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Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Is this perhaps just a none too subtle form of social control... ?

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Originally posted by New Yorker:
He gave a rather nasty sermon on hell that had me quivering!

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How often I have tried to duplicate it!

[ 26. November 2008, 13:58: Message edited by: Freddy ]

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Advent is about joyful expectation of Jesus' coming, and somehow the Last Judgement doesn't seem to fit in that.

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Psalm 35:17 Lord, how long will You look on? Rescue me from their destructions, My precious life from the lions.

Psalm 94:3 LORD, how long will the wicked, How long will the wicked triumph?

Habakkuk 1:2 O LORD, how long shall I cry, And You will not hear? Even cry out to You, “Violence!” And You will not save.

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
To me, Advent is certainly linked to the Second Coming of Christ. But maybe I don't associate the Second Coming much with Judgement.

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Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I think a balance has to be struck that roughly conforms to that balance we find in the New Testament. Yes, the mercy of God avails for all now in this dispensation of the Incarnation and the aftermath. Yet we also find in the New Testament plenty of parables that warn of the consequences of ignoring the poor, rejecting the outcasts and being unprepared for God's intervention in human affairs. They key note is stay awake, remain alert, have everything ready. This I think is the needful aspect of preaching about the Last Judgement (which of course is part and parcel of the Second Coming package).

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Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I think a balance has to be struck that roughly conforms to that balance we find in the New Testament. Yes, the mercy of God avails for all now in this dispensation of the Incarnation and the aftermath. Yet we also find in the New Testament plenty of parables that warn of the consequences of ignoring the poor, rejecting the outcasts and being unprepared for God's intervention in human affairs. They key note is stay awake, remain alert, have everything ready. This I think is the needful aspect of preaching about the Last Judgement (which of course is part and parcel of the Second Coming package).

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Originally posted by Seeker963:
However, the general perception of 'Last Judgement' is one of God smiting people. And I think that's the view that needs correction. Why do Christians always seem to get upset when someone offers a hopeful vision of God rather than a nasty vision of God?

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Originally posted by John Ellis:
That the holiness of God itself is hell for those who have set themselves against it was a new insight for me. And, for me, it did fit the various aspects of the Gospel message.

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Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Can someone explain the difference ? To say that God doesn't smite wicked people, but that those people experience his holiness as smiting just seems like a copout to me, where the consequences are the same but God somehow isn't responsible for them.

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Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Can someone explain the difference ? To say that God doesn't smite wicked people, but that those people experience his holiness as smiting just seems like a copout to me, where the consequences are the same but God somehow isn't responsible for them.

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I'm not ready to throw out the active smiting myself (since it does seem to shown as an active judgement in places in Scripture), but the other bit, holiness as pain, well, that works too.

I'll try some analogies (bear in mind that I've wine taken!) Suppose you have a person who has, of his own free choice, spent his life in a cave. Finally the day comes when he has no choice but to leave that cave for good--I'm inclined to think the sunlight will be v. v. painful to him! And yet it's not the sun's fault. It could (and should) have been otherwise. That he can't now bear the sun is nobody's fault but his own.

Lewis put it differently. "If they will not learn to eat the fruit the Universe grows--the only fruit that any Universe ever could grow--then they must starve eternally."

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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Lamb Chopped: I'll try some analogies (bear in mind that I've wine taken!) Suppose you have a person who has, of his own free choice, spent his life in a cave. Finally the day comes when he has no choice but to leave that cave for good--I'm inclined to think the sunlight will be v. v. painful to him! And yet it's not the sun's fault. It could (and should) have been otherwise. That he can't now bear the sun is nobody's fault but his own.

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I like your analogy. But I guess when the time comes I'll still be the one offering them sun glasses

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Can someone explain the difference ? To say that God doesn't smite wicked people, but that those people experience his holiness as smiting just seems like a copout to me, where the consequences are the same but God somehow isn't responsible for them.

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I'll take a crack at this too, to add to what Lamby and Seeker said.

The God of the rising stock market and the falling stock market is the same God with the same rules. A childish view of the market is that God becomes angry and causes the market to fall, but only children really think that way. Adults know that the market responds to events and attitudes in a complex but fairly consistent way, with the same God applying whatever He applies at all times.

We speak of the stock market as if it were a single entity, but it is composed of numerous individual stocks and transactions, each one of which has its own path and destiny. While the market as a whole advances or declines, individual stocks may or may not follow the trend. Still, they are all connected together and what happens to one affects what happens to others.

Similarly, humanity's happiness and well-being are presided over by the same loving God at all times. People experience joy or misery depending on a highly complex system of factors, just as the stock market rises or falls. God does not, however, impose misery, as primitive or childish beliefs would have it. Rather, people move into unhappiness in the same way that markets fall and enterprises fail - through persistent defiance of the applicable laws, whether spiritual or financial. God no more punishes those who are heedless of spiritual laws than He punishes those who are heedless of market forces. The punishments, if you want to call them that, are inherent in the laws themselves. That is, if you don't succeed you fail. If you are not aware and mindful of the factors leading to happiness you will experience unhappiness.

The Last Judgment is nothing more than the confluence of factors that bring an era to an end. Like the stock market, it is actually composed of millions of individual transactions, but our individual fates are nevertheless bound together in the common trends of our civilization. The judgment is in the situation itself, not God. The joy of it is that the end of an era is also the beginning of a new one - and in this case the new one is predicted to be a much better one.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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originally posted by Lamb Chopped
Suppose you have a person who has, of his own free choice, spent his life in a cave. Finally the day comes when he has no choice but to leave that cave for good--I'm inclined to think the sunlight will be v. v. painful to him! And yet it's not the sun's fault. It could (and should) have been otherwise. That he can't now bear the sun is nobody's fault but his own.

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Well, here's proof that all analogies break down in the end. No, really, the difference between my analogy and the reality is that the "cave" ain't gonna be there anymore--not because the big mean God has taken it away, but because it was only ever a temporary thing to begin with--more of an illusion than anything else--like dark dreams, which all come to an end in the morning. When the morning of the world comes, certainly there will be people who prefer the dreams to awakening.

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Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" (Rev 6)

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"At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." (Luke 21)

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Originally posted by Father Gregory:
In the western tradition Advent features Christ's Second Coming and the Last Judgement. In the eastern tradition this happens on the Sunday before Lent.

Is this teaching something churches here represented feel comfortable about in preaching and teaching? Maybe where you are you think that this is emphasised too much. Is this perhaps just a none too subtle form of social control as in the so called "Doom" paintings that towered over the medieval worshipper?

Note here that this is not yet another Hell thread. It's the actual Judgement I am interested in .... what will happen, how much attention it is given or should be given in the Christian life.

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