otherwise unknown in the language. After all, where else in life do people encounter Sabaoth, consubstantial, Paraclete, Theotokos, and numerous other words from Christian theological and liturgical jargon? Proper catechesis can remedy this, as familiarity with the theological concept of substance should result from any basic Orthodox catechesis about the Trinity and the Incarnation.
Regular use of these words in prayer makes them sound normal, as I discovered when the new English translation of the RC creed came out, and the Catholic blogosphere was up in arms about "consubstantial with the Father". I thought it unremarkable, but then realised that I had grown up since childhood singing hymns that ended "consubstantial, co-eternal, while unending ages run", and that maybe not everyone had this experience. My guess is that those people now say those words Sunday by Sunday without giving them a second thought.
Supernatural literally means the same thing as Supersubstantial and has the benefit of being an existing word in English. However, it already has connotations that would be unhelpful here, and might cloud rather than clarify the meaning.
As for "Save us from the time of trial", the bishop feels it departs too far from the received text and that of the Gospels. (Incidentally, the ELLC website suggests that this line was the most problematic in terms of the feedback they received from churches considering adopting the ELLC.)
The current rendering follows the French in use in our church in avoiding the suggestion that God would lead us into temptation.
The result is here.
[ 10. January 2018, 17:01: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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AndyHB
Apprentice
# 18580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Reading between the lines, I get the impression that one is trying to recite the modern Lord's Prayer from memory - a bit like running before you can walk. The printed words should be proveded and for all I know, there may be more than one version.
I have the opposite problem to the initiator of the thread. Whilst I was brought up with the BCP version of the prayer, I was also brought up with a couple of 'modern' versions even before the ASB and other newer liturgies came into existence. I struggle with the idea that an exemplar prayer that originated in Aramaic, went through Greek and Latin before getting into English 400 years ago isn't regularly used in a modern language form.
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Posts: 17 | From: S.Wales | Registered: Apr 2016
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
The Church of England adopted the ELLC with the modification that "Save us from the time of trial" was changed to "Lead us not into temptation". I would be interested to learn why.
To put it bluntly - General Synod of the C of E thought (and as far as I know, still thinks) that it knew better than any one else.
In the Companion to Common Worship, edited by Paul Bradshaw, you can find this comment:
quote:
"The ecumenically agreed version had not met with general acceptance in the Church of England in 1980 (when the ASB was produced) and the same was true in 2000."
This seems to suggest that an attempt was made to introduce the full ELLC text. But actually no such attempt was made - certainly not in the lead up to Common Worship in 2000. General Synod made the decision that the C of E would go their own way, regardless of what other denominations did and even regardless of what other Anglican provinces did. I thought it was a foolish and vain decision then and I still do.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Actually, a serious attempt was made to get the ecumenically agreed version into Common Worship, but General Synod decided not to give it a place which would lead to it being normally used. It can be found on p. 106 in the Common Worship ‘Main Volume’, and can be found more or less obscurely buried on the website
[ 10. January 2018, 22:17: Message edited by: BroJames ]
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm out of touch, but do non-church primary schools in England still use the Lord's Prayer? I'm pretty sure the one my daughters attended in the 1990s didn't, and the secondary school where I taught in the 1970s didn't either.
The law about 'daily Christian act of worship' is honoured more in the breach than the observance. Not that I bewail the fact; I just think we should be honest about the fact that we are a secular (or post-christian if you like) society.
A short period of collective silence is more likely.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
In The Salvation Army I don't think you'd hear the new form.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Has anyone else noticed that the traditional Lord's Prayer is truncated for Evensong? 'For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever' is omitted. Why is that?
[ 14. January 2018, 20:31: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
IIRC, the Lord’s Prayer appears twice in each of the BCP Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, and Communion services - in each case once with and once without the concluding doxology.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Gottschalk
Shipmate
# 13175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Has anyone else noticed that the traditional Lord's Prayer is truncated for Evensong? 'For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever' is omitted. Why is that?
That's how the Lord's Prayer appears in the old Breviaries and in the Roman variants of the Divine Office.
In the East, afaik, only the Priest/Bishop says the doxological ending, though it is still printed in prayer books, etc.
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Gottschalk
Ad bellum exit Ajax
Posts: 157 | From: The Kingdom of Fife | Registered: Nov 2007
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I may have mentioned this before ,once when visiting an old woman in a nursing home I found that she was unable to form words - all that came from her mouth was simply drivel All of a sudden when I said the Lord's Prayer it was as though her lips had been unsealed, as she was able to say the prayer perfectly. For 0 seconds I thought it must be a miracle, until I realized that she must have said it so many times throughout her life that it just came out automatically. Miracle or not ,it was a wonderful moment.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It's neurological -- the things you memorize are stored in a different brain file than extemporaneous speech. You might also have found that she could sing a familiar hymn or song perfectly well.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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John3000
Apprentice
# 18786
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Has anyone else noticed that the traditional Lord's Prayer is truncated for Evensong? 'For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever' is omitted. Why is that?
On the live radio Nine Lessons and Carols from King's Cambridge this year the Dean leading the congregation in the Lord's Prayer proclaimed "for thine is the kingdom" while the congregation, paying attention to their service booklets, said "amen". Rather deftly he stopped there and moved on to the next prayer.
Posts: 29 | From: England | Registered: May 2017
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
This frequently happens in ecumenical gatherings with Roman Catholics. Does anyone know when protestants began to add the doxology, and why?
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And don't even mention the Church of Scotland, with its single "for ever"!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I prefer
Save us from the time of trial and deliver us from evil (or the evil one).
Mainly because I do not think God ever intentionally tempts us. We do have trials most of our life but we can turn to God during those times for salvation, not in the sense of pulling us from the waters but in the sense of seeing us through those times.
But is that really what the original text states? The Greek text says, μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν (mē eisenégkēs hēmas eis perrasmón, ‘lead us not into temptation/testing’). That doesn’t translate as ‘do not tempt us.’ But it does state that God can lead someone into temptation or testing, and that is exactly what he dod with Christ, as we see in Matt. 4:1: “Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.” When we pray ‘lead us not into temptation/testing,’ we are asking God not do do with us what he did with Christ.
/Small rant/
I would also add that in 2005, the Norwegian Bible Society came out with a new translation of the Lord’s prayer. Many people in the church praised it, and thought that it would make almost everything better. As a priest I talk with a lot of parents who are coming for baptisms, and where I am that is almost everybody. The membership rate in my neck of the woods is 80-90 percent, and 93-95% of the children of members are baptised. So not only the ‘inner core.’ And we often talk about the new translation. I have yet to meet a single person who likes the new version. One factor here is that in my parishes, the written language is what we call ‘nynorsk’ (‘new norwegian’), as opposed to ‘bokmål’ (‘book language’), and it seems pretty obvious that the translators translated into the latter first, and then translated from that into the former. The result is a mess, where simple things like word order is just wrong. And they even managed to remove any trace of poetry and they made it into an elaborate office memo.
/Small rant over/
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gottschalk
Shipmate
# 13175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And don't even mention the Church of Scotland, with its single "for ever"!
Ha, never heard of that. Was it part of their traditions from Knox onward or is it a new thing?
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Gottschalk
Ad bellum exit Ajax
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I'm inclined to think that slight variations in the Lord's Prayer really don't matter as the intent and meaning of the prayer are the same. What does concern me when some visitors to church for wedding or funeral services are completely bamboozled when it comes to the Lord's Prayer as they obviously have never been exposed to it before - kids at school these days never hear the Lord's Prayer and their parents who never attend church are just as ignorant. Maybe printed copies should always be available rather than just expecting people to know what to say.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Readers in the Church of Scotland are advised to carry a copy of the Lord's Prayer with them whenever they go to lead worship. There is always the occasion when your mind goes blank. I really like to have a printed version in front of me simply so I know which version is expected (yes I am quite capable of deliberately doing my own thing if I want to).
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Maybe printed copies should always be available rather than just expecting people to know what to say.
I could point out that the BCP does contain a printed copy, so all we need is for visitors to be able to navigate it ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
But really what I'll do is say that for services that are likely to attract a significant number of those who aren't so familiar with church, we do print everything. Baptisms, weddings, and some funerals get this treatment.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Readers in the Church of Scotland are advised to carry a copy of the Lord's Prayer with them whenever they go to lead worship. There is always the occasion when your mind goes blank. I really like to have a printed version in front of me simply so I know which version is expected (yes I am quite capable of deliberately doing my own thing if I want to).
Jengie
On one occasion I led worship and had dutifully written out the Lord's Prayer in full... which meant I confused everyone because I'd missed a line when typing it out. For every plan there is a numpty who manages to muck it up.
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
This, he tells us, was the Scrumpmeister’s penultimate working version of the Lord’s Prayer :
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed by your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
as in heaven, so on earth.
Give us today our substantial bread.
and forgive us our debts
as we forgive our debtors.
Save us from the time of trial
and deliver us from evil.
I’m glad the typo in line 2 has been corrected, or an errant school of doctrine might have grown up around the theology of the Creator being sanctified through the agency of their own Name.
I have another quibble with modern versions, which is the replacement of 'IN earth as in heaven' by 'ON earth'. Paradoxically, 'on earth' makes more sense in a preCopernican understanding of the universe, where heaven is firmly located up there along with clouds etc. Surely we should now understand earth to refer here to the entire created universe, not just our little planet Sol III; and to my mind, 'IN earth' expresses that better. So I persist in saying 'in', not 'on'.
I’m also bothered by what seems to me to be the implication in 'the time of trial' that this is (specifically) about the End Times. Conceded, 'peirasmos' can indeed refer to that; but the Greek word doesn’t seem to have a necessarily temporal reference. 'Testing' seems a closer approximation to the meaning-cluster of the Greek, and retains relevance for our current troubled existences.
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I wonder if using 'sustaining' rather than substantial?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Gottschalk
Shipmate
# 13175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I wonder if using 'sustaining' rather than substantial?
Jengie
Interesting gloss - or perhaps more than a gloss. That bread which sustains us both spiritually and physically. Of course, this is also what made the Fathers take ton arton hemon ton epiousion to refer to the Eucharist.
The epi- in epiousion also indicates a quality that is beyond what sustains, beyond what is substantial. It is thus not mere bread, nor still lembas, but something that comprehends these and transcends them. The bread that preserves us, that preserves our substance by transforming it.
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Gottschalk
Ad bellum exit Ajax
Posts: 157 | From: The Kingdom of Fife | Registered: Nov 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I am playing with Scrumpmeister’s
quote:
give us this day our substantial bread
Which is a gloss already but seems to me in the English to imply quantity. I sat with it a while and just wondered if 'sustaining' might work better. He is trying to make the connection with the Eucharist that is perceived to be there in Greek.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Gottschalk
Shipmate
# 13175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I am playing with Scrumpmeister’s
quote:
give us this day our substantial bread
Which is a gloss already but seems to me in the English to imply quantity. I sat with it a while and just wondered if 'sustaining' might work better. He is trying to make the connection with the Eucharist that is perceived to be there in Greek.
Jengie
True any translation is already a gloss.Hence the difficulties of a liturgy to be "understanded of the people" that is ultimately derived from other languages.
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Gottschalk
Ad bellum exit Ajax
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by keibat:
This, he tells us, was the Scrumpmeister’s penultimate working version of the Lord’s Prayer :
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed by your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
as in heaven, so on earth.
Give us today our substantial bread.
and forgive us our debts
as we forgive our debtors.
Save us from the time of trial
and deliver us from evil.
I’m glad the typo in line 2 has been corrected, or an errant school of doctrine might have grown up around the theology of the Creator being sanctified through the agency of their own Name.
I did have the same thought. I can handle typos where the intention is clear, but where they actually form a real word I begin to kick myself ever so gently.
quote:
I have another quibble with modern versions, which is the replacement of 'IN earth as in heaven' by 'ON earth'. Paradoxically, 'on earth' makes more sense in a preCopernican understanding of the universe, where heaven is firmly located up there along with clouds etc. Surely we should now understand earth to refer here to the entire created universe, not just our little planet Sol III; and to my mind, 'IN earth' expresses that better. So I persist in saying 'in', not 'on'.
I would suggest that our modern understanding of the cosmos necessitates the opposite.
I know that prepositions are funny things, and often do not translate well from one language to the next. We might refer to being in a country while being on an island or on a continent. On the Caribbean island where I grew up, there is the expression "off-island", used to mean "overseas" or "abroad".
Yet certainly, in contemporary English, we do not refer to a phenomenon occurring in a planet unless we're talking about some subterranean event or process. When referring to events on a planet's surface, whether they be geological features or the functioning of societies, surely it's more usual to refer to such things as being on the planet. I have never heard anybody, for instance, have a discussion about whether there might life in other planets. The TV series was definitely entitled Life on Mars, and, as Monty Python exhorted us:
quote:
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
cos there's bugger all down here on earth
While I'm not in the habit of using the works of the good gentlemen of Monty Python as a foundation for liturgical texts, it does provide us with a good example of how modern English is used on this point.
I'm afraid I can't see any justification for rendering "on earth" as "in earth" in a modern English version of the Our Father.
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I am playing with Scrumpmeister’s
quote:
give us this day our substantial bread
Which is a gloss already but seems to me in the English to imply quantity. I sat with it a while and just wondered if 'sustaining' might work better. He is trying to make the connection with the Eucharist that is perceived to be there in Greek.
Thank you for your suggestion, Jengie, and for this clarification.
It probably speaks volumes that the reading of substantial that you suggest didn't actually occur to me, even though it is the most obvious reading in English. Certainly, that it how it would read to someone walking through the church door and not thinking theologically.
In truth, I don't like it. I used it because it was the clearest word adopted in the French version, which is the liturgical lingua franca of my church, if you'll pardon the expression.
I think that sustaining is a much better effort than substantial. However, the bishop has agreed that the French effort is a poor one and that we stick with supersubstantial. It is unknown in English but then we sing many such words in our hymns and prayers because of their accuracy, and we overcome the difficulty in understanding with catechesis.
[ 18. January 2018, 16:42: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
I've really enjoyed your posts on translating the Lord's Prayer, Scrumpmeister. Really interesting and thought provoking.
Among the thoughts provoked are these two:
First, given the Greek that has been discussed here, does anyone know how we got "daily" bread? (BTW, I know your bishop chose otherwise, but I really like “sustaining bread." Thanks for that Jennie jon. Definitely worth chewing on.)
Second, I was particularly struck by "as in heaven, so on earth," which strongly echoes the Hermetic "As above, so below." Was that something you thought about?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I wonder if using 'sustaining' rather than substantial?
Jengie
Interesting gloss - or perhaps more than a gloss. That bread which sustains us both spiritually and physically. Of course, this is also what made the Fathers take ton arton hemon ton epiousion to refer to the Eucharist.
The epi- in epiousion also indicates a quality that is beyond what sustains, beyond what is substantial. It is thus not mere bread, nor still lembas, but something that comprehends these and transcends them. The bread that preserves us, that preserves our substance by transforming it.
I don’t think we need to interpret it as something ‘mysterious’ at all. The preposition ἐπί (epi) simply means ‘for, at, over, to.’ So it seems to me at least that when you combine ἐπί and οὐσία (ousía, ‘being, existence’) to create ἐπιούσιος (eoiousios), it simply means that which is at or for the being or existence of the person. It seems to me, then, that it simply means the bread needed for existence; the bread you need to uphold your ‘substance.’ Maybe ‘life-sustaining’ is a good English rendition.
That doesn’t mean, of course, that yiu cannot interpret this also in a more ‘spiritual’ way, referring perhaps to the Eucharist or something else, but it seems to me that this would be something in addition to the more straightforward literal reading.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Could it be that the punctuation is wrong and is in the wrong place?
Could we not read:
And lead us;
not into temptation,
but deliver us
from evil.
Just a thought.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Could it be that the punctuation is wrong and is in the wrong place?
Could we not read:
And lead us;
not into temptation,
but deliver us
from evil.
Just a thought.
Don't think that would work in the Greek.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Could it be that the punctuation is wrong and is in the wrong place?
Could we not read:
And lead us;
not into temptation,
but deliver us
from evil.
Just a thought.
Don't think that would work in the Greek.
Probably not.
What investigation could be made into the word for 'lead'?
Is there an alternative translation that doesn't suggest that God leads us, as in directs us, into temptation?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Could a free translation carry the meaning, 'Instead of leading us into temptation, deliver us from evil?'
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
[ETA I think that’s a pretty good stab at the feel/force of that petition]
I think there are two difficulties. One is the word temptation, which doesn’t generally connote the ideas of being tested or tried which are there in the Greek. The second is that the rhetorical ‘trick’ used - something like affirming a positive by denying its negative - is essentially one that we don’t use in our language/ culture. (Another would be the love/hate idiom found in biblical texts). Essentially the parallelism means that we should read the first “lead us not” statement as having the same basic meaning as the “but deliver us” statement.
[ 01. February 2018, 21:35: Message edited by: BroJames ]
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