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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: new vicar- changes
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
Greetings! and newbie alert.
Recently a new vicar has been appointed to our church ( C of E ). He was quick to tell both the PCC and the ( paid ) Director of Music that he could do whatever he wanted in services as long as it is in accordance with canon law. Fairly drastic changes rapidly followed.
Aside from the point that this is not very courteous, can anybody tell me if he is actually correct?
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
The new vicar has a degree of freedom, but there are also limits which are set out in the Canons of the Church of England. Section B pertains to worship, and make it clear that in some things the PCC also has a say. One omission appears to be in relation to the time of services.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
The new vicar has a degree of freedom, but there are also limits which are set out in the Canons of the Church of England. Section B pertains to worship, and make it clear that in some things the PCC also has a say. One omission appears to be in relation to the time of services.
Thank you for quoting that. Canon B.3.1 states:
quote:
Decisions as to which of the forms of service authorized by Canon B 1, other than the services known as occasional offices, are to be used in any church in a parish or in any guild church shall be taken jointly by the minister and the parochial church council or, as the case may be, by the vicar of the guild church and the guild church council. In this Canon 'church' includes any building or part of a building licensed by the bishop for public worship according to the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England.
So, it would seem that the vicar is not entirely correct...
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
Greetings! and newbie alert.
Recently a new vicar has been appointed to our church ( C of E ). He was quick to tell both the PCC and the ( paid ) Director of Music that he could do whatever he wanted in services as long as it is in accordance with canon law. Fairly drastic changes rapidly followed.
Aside from the point that this is not very courteous, can anybody tell me if he is actually correct?
A couple of background questions
1. Was he interviewed for the appointment?
2. If so, what was said then about worship?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
That's a fair point.
The Parish Profile, or advert for the job, should not only describe the current services, but also indicate whether the congregation is willing to consider changes (e.g. the introduction of less formal worship, different times to fit in with another church etc.).
IOW, there should be ample opportunity for both prospective incumbent and PCC to discuss their respective views on this important issue.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I suppose parishioners can always vote with their feet.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Alas, that's what often happens in such cases...
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
What BF said upthread (not about voting with their feet).
It seems both sad and silly for any incoming clergyperson to radically alter worship right at the start of their ministry in a church, unless they've been explicitly invited to.
1. It just seems high-handed, especially if he appears to be changing things on a whim, without prper explanation. While leadership isn't about trying to satisfy everyone, nor is it simply saying, "We're going to do things my way". If new Vicar wants to "take people along with him", this isn't the way to do it. After all, it's their church (and, of course, Christ's!), not his.
2. Has said Vicar done any research into the community in which the church is set? Does he know if, or if not, the present format of worship is culturally relevant? Can he be sure that the new format will be more "attractive"? Has he asked any questions at all or is he simply of the opinion that the old way is bad and his way is better?
Of course there is a reverse to this coin: churches can be stick-in-the-mud and may need someone to press through much-needed changes!
[ 26. January 2018, 14:10: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If a vicar around here said they wanted to do things in accordance with canon law, I would welcome them with open arms ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
More seriously, yes, we've got an instance locally of a vicar who has tried to move things in a different direction to what the congregation were used to - in this particular instance by ramping things up in terms of adherence to the rubrics - and they've lost a heck of a lot of people and are now themselves falling on their own sword ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
Many thanks for replies so far.
In the advert/ profile we stated we are Eucharistic-based, central churchmanship (though to be more accurate there are some of higher and some of lower persuasion.)
We asked for someone who would respect and welcome the choral traditions, yet also have the skills to transform patterns of worship for future needs.
We expressed an openness to varied forms of worship.
On the PCC we know we need to change in order to grow and to reach younger families.
So the new incumbent, in less than two months, has dismissed the RSCM choir from two of the morning main services which are also to become non Eucharistic. ( one was occasionally, it included canticles and psalms)
The 10.00 am services will now be shortened to about 40 mins, with no musical input other than traditional hymns, to be more accessible to families ( who don’t come at 10.00 am anyway).
Needless to say the choir and DoM are not happy.
And that is just for starters.
The PCC has agreed the new pattern of services, subject to a review in due course. But actually other changes, not listed above, are in a way far more striking than those lmentioned.
I suspect we have shot ourselves in the foot by agreeing to the new pattern of services.
So much for making changes sensitively and collaboratively.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
And yes, he was interviewed, but the interregnum was already extremely lengthy.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
He has not disclosed any other plans to gather new families.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
Many thanks for replies so far.
In the advert/ profile we stated we are Eucharistic-based, central churchmanship (though to be more accurate there are some of higher and some of lower persuasion.)
We asked for someone who would respect and welcome the choral traditions, yet also have the skills to transform patterns of worship for future needs.
We expressed an openness to varied forms of worship.
The profile has invited (to my way of thinking) the state of affairs you find yourself in. You've mentioned respecting what's currently happening yet opened the door wide to change - in those circumstances it's easier for a leader to look ahead rather than behind and, in the process, overlook what's currently engaging.
An openness to varied forms of worship doesn't sit easily with a fixed tradition but you seem to be singularly unfortunate in your choice of Vicar who, on the evidence we have here (which may or may no reflect reality by any factor lesser or greater than 100%), lacks team building and change management skills. By agreeing to the changes I'm afraid the PCC have given tacit approval to their continuance.
By the way, left to their own devices how would the current Director and musicians have sourced and implemented the changes you advertised as being needed?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
And yes, he was interviewed, but the interregnum was already extremely lengthy.
It was probably lengthy for a reason. It generally is IME whatever the denomination.
This is the kind of stuff that is standard interview fare in any job or vocation that demands leading others in change. Oh dear ... not an easy solution and perhaps a tough time to come. Think though how he must feel - he's not what you want and perhaps the church s being revealed as somewhere where he'd prefer not to be
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
Some people are happy with the changes. Most of us are reserving judgement.
Yes, there are very specific reasons for the long interregnum, which I prefer not to divulge, to avoid identification.
I personally feel that he shows a lack of respect for our traditions by dictating what must go. A stronger word, used by some, is contempt.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
I don’t think the choir have any answers to how things should change. Certainly not a proliferation of worship songs.
The point that concerns me is that at the moment there is no immediate prospect of new people coming in who will appreciate the shorter, dumbed down services, yet quite a few core people who feel they are being ignored, who may well decide to leave.
It is the core congregation who give financially.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Buy your new rector copies of Bob Jackson's books - and get the bishop to present them with strong advice to read and follow them. A prime lesson from Jackson is that you don't upset your existing congregations by changing the regular pattern of services, but that you have new services at different times for the new congregations you're hoping to attract.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Not being in church leadership, involved with PCCs or anything of that kind, it strikes me as an odd thing for the new incumbent to do by shortening existing services in the hope that this will somehow attract a demographic who currently don't attend.
I could understand it if there was feedback to suggest that the length of the 10am services was putting young families off or young families were starting to attend and they felt the need to adjust.
But to make those changes and then expect people to suddenly start coming who haven't done so before seems quite naive to me.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Quite apart from the rights and wrongs of different styles of worship, it sounds to me like the vicar has violated one of the most basic rules of a new ministry:
unless there is a pressing reason, do NOT make any changes to patterns or styles of services for the first 12 months
A new Vicar's job is not to ride roughshod over the parish, but to pay attention to where the church community and the wider community is and then discern how to guide the church forwards.
Far too often, though, new Vicars act all macho. And it usually ends up a mess.
Let me make some highly prejudiced guesses about the new vicar:
a) He is evangelical - far more so than previous vicars.
b) He is in his 30s or possibly 40s.
c) He spoke earnestly at the interview about how he wanted to work WITH the church and move forward together.
d) This is his first incumbency after a curacy or he has just come from being a team vicar.
Sorry for being so cynical, but I've seen this kind of scenario too many times before.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Exclamation Mark posts: quote:
An openness to varied forms of worship doesn't sit easily with a fixed tradition but you seem to be singularly unfortunate in your choice of Vicar who, on the evidence we have here (which may or may no reflect reality by any factor lesser or greater than 100%), lacks team building and change management skills.
While I usually like to see different sides of the story, I think ExclamationMark may have hit the point. In such circumstances, I would write directly to the bishop, briefly outlining concerns, expressing regret that the vicar has taken initial steps without having articulated a plan for mission in the parish (administrators like the word mission) and asking him to assign a senior cleric to coach the vicar and assist him in working with the congregation as a whole.
I wouldn't delay with this, but move quickly before positions become entrenched and people continue to leave. Such coaching might actually help the vicar, who may be stressed and nervous about his initial steps.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
unless there is a pressing reason, do NOT make any changes to patterns or styles of services for the first 12 months
Let me make some highly prejudiced guesses about the new vicar:
a) He is evangelical - far more so than previous vicars.
b) He is in his 30s or possibly 40s.
c) He spoke earnestly at the interview about how he wanted to work WITH the church and move forward together.
d) This is his first incumbency after a curacy or he has just come from being a team vicar.
Sorry for being so cynical, but I've seen this kind of scenario too many times before.
12 months is way too long. You have become part of the furniture by then. No term can be given but don't do it too quick or leave it too long.
As regards the Vicar Profile you've added - probably true. My two big questions are these
1 Do we know the full extent of what's going on?
2. Why if he was interviewed was this not worked out in advance -it's not that hard to do. Did they think they could move an evangelical to a Central position? [Admittedly that's rather more likely than moving a central positioned minister to evangelical. Besides, aren't we all supposed to be evangelical?]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
Some people are happy with the changes. Most of us are reserving judgement. Yes, there are very specific reasons for the long interregnum, which I prefer not to divulge, to avoid identification.
I personally feel that he shows a lack of respect for our traditions by dictating what must go. A stronger word, used by some, is contempt.
Your new Vicar had moved a divided church. That's probably proven (I can guess but don't know) by the lengthy interregnum but is clear by the fact that his changes have been welcomed by a group in the church whilst others reject them.
It seems both from this post and your accompanying post, that there's a group in the church who feel upset and angry not at the change but because it's the wrong kind of change. Did they/the church make welcoming noises when these things were first discussed/mooted at interview? Were the divisions in the church (you referred earlier to a very wide spread of theological backgrounds) already there?
Having been in that kind of situation, I can tell you from bitter personal experience that everyone is now on a hiding to nothing. It makes me perhaps more sympathetic to the Vicar than I ought but I remember all sorts of broken promises and fault lines revealed as soon as I pressed a few buttons. The divisions were there, I did not create them but revealed them. That doesn't excuse any heavy handedness, power games or immaturity on the Vicar's part but I don't think from what I read that he is alone in that. Is he leading or responding to how he's being treated?
Yes of course he should listen to everyone but no one group should dictate the direction (and hence the practice) of the church. I know I come from a congregational tradition but this is where our ecclesiology scores: reflection, consultation, prayer and listening has to be built in.
ISTM from what I've read that pre existing issues were swept under the carpet perhaps in the forlorn hope that a new Vicar would sort it out. IME to hold it together and please everyone will be impossible - if the Vicar goes or is hemmed back as a consequence of these incidents, a group will still leave.
Without forgiveness grace and prayer the future is grim: perhaps a broken minister, a divided and dividing church and a destroyed community witness. [You can't keep this stuff quiet].
I can't be anything other than bleak as I have seen it time and again - the question is whether people's views and opinion are bigger in their mind than the gospel in these circumstances. That's likely to be the real loser.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
I don’t think the choir have any answers to how things should change. Certainly not a proliferation of worship songs.
The point that concerns me is that at the moment there is no immediate prospect of new people coming in who will appreciate the shorter, dumbed down services, yet quite a few core people who feel they are being ignored, who may well decide to leave.
It is the core congregation who give financially.
Everyone would welcome change but no one has any suggestions on what this looks like. Seems like a recipe for a problem in itself -- only my change is acceptable: I don't have any ideas: let's stay as we are.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I know I come from a congregational tradition but this is where our ecclesiology scores: reflection, consultation, prayer and listening has to be built in.
Theoretically you're absolutely right. But what may actually happen, sadly, are rows and political battles at Church Meeting.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Everyone would welcome change but no one has any suggestions on what this looks like.
Everyone says they want change - so long as it affects everybody else but not them.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I know I come from a congregational tradition but this is where our ecclesiology scores: reflection, consultation, prayer and listening has to be built in.
Theoretically you're absolutely right. But what may actually happen, sadly, are rows and political battles at Church Meeting.
yep - I know. Better though to do it there out in the open where everyone can see and hear.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Is there possibly a sense that the Vicar has been asked to revitalise an aging and shrinking Church with existing contradictory ideas about what Should Be Done, with expectations that he reverse its decline whilst at the same time doing nothing that someone somewhere won't like, ie changing anything more significant than the vicarage cat's flea collar?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I find this very sad. The OPer describes the church as 'Eucharist centred.' Any pastoral strategy therefore should start by taking this as a given, and growth must mean growing (in depth as well as in numbers) as a eucharistic community.
There are other models of church around, outside and within the C of E, but the idea that one man (and it usually is a man) can unilaterally change the priorities of a church should not be tolerated or encouraged by anyone. Certainly not the bishop who is ultimately responsible for the pastoral care of that community.
It's irrelevant whether this guy is 'evangelical' or 'central'. He is not there to impose his own theology on others. There are many examples of church plants from churches such as HTB, into eucharistic-centred churches (some decidedly anglo-catholic) where the incoming clergy maintain the eucharistic tradition while developing additional acts of worship.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
My experience of a change of Vicar after a long tenure (20 years or more) can lead to much unrest. Eventually, each became so established, as to be his own man. Either he would leave changes long overdue and in a rut, or else he would change everything beyond all recognition. As a result, feelings may become so heated, as to become stormy, very likely leading to a mass exodus. I can give examples of that by writing at some length.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
As with every situation, there are always other perceptions and interpretations of the same story, even of the same facts.
I don't think that, online 0 in this context - we can see 100% of the picture. In a glass, darkly.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
Many thanks for all the replies, with too many points for me to answer just briefly.
I would not have said we were a divided church. Loyalty is a paramount characteristic, in a congregation which, like the C of E itself, contains many ranges of theology and opinions.
Most people are, I think, prepared to give the new vicar time to show us what he can offer.
Those at the higher end regret that he has dropped the Gospel procession and acclamations, dispensed with other rituals, does not wear vestments and reduced the number of Communion services,
For PBS members it was unforgivable that he replaced some of the BCP prayers at the early service with extempore prayers.
For others, it was unacceptable that he seemed to have no idea how Evensong worked, and that he was expected to preach. In our church it is a sung service, though no robed choir, but many of the choir attend, plus others, so there is always SATB singing, with psalms sung very competently.
We now have a rota of people to be cantors, so that the format can continue. One issue satisfactorily dealt with at least.
This is not his first incumbency. He has been ordained about ten years.
I like the idea of him having a “coach” or mentor. He could have taken advice from the local retired clergy who have filled in during the interregnum, and moved the church forward considerably, but he has chosen not to.
As I said, I am reserving judgement for the time being.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
unless there is a pressing reason, do NOT make any changes to patterns or styles of services for the first 12 months
Let me make some highly prejudiced guesses about the new vicar:
a) He is evangelical - far more so than previous vicars.
b) He is in his 30s or possibly 40s.
c) He spoke earnestly at the interview about how he wanted to work WITH the church and move forward together.
d) This is his first incumbency after a curacy or he has just come from being a team vicar.
Sorry for being so cynical, but I've seen this kind of scenario too many times before.
12 months is way too long. You have become part of the furniture by then. No term can be given but don't do it too quick or leave it too long.
I disagree. In the first 12 months, you can do all sorts of things and you can begin to make plans to change the styles and patterns of services. But if you change the services immediately, all you are doing is imposing YOUR styles and opinions upon the parish. Far better to sit with existing styles and patterns for 12 months and see for yourself what works and what doesn't. In that time, you will also get a feel for what the parish as a whole wants (as opposed to the lies you read in a parish profile). If significant change is really needed/wanted, that will quickly become apparent from conversations, so that when change IS made, there is more likely to be a feeling of it being change that the church as a whole wants and accepts - there will be more chance of "ownership".
I've seen it time and time again - the new minister comes in and feels the need to "make their mark" as quickly as possible. So services change radically very quickly and almost everyone is left feeling upset and offended. It really doesn't have to be like that. In most cases, the best changes to services are the ones that are not imposed from on high but which are worked on together.
(I was always told that the word liturgy really means "the work of the people". Too often these days it seems to mean "the work done to the people".)
I suspect that one of the reasons why new vicars have this urgent need to make their mark so quickly is that they don't plan on being around for too long. If you are only thinking of a 4-5 year incumbency, you won't want to wait 12 months to make changes to services. But again, in my view, that is putting the wishes of the vicar above the needs of the parish. We are not there to inflict our wishes and personal foibles on the parish. We are there to help lead them forwards on the journey that they have been taking long before we arrived on the scene and which (hopefully) they will still be taking long after we have pushed off.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In this diocese, new incumbents work with a 'transmission manager' to avoid this sort of thing.
I like that. It would be good if that were the practice in all dioceses.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Two thoughts:
1. There should be an established mechanism for clergy who are leaving a parish to deposit (sealed) for their successor notes on the services at the time they left: what they are and how they run.
2. It should be the rule that any changes made during an interregnum must be formally notified to the Archdeacon with reasons given for why they are being made: this should help guard against the bee-in-the-bonnet type who frequently emerges during a gap in ministry hell-bent on moulding the liturgies in their preferred image.
If those two steps were followed then an incoming incumbent could see at a glance what had been the norm and also work out what empire-building had been going on during the interregnum - this last either by looking at the notified changes or by reading what had been the form and contrasting what he/she finds on the ground.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
unless there is a pressing reason, do NOT make any changes to patterns or styles of services for the first 12 months
12 months is way too long. You have become part of the furniture by then. No term can be given but don't do it too quick or leave it too long.
Twelve months is the length of time I’ve always heard recommended in my tribe that new pastors should wait before making or suggesting any notable changes worship-wise. This is for two reasons. First, it gives the pastor a chance to experience an entire liturgical year to better get a sense of the what works in the congregation, what doesn’t work, and where people's attachments are. Second, and just as importantly if not more so, the new pastor's focus the first year should be on building a good relationship with the congregation, which will in turn lead the congregation to be more willing to trust new directions the pastor might want to lead.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Buy your new rector copies of Bob Jackson's books - and get the bishop to present them with strong advice to read and follow them. A prime lesson from Jackson is that you don't upset your existing congregations by changing the regular pattern of services, but that you have new services at different times for the new congregations you're hoping to attract.
I agree with Jackson on this ... though it can be a recipe for clergy burnout if the clergy person is hands on with each service ...
But I think (after a few experiences of such matters) Puzzler's vicar is heading for a catastrophe. I've practiced both the "hit 'em before they notice" and the "spend a year getting to know them first" pattern and actually don't think it matters much. What matters is winning the hearts of the people - sadly including at least some of the gate-keepers, though sometimes they need to be disempowered and that's a tough call. In my last gig I think it's fair to say a few of the gate-keepers out-witted me, and I and the majority were gazumped.
When this turns to custard give me a call - I' should be fully registered as a dispute settlement person soon and that looks ripe for bitter stalemate. Or maybe offer me the parish next time - which could be soon ... I'm like totes a nice guy.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
(PS ... in my last gig I followed Nick Tamen's preferred pattern. In the end though I hit the "you change a thing and we'll screw you and we give the money" scenario. They won. Or maybe I was just an arsehole ... but that hadn't been considered the case in previous appointments so I shall hang tenaciously to the belief it wasn't all my fault!)
Good luck with your place, Puzzler.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Buy your new rector copies of Bob Jackson's books - and get the bishop to present them with strong advice to read and follow them. A prime lesson from Jackson is that you don't upset your existing congregations by changing the regular pattern of services, but that you have new services at different times for the new congregations you're hoping to attract.
....sadly including at least some of the gate-keepers, though sometimes they need to be disempowered and that's a tough call. In my last gig I think it's fair to say a few of the gate-keepers out-witted me, and I and the majority were gazumped.
This is the heart of the issue IME.
The big question is -- who holds the power strings in this church?
The reality is that however hard you try. whatever you might promise, there will be people there who just won't get on with you. They may have been close to dear Father X (same gold club, masonic lodge or something) but that doesn't work for you.
A distancing in one area in their minds represents a distancing in all areas. Since very few people (including Clergy) know how to lay down power with good grace, that's the recipe for disaster. Whatever he does/did/promised will not be good enough unless there's a readiness to work in partnership and to accept that even if nothing different is done, there will be changes simply because a new person is doing them.
OTOH you may well find you will lose people who have bided their time pending a new appointment. They want to see things done differently and may have been promised by the power brokers that it will happen with a new minister. They won't stay around long if it's the same old stuff with no hope of change under a new minister. There's no winning answer -- every new incumbent will pick up a church with all sorts of stuff - good and bad. A transition will always bring the bad stuff to the surface - when it may have been lurking underneath for years waiting to burst.
[Edited because I can and because I think that's what your UBB-management was meant to achieve ] ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
[ 28. January 2018, 19:37: Message edited by: Zappa ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Your new vicar sounds exactly like someone I knew a couple of years back, and who moved on to a new parish a few months ago. I do hope for all your sakes that it isn't the same chap...
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
unless there is a pressing reason, do NOT make any changes to patterns or styles of services for the first 12 months
12 months is way too long. You have become part of the furniture by then. No term can be given but don't do it too quick or leave it too long.
Twelve months is the length of time I’ve always heard recommended in my tribe that new pastors should wait before making or suggesting any notable changes worship-wise. This is for two reasons. First, it gives the pastor a chance to experience an entire liturgical year to better get a sense of the what works in the congregation, what doesn’t work, and where people's attachments are. Second, and just as importantly if not more so, the new pastor's focus the first year should be on building a good relationship with the congregation, which will in turn lead the congregation to be more willing to trust new directions the pastor might want to lead.
Also it needs to be put into a context where if they follow the rule of thumb in a similar denomination you do not become a serving elder unless you have been a member for two year. So I would say that it is at least two and half years before you are seen as part of the furniture*.
Jengie
*Actually ministers are rarely seen as part of the furniture. The congregation always knows they will be there long after the minister has gone. For change to stick it needs deep support.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
Just back from a good parish communion, mostly as we have been used to, but there is only one more of these before a dumbed down version replaces it. It seemed to me that the Gloria was sung with gusto. The two retired caretaker clergy were both there, and also some others we don't see very often. I wonder if that was significant.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
For change to stick it needs deep support.
Which is always the naysayers or stick in the mud's opportunity to derail it.
I don't believe in change for change's sake but responding to a changing world does mean certain adjustments have to be made in the church's ministry.
You will never have everyone with you -- the sensitive leader has to decide when they have reached the sticking point. Whatever is needed, whatever is said or done the rest won't come over: then you have to be brave and confident to go with the main bulk of the people. Sadly the power brokers are usually in the remnant as change removes their raison d'etre -
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
Just back from a good parish communion, mostly as we have been used to, but there is only one more of these before a dumbed down version replaces it. It seemed to me that the Gloria was sung with gusto. The two retired caretaker clergy were both there, and also some others we don't see very often. I wonder if that was significant.
It is significant because that's laid out the battlefield in front of the new Vicar. Here's what you're facing mate.
Hmmm I'm increasingly wary about commenting on this as there's much more than meets the eye here.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
Yes, more than meets the eye, of course.
My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that the new vicar would have done better to consult, maybe set up a small group representing all the services and those who rarely come, and listen before taking action on the style and pattern of services.
Whilst taking steps to get to know people, I would like to see him start to get in touch with less regular attenders and those families who come to Messy Church and recent baptism contacts and see what they want and when they would be able and willing to come. Or what alternative would suit them.
Depending on results, I would have expected any new service to run alongside existing forms of worship for quite a while before considering abandoning either or merging them.
I would have supported the musical tradition in the existing services.
I would not have thrown my weight around by telling people that I can do whatever I want.
Other internal changes eg what he wears, where he stands, what forms of prayer he uses, are less significant.
So that nails my colours to the mast.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
For change to stick it needs deep support.
Which is always the naysayers or stick in the mud's opportunity to derail it.
I don't believe in change for change's sake but responding to a changing world does mean certain adjustments have to be made in the church's ministry.
My interest in someways is in when change sticks. Deep here does not mean consensus.
I have told you of my home congregation where it took at least three ministers to reduce the number of hymns in worship from five to four. The first one did it and during the interregnum the congregation put it back up to five. The second likewise. The third took one hymn out but replaced it by the lectionary psalm which might be sung in the metrical form, thus connecting it with the tradition. It was a former Presbyterian Congregation where many members were used to singing metrical psalm. It stuck.
Jengie
[ 28. January 2018, 18:06: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
Yes, more than meets the eye, of course.
My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that the new vicar would have done better to consult, maybe set up a small group representing all the services and those who rarely come, and listen before taking action on the style and pattern of services.
Whilst taking steps to get to know people, I would like to see him start to get in touch with less regular attenders and those families who come to Messy Church and recent baptism contacts and see what they want and when they would be able and willing to come. Or what alternative would suit them.
Depending on results, I would have expected any new service to run alongside existing forms of worship for quite a while before considering abandoning either or merging them.
I would have supported the musical tradition in the existing services.
I would not have thrown my weight around by telling people that I can do whatever I want.
Other internal changes eg what he wears, where he stands, what forms of prayer he uses, are less significant.
So that nails my colours to the mast.
... and fairly fair, too, I'd say.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, indeed, although vesture and forms of prayer used are possibly important, given that they are prescribed by Canon.
IOW, the custom of the parish shouldn't be changed without consultation etc., as per the other matters.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
I've been on the other end of this one.
I waited for an incumbent to retire, confident (or at least firmly hopeful) that his wilder eccentricities and a circumstance which he no longer had the energy to address would depart when a new incumbent was appointed. I also stuck with the church through its interregnum because of this.
I left when I found that the new incumbent, who was sympathetic to what I wanted to see, felt himself unable to do it because of the opposition it would cause. Watching him distort himself trying to perpetuate the previous incumbent's legacy, when I knew he would rather be doing what I longed to see, was more than I could take. This was not entirely noble, I admit, but the frustration was just too much, especially seeing all that energy so much misdirected.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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