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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: new vicar- changes
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
It says that the sacrament is important enough not to be denied to anyone, and that it is not our place to judge people who bring their children for it. We can and should invite them to further their own journey of faith but we can't deny baptism to children because of our views about their parents.
As for why people find communion scary I don't know exactly - a combination of the emotional charge involved and the language used. Talk of sacrifice, of eating flesh and drinking blood doesn't sit well with a lot of people who are unfamiliar with it.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
In more trad CofE terms, knock out family-oriented, knock out all-age, stick with non-Eucharistic and what have you got? Basically Matins- a service which in many people's experience (including IIRC leo on here, during an interregnum) can turn out to be, perhaps counter-intuitively, very inclusive. Doesn't demand any particular action (no wondering whether you should go up for Communion, or apparent divide on this point between 'regulars' and 'occasionals'), and structured enough that you can flip ahead in the service book and see what will be happening. And, crucially, guaranteed non-patronising.
[ 04. February 2018, 15:51: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Puzzler
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# 18908
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Well it remains to be seen what kind of service we will get for the new family non- Eucharistic worship next month, baptism or no baptism.
Not sure I like the idea of a coffee break in the middle, after the peace and before communion, as the whole thing will end up taking all morning
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Bad (or no) preparation - though I don't mean that six-week courses should be compulsory!
CK is right about non-eucharistic Family Services in some churches, at least, as can be seen from reading Parish Profiles (some of them are honest re attendances!) when a new vicar is being sought.
We offer people the choice of Baptism within the 1030am Eucharist (where the baptismal rite occupies the place of the Creed, and is followed by brief Intercessions), or as a stand-alone service at 12 noon. Families who are not part of the present congregation usually opt for the 12 noon slot, but we do try to ensure that at least a few of the 'regulars' are present to help welcome them.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
That was in reply to BT's earlier post - I forgot to look at this page first!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Actually, I can easily imagine the conversation between the Vicar and the parents “When N was christened the service seemed to go on a long time after the christening. A lot of the friends of the family didn’t really understand what was going on. Although the Vicar was very encouraging about coming to communion or coming to the rail for a blessing, they didn’t really feel comfortable with that. Then people who were looking after little ones were really struggling to manage them by then. Will it have to be a communion when our baby is christened?”
In the face of that, a departure at the Peace, when there’s a fair amount of movement anyway may have looked like a good option, rather than making the baptism party sit through a sacrament in which few of them could partake, and many would not understand.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
Not sure I like the idea of a coffee break in the middle, after the peace and before communion, as the whole thing will end up taking all morning
10:45 start and done by just after noon, as I recall.
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bib
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# 13074
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Posted
I have noticed there are great difficulties when a new minister comes from a different type of church background, We have a new minister who would have our church services become places of fun and entertainment whereas we have more traditional reflective services with time for silences. It is obvious that he was used to more upbeat services and music and can't understand that his new congregation prefers not to go down that route. I don't think he will change his mind, but nor will we which will prove interesting as the year develops.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Pangolin Guerre
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# 18686
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Posted
Have I followed this correctly? The main service at a CofE church is going to be non-eucharistic? How does the new vicar justify this?
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Have I followed this correctly? The main service at a CofE church is going to be non-eucharistic? How does the new vicar justify this?
I understood the change to be a non-Eucharistic "family" service once a month.
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I have noticed there are great difficulties when a new minister comes from a different type of church background, We have a new minister who would have our church services become places of fun and entertainment whereas we have more traditional reflective services with time for silences. It is obvious that he was used to more upbeat services and music and can't understand that his new congregation prefers not to go down that route. I don't think he will change his mind, but nor will we which will prove interesting as the year develops.
I think I know your new rector. If so, I can say that someone described him as a man who came to liturgy late.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Pangolin Guerre quote:
Have I followed this correctly? The main service at a CofE church is going to be non-eucharistic?
Two things: first, it depends on how you define a "main" service - on numbers attending or time. It could be argued that any communion service is the main service, even if it takes place at 6am with only 2 people. In any case, in many rural parishes the main service always was Matins and you can often find this continues to be the case, but there will be a communion service as well.
Second, you're living in the past if you think the brand-new, bishop approved world of "mission-shaped" church with Alpha and coffee is going to see something as old-school and trad as communion as a requirement.
Some examples: within the mega-parish that is Holy Trinity Brompton there are 4 churches but you will only find a celebration of Holy Communion at one of them (Holy Trinity Queensgate); this is a common pattern with HTB plants elsewhere too: communion shunted off to a small outpost, frequently just a said 8am. St Helen's, Bishopsgate, only has communion once a month and it isn't a full eucharistic service per se, just a bare-bones said communion tacked onto the end of their 10.30am "meeting".
Outside the capital the pattern is the same: those churches which have been given a lot of money or planted (the ones bishops love to describe as "mission-shaped") either will have one communion service a month at the "main" time or, if weekly, it will be a said service only at 8am; typical examples of this can be seen in Sheffield and Chichester.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Which rather begs the question of what the 'mission' is about.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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It seems that our Deanery is rather fortunate, in that most churches still have the Eucharist as the principal mid-morning service on most Sundays - though some have an All Age/Family service on one (usually the first Sunday).
Even our local char-evo church alternates Holy Communion between morning and evening service week by week.
In country parishes, where churches are many, and clergy few, a monthly or fortnightly Eucharist (with Matins elsewhen!) might indeed be desirable.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Puzzler
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# 18908
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In country parishes, where churches are many and clergy are few, round here, they are likely to get one HC a month, and maybe one other, either matins or evensong, depending on what the ministry team can provide.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
I have just heard via the grapevine that one lady who is a regular at the early HC (BCP) says the new vicar does not seem to know what to do . I have also seen evidence of this in other services.
If he truly doesn’t know, he should
A) study the service carefully and give it some careful preparation
B) ask someone eg lay reader, retired clergy or those who assist regularly.
To my mind there is no excuse for being unprepared.
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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As to what “mission” is all about...?
I don’t expect that changing services in itself is magically going to fill the pews. Granted, we now have an evangelistic address at almost every service, but it is mostly, literally preaching to the converted.
I have not yet heard of any strategy for mission.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
I have just heard via the grapevine that one lady who is a regular at the early HC (BCP) says the new vicar does not seem to know what to do . I have also seen evidence of this in other services.
If he truly doesn’t know, he should
A) study the service carefully and give it some careful preparation
B) ask someone eg lay reader, retired clergy or those who assist regularly.
To my mind there is no excuse for being unprepared.
This sounds very much like gossip to me. Has she, have you, spoken to him about it? Until you have and it hasn't changed from the awful( assuming it is that and not just different), will you refrain from spreading your views wider?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
As to what “mission” is all about...?
I don’t expect that changing services in itself is magically going to fill the pews. Granted, we now have an evangelistic address at almost every service, but it is mostly, literally preaching to the converted.
I have not yet heard of any strategy for mission.
Mission is the work of God. There is no magic bullet IME. Mind you I'd be very surprised - as it would be unique in my experience - that your Vicar is literally preaching to the converted.
Assuming he is, for one moment, I presume you will now be leaving the building as a missional people? If you are, what/who are you taking with you and how will that now be informing and directing every part of life?
If you're not there yet then yu'll need the teaching you're getting.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Puzzler quote:
I have just heard via the grapevine that one lady who is a regular at the early HC (BCP) says the new vicar does not seem to know what to do. I have also seen evidence of this in other services.
If he truly doesn’t know, he should
A) study the service carefully and give it some careful preparation
B) ask someone eg lay reader, retired clergy or those who assist regularly.
To my mind there is no excuse for being unprepared.
I wish I could say I'm surprised but not now - maybe 30 years ago but not now.
When our PP was suddenly taken ill we were loaned the curate from a church in the nearest large town. Priested for 12 months, they were completely flummoxed by a said BCP HC service, even though we have a large print altar copy of the whole thing so they don't have to plough through it and think for themselves. The sidesperson on duty was treated to a 15 minute harangue afterwards about how "backward" it was for us to be using the BCP and how any church that wished to survive in the modern world should stop using same forthwith. They had no interest in a "dead" book and looked forward to the day when it disappeared.
However, the 10am CW Parish Communion fared no better: again, large print altar copy with everything laid out, rubrics in red, etc. The result was still chaos with the chap standing there saying "I don't know what you expect next" - frankly, it was shameful.
Now yes, this person had been thrust into the breach at fairly short (24 hours) notice but all the information was to hand and they'd had hand-delivered to their home hard copy the afternoon before.
The final straw was when they decided to leave as soon as the service finished rather than greeting people at the door, pausing only long enough to deliver themselves of a diatribe to the churchwardens about the fact that we use the NEH - they found the music "ghastly" and said the sooner we got rid of the organ and formed a music group the better.
We haven't felt moved to issue an invitation to come back to preach ... ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Unfamiliarity with the BCP is one thing, and the odd glitch could be forgiven, but what a lack of grace!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285
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Posted
I was astonished to read that HTB, does not celebrate Holy Communion/ every Sunday.Is this really true ?
I know quite well that St.Helens Bishopsgate,observes this
Sacrament sadly once a month.
A few years ago,I approached one of the clergy at St.Helen's why do you not have H.C. every Sunday ?
I was replied that it is not found in the Bible.
Very strange reaction and I strongly disagree with this vision.The Lord's Service on the Lord's Day is of course the Holy Eucharist/Holy Communion
Are C.of E. Bishops today so obsessed with money,that they allow practises that are not truly Anglican?
Even the great Reformers Luther and Calvin have Always been in favour of the celebration of the
Lord's Supper every Sunday
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Robert Kennedy
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Utrecht Catholic, in principle I agree with you. If that is correct and there is no 8am service, that is also contrary to the present canons. However, before judging another communion by the assumptions of your own, you need to be aware of a little bit of history.
The Reformers wanted to bring in weekly communion. However, they never persuaded a churchgoing community to agree. People had been taught before the Reformation that although there was Mass weekly, virtually nobody received, or if they did, it was at the most, once a year at Easter. It was just something the priest did. The congregation watched. Out in the parishes, the requirement in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer public that people should receive at least three times a year of which one should be at Easter, was a step up, not a step down, in the standard expected of the laity.
That standard was fairly widely known, and I think fairly widely observed.
In contrast with the Catholics, both Roman, and possibly, though I do not know, your own communion, the Church of England has not historically allowed Holy Communion to be celebrated unless there are a minimum of three people present to communicate with the priest. The expectation has been that most people present will receive.
The normal practice in many churches from the Reformation until the mid/late C19 would have been for the main Sunday morning service to have been Morning Prayer, followed by the Litany, followed by Holy Communion, but only what is described as Ante-Communion ending with the Prayer for the Church Militant, unless it was a Communion Sunday, when the service was completed. How many Communion Sundays there were in the year might vary. In some churches this might be every week but typical might be four times a year or once a month.
So, whether or not that is their real reason, if they do not celebrate Holy Communion all that frequently, very Protestant parishes can claim to have a tradition on their side . It is difficult to argue that such a practice is "not truly Anglican". Nor, though I personally would like to see more frequent Communion, can I follow your slur that this is somehow because our bishops are obsessed with money. I think that is unfair, a non sequitur and defamatory of our episcopate.
In the late C19 and much of the C20 until it became more difficult to ordain (and pay) enough people to priestly orders, the more usual practice became to have a separate said Holy Communion at 8 am, and Morning Prayer as a stand-alone service mid-morning. The latter was the main service and had the sermon. The faithful were recommended that once a month was an appropriate commitment for communicating.
There would be a separate Evening Prayer, which until the mid C19 was usually in the afternoon, and thereafter 6-6.30 pm.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Zacchaeus
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# 14454
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Posted
Canon law says that each parish should have Holy Communion service every Sunday.
However in this day of large teams and multi-church parishes, that Communion service can be at 8:00am at St Nowhere in the back of beyond and still be legal.
And with the diminishing numbers of clergy – more and more it is becoming impossible to hold a communion service every week not withstandinng canon law.
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Pangolin Guerre
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# 18686
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Posted
L'organiste, as to my living in the past, I'm accused of it so frequently that if a week goes by and I'm not accused of that, I start to think that my game is slipping. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
That said, what you describe in your second point seems not be the case in Canada, or, at least, not predominantly the case. When I was first hunting around for a parish (visiting eight or ten), the only time that the main service (i.e., 10:30 or 11:00) did not have communion was if they were doing Matins in lieu of (which I don't agree with, but is not something I can get too worked up over). And that was regardless of their position on the candle and whether it was BCP or BAS (=CW).
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
To underline Pangolin's point, I only know of 2 parishes (both in Toronto) which do not have a Eucharist or sung Matins as their principal service, and I've attended services in half of Anglican Canada's dioceses over the years (my fairly high score due to travels for Our Glorious Sovereign's bureaucracy). My acquaintance with TEC, south of the world's longest undefended border, suggests the same pattern of practice.
Some multi-point parishes (which normally extend for 30-50km) will have churches where they rotate priestly services and so some points may only have Matins for their Sunday service, but there'll be a priest around in a Sunday or two.
Canonical discipline for services seems to be stricter here, and there are perhaps only a handful of Canadian churches which do not use the BCP or BAS and, even then (as at Saint Onoforio's where I occasionally grace a pew), the changes are minimal. While travelling, I incline mkyself to places with a snort of incense, but even there I think I have only heard once or twice prayers for the Pope. It is not unknown to have the ruling bishops of a city included (e.g., John our Bishop, Terence the Archbishop of this city, and Irenée the Bishop, Colin our Metropolitan and Frederick our Primate).
When my former parish went through some travails (details available for a bottle of Lagavulin 16-year old), one of the arguments used was that temporary clergy would not be able to make their way around the BCP and an ad orientem altar. I did not make myself popular with the rector by suggesting that we simply not engage clergy who were too dim to follow the rubrics.
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
While interesting, what happens in Canada is largely irrelevant to what happens in England. As has been pointed out, it was the parish communion movement which set the expectation of receiving weekly *in England* (notwithstanding the efforts of sundry Anglo Catholics in earlier years) as late as the mid 20th century.
My own current parish church has *never* had a weekly communion. The most it has ever got to is the current twice monthly - and that's as part of a benefice of 7. When it had its own vicar it was monthly. The default setting out here in the sticks has always been mattins, with some parishioners *even now* only receiving on Easter Sunday (let alone 3 times a year).
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
they allow practises that are not truly Anglican?
Well personally I think anything outside the 39 Articles and BCP is a bit outre... There is no expectation in the 1662 variant that communion will be weekly.
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And is it true? For if it is....
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
It is protestant extremists who are non-adherents of the Oxford Movement and the fruits thereof, who take a literal and fundamentalist view of the 39 Articles, as thogh these are divinely inspired and fell-down straight from Heaven. These are not articles of faith, but statements of how Anglicans felt about doctrinal tenets, during one period in history now long past. Some of these are a tall order to us living in the 21st century.
To give just two examples - "The Bishop of Rome hath no juridiction in this Realm of England." (I quote from memory.) But in modern times, two popes have made pastoral visits to UK and warmly welcomed. Capital punishment is condoned, but at that time, capital punishment was not only for murder.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
they allow practises that are not truly Anglican?
Well personally I think anything outside the 39 Articles and BCP is a bit outre... There is no expectation in the 1662 variant that communion will be weekly.
Maybe it is not stated in so many words. But the rubrics that at that service the sermon will be preached, and that banns and other notices given out, strongly imply that is the expectation. Plus the fact that the liturgy is printed in the middle of the book, so that it will naturally open at the most-used service.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
While interesting, what happens in Canada is largely irrelevant to what happens in England.
*snip*.
Not entirely. I posted, as did Pangolin, to underline that Anglican practice is wider than that of the English Church. Indeed, that Betjemaniac and others hold to the XXXIX as juridicial in effect is not in line with the Canadian or US churches' approach to them. CoE≈Anglicanism, and possibly CoE≠Anglicanism, but not CoE=Anglicanism.
The outer provinces have long had an effect on the CoE, viz., how New Zealand's synodical structures were replicated in the CoE i the last century; and how TEC's BCP steered much of the course of 20c prayer book revision.
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Higgs Bosun
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# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Maybe it is not stated in so many words. But the rubrics that at that service the sermon will be preached, and that banns and other notices given out, strongly imply that is the expectation. Plus the fact that the liturgy is printed in the middle of the book, so that it will naturally open at the most-used service.
Let's see... Open's the book I have (I think my mother's or her mother's) in the middle. Oh, in the middle of the Hymns A&M. Find the last page of the actual prayer book which is p474. (Ah, the 39 Articles, that's handy). What is at p237 (halfway)? The Form of Solemnization of Matrimony, which follows the Order of Confirmation, which is preceeded by the two baptism services, and before those comes the The Order if the Administration of the Lord's Supper (p185).
My memory as a boy was that it was always hard to find the Communion service in the church prayer books, whereas finding Morning Prayer, the first proper service, was much easier. Also, the Collects, Epistles and Gospels for the Sundays of the year follow the orders for Morning and Evening Prayer.
Perhaps most interestingly for the current debate, is this rubric in the order for the Lord's Supper:
quote:
When the Minister giveth warning for the celebration of the holy Communion, (which he shall always do upon the Sunday, or some Holy-day, immediately preceding,) after the Sermon or Homily ended, he shall read this Exhortation following.
Dearly beloved, on ---day next I purpose, through God's assistance, to administer to all such as shall be religiously and devoutly disposed the most comfortable Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ;...
This seems to imply to me that according to the BCP, the Holy Communion was not a regular occurance since it required announcing in advance.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
It is protestant extremists who are non-adherents of the Oxford Movement and the fruits thereof, who take a literal and fundamentalist view of the 39 Articles, as thogh these are divinely inspired and fell-down straight from Heaven. These are not articles of faith, but statements of how Anglicans felt about doctrinal tenets, during one period in history now long past. Some of these are a tall order to us living in the 21st century.
To give just two examples - "The Bishop of Rome hath no juridiction in this Realm of England." (I quote from memory.) But in modern times, two popes have made pastoral visits to UK and warmly welcomed. Capital punishment is condoned, but at that time, capital punishment was not only for murder.
I think you'll find- I may be mistaken and am happy to be corrected- that BXVI, at least visited as the head of state of the Vatican City State and not as Bishop of Rome as such. (Either way, I thought it was a pretty blatant and ultimately not very successful attempt by Brown's government to hold on to the Scottish RC vote, but that's by the by.)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop, plenty of people in the CofE are what you describe as "non-adherents of the Oxford Movement" without being Protestant extremists. Nobody was an adherent of it until 1833 because until then it did not exist. In the history of the Church of England, it is the Oxford Movement that was an innovation. It's got little more claim to be traditional Anglicanism than Holy Trinity Brompton has. A lot of the things that Anglo-Catholics attribute to it, did not start to be advocated until a generation or two later. The real heyday of Anglo-Catholicism was the years after the Anglo-Catholic Congresses of the 1920s.
You may not like the 39 Articles. It may be that other provinces may have cut themselves loose from them. But as far as we are concerned, they are still endorsed by Canon A5.
Plenty of people may think the Holy Scriptures, the teachings of the Fathers and the ancient creeds are "a bit of a tall order to us living in the 21st century", but that doesn't mean they just belong to "one period in history now long past". Being a bit of a tall order to 21st century man or woman, does not make anything any less true.
Besides, the Bishop of Rome still has no jurisdiction in this realm. He can't collect Annates or Peter's Pence off CofE clergy. A Papal Bull doesn't change the law here. Nor does a Catholic annulment dissolve a marriage here.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
What Enoch says is quite true, except for his narrow view of 'the history of the Church of England.' The whole point of the Oxford Movement was to insist that the history of the Church of England did not start in the 16th century, but that it was and is continuous with the Catholic Church present in these islands from at least half a millennium or more after the birth of Christ.
That's why some us get a bit edgy when others talk about 'the traditions of the C of E' but going back no further than the Book of Common Prayer and the 39 Articles.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
Betjemaniac, I thought that it was clear that I was responding to L'Organiste's jab that I was living in the past. My description of what happens on the ground here in The Dominion was to explain that what was described as "the past" is, here, very much the present. That you sniffily dismiss what happens in another part of our global communion as "irrelevant" is condescending, and I would have thought, beneath you.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Betjemaniac, I thought that it was clear that I was responding to L'Organiste's jab that I was living in the past.
I apologise that it was clearly less clear that I was responding to the Canadian turn of the conversation, rather than you individually. I appreciate I could and should have used the quote function except I wasn't responding to you personally nor was yours the last post dealing with Canada at the time of my response.
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
My description of what happens on the ground here in The Dominion was to explain that what was described as "the past" is, here, very much the present.
Sure, but by the same token what is the present in Canada is not the present in England, and in a thread at least nominally about England I thought it was worth trying to (gently) go back to that.
Which leads us to...
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
That you sniffily dismiss what happens in another part of our global communion as "irrelevant" is condescending, and I would have thought, beneath you.
No. Leaving it at irrelevant would indeed be sniffy, and I should deserve picking up on it. What I said was *interesting*....but largely irrelevant.
Because it is interesting. I was interested. However, in the circs of the thread it's not going to be much use to the OP to say "but this is how they do things in Canada." Where it might be of *more* interest is to those in a position, should they indeed think so, to agitate for things to be more like Canada.
Finally, I am sorry that my words were so poorly chosen that they were apparently capable of your interpretation (particularly in re "sniffily") because that was neither what I was trying to say nor the spirit in which they were written. Any sniffs were happening in your head - as indeed was the condescension. This feels like an overreaction to a misunderstanding. Insofar as I could have helped avoid the misunderstanding through better choice of words and not posting while doing other things, I apologise.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Re: papal visits to the UK:
The visit by John-Paul II was a pastoral visit, funded by the RC church in the UK. The CofE made him welcome and there was a shared service in Canterbury Cathedral.
The visit by Benedict XVI was a state visit.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Betjemaniac, I thought that "sniffily" was being very generous to you. I can't speak for others on the Ship though.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Betjemaniac, I thought that "sniffily" was being very generous to you. I can't speak for others on the Ship though.
Oh. Well in that case it really wasn't clear then was it? Although in the same way you're attributing "sniffiness" erroneously to my post I can't help but (presumably also erroneously) attribute "personal attack" to yours...
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
Actually, you know what? 1480 posts in over however many years and never a cross word with anyone, then 2 people in one night impute all sorts of motivations to a (to me) fairly innocuous statement. OK. Bye.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
Enoch,The Oxford Movement,was certainly an innovation,however this was necessary in order to correct the mistakes made at the Reformation.
I am not against the Reformation,however I am still of opinion that a lot of errors were made,
when one looks at this movement,one has to conclude was it was very often more Political rather than Theological.
Thanks to the Oecumenical Movement ,the Liturgical Movement and the Second Vatican Council,the Churches are willing today to listen to each other.
It would be a wise decision to revise the 39 Articles,already suggested by the late Dean Matthews of St.Paul;s in the sixties in the former century.
Otherwise it will remain an historical document,rather out of touch with the the current theology and practise of the Anglican Communion.
Two Non-Anglican Churches,The Church of Sweden and the Union of Utrecht,the Old-Catholics in full communion with Canterbury have never been asked to subscribe to the 39 Articles.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
A comment
Ecclesiastical FlipFlops comment on the 39 Articles being they belonged to a specific time in history is good 'liberal' Reformed stance as adhered to by many UK Congregationalist both outside and inside the URC. You can see it in John Robinson's address to the Pilgrim Fathers if you want historical evidence and it is the URC statement of Nature Faith and Order for a more recent statement.
The Anglican approach is perhaps better characterised by John Newman's postmodern reading of them.
Jengie
*'liberal' means loose holding to the status Reformed Magisterium orthodox consensus and thus adopting certain aspects of the Radical Reformation. It does not mean Liberal theologically or morally though sometimes associated with those but ever so often is also associated with the conservative forms.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Clearly the XXXIX Articles mean different things to different people. Similarly devised during that era in history were the Westminster Confessions and the Augsburg Confessions. It is interesting to note that worldwide, these articles are left out of local equivalents of the Book of Common Prayer, such as in the USA and in South Africa; also in Prayer Book revision in England, such as the 1980 Book and in Common Worship, the latter in present-day use.
I am slightly amused at the suggestion that I may not like them, for in the 16th century when they were devised, there was clearly a need for them at that time. But today, they are not there to be liked or disliked, but remain as for historical reference.
“The Bishop of Rome” is one of many titles by which the Pope is referred to in that one Article. Other titles are – The Patriarch of the West; Vicar of Jesus Christ on Earth; Servant of the Servants of God; to name just a few. If the reigning Pope of the day came to visit the UK (including England) in 1984 and 2010, he might as well have come under any, or all of these titles. It gives a point to ponder that John-Paul II came on a pastoral visit and Benedict came on a state visit; for whichever of these two motives was designated at the time, I think effectively, both motives featured on each of these two occasions. For on each occasion, HM the Queen featured.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
It is interesting to note that worldwide, these articles are left out of local equivalents of the Book of Common Prayer, such as in the USA . . . .
The XXXIX Articles are in the 1979 American BCP.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
It is interesting to note that worldwide, these articles are left out of local equivalents of the Book of Common Prayer, such as in the USA . . . .
The XXXIX Articles are in the 1979 American BCP.
I have a copy of an American Prayer Book; I will have to check my information there.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Page 867. The section is entitled “Historical Documents of the Church.” That section follows the Catechism and includes the Definition of Chalcedon (451), the Athanasian Creed, the Preface to the 1549 BCP, the Articles and the Chicago–Lambeth Quadrilateral (1886, 1888).
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Page 867. The section is entitled “Historical Documents of the Church.” That section follows the Catechism and includes the Definition of Chalcedon (451), the Athanasian Creed, the Preface to the 1549 BCP, the Articles and the Chicago–Lambeth Quadrilateral (1886, 1888).
Thanks Nick Tamen. I am not at home as I write this, but I will have a look.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I am slightly amused at the suggestion that I may not like them, for in the 16th century when they were devised, there was clearly a need for them at that time. But today, they are not there to be liked or disliked, but remain as for historical reference.
I think that they are of somewhat greater significance in the CofE than mere historical reference. On ordination, or on induction (etc.), a clerk in holy orders must make the declaration of assent, to which the preface is:
quote:
The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church worshipping the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds, which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer and the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. In the declaration you are about to make will you affirm your loyalty to this inheritance of faith as your inspiration and guidance under God in bringing the grace and truth of Christ to this generation and making him known to those in your care?
To which the clerk responds with the Declaration of Assent:
quote:
I, A B, do so affirm, and accordingly declare my belief in the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness; and in public prayer and administration of the sacraments, I will use only the forms of service which are authorized or allowed by Canon.
So, the official line is that the 39 articles "bear witness to Christian truth" and a loyalty to them is required of the ordained. It has to be admitted that this is a watering down from the 1662 version.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
It is protestant extremists who are non-adherents of the Oxford Movement and the fruits thereof, who take a literal and fundamentalist view of the 39 Articles, as thogh these are divinely inspired and fell-down straight from Heaven. These are not articles of faith, but statements of how Anglicans felt about doctrinal tenets, during one period in history now long past. Some of these are a tall order to us living in the 21st century.
To give just two examples - "The Bishop of Rome hath no juridiction in this Realm of England." (I quote from memory.) But in modern times, two popes have made pastoral visits to UK and warmly welcomed. Capital punishment is condoned, but at that time, capital punishment was not only for murder.
In the 16th Century this was a live issue. The Bishop of Rome, prior to the Reformation did have jurisdiction in this realm of England. That's not quite the same as a state visit which is basically, the Bishop of Rome turning up and saying "Oh Hai!". The Articles of Religion are quite cool with that.
[ 08. February 2018, 15:12: Message edited by: Callan ]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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