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Source: (consider it) Thread: When It All Goes To Hell
Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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When the Apocalypse hits or the Rapture erupts or all the world's economies actually do spontaneously combust...

When the real modern-day pandemic finally pans out or the infrastructure crumbles and you find yourself left on your own, in your own immediate region, among your own immediate neighbors, to sink or swim...

You could have a pile of gold ingots under your bed and still starve to death if there were no food to buy -- or if, for a time at least, gold meant nothing but bread meant a lot.

What survival skills have you got? What knowledge or experience do you have with which to barter? How would you go about making a satisfying "normal" life when nothing around you is anywhere near normal?

What would you do?

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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Great questions. And I thought they had a familiar ring to them. It turns out there are two threads in Purgatory tackling this very issue:
Not the first against the wall when the revolution comes
and, more recently,
What if the real market meltdown is still on the way?

I'll leave this thread open a little longer to see if you heavenly sorts can come up with a more creative approach to apocalyptic-level crises. [Big Grin]

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"Life is short, and we do not have much time to gladden the hearts of those who travel with us. So be swift to love, make haste to be kind."

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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That's why the Heaven attempt. When we're standing around in our recycled potato sack tunics willing to kill for a real bar of storebought soap rather than the lard-and-ashes goop, a bit of humor and creativity might lighten the load.

Won't do much for the B.O. but we could do with a laugh...

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Personally, I think it will All Go to Hell when Yellowstone blows. And since I'm a California girl, I'll probably turn into a popsycle among the frozen citrus in the ensuing volcanic winter.

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The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. ~Douglas Adams

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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594

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I intend to barter with my amazing childcare skills - I reckon they're going to be at a premium when things really get rough. A couple of hours of childcare has got to be worth some fresh veg or a bar of chocolate! As for the rest, my grandma made her own soap - I'm sure I have the recipe somewhere...

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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Personally, I think it will All Go to Hell when Yellowstone blows.

OOh! There was this really cool dramatization of that on The Weather Channel! OK, it was mediocre as far as drama goes, but it wasn't a bad way to waste an hour.

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"Life is short, and we do not have much time to gladden the hearts of those who travel with us. So be swift to love, make haste to be kind."

Posts: 18054 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

Ship's Feckless Layabout
# 10424

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We grow some of our own food and could make do with stuff produced locally - 14 coconut palms produce a fair amount of nutrition and our home grown mushrooms and spinach and stuff are great. HWMBO even owns some paddy field so we could eat our own rice, even if it isn't my favourite variety. We use well water so are not much dependent on local utilities - we are even hoping to install our own biogas plant in the next few months.

I reckon we will be better off than most.

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
I love talking about nothing. It's the only thing I know anything about. - Oscar Wilde
May the rainbow always touch your shoulder.

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piglet
Shipmate
# 11803

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quote:
Originally posted by Wiff Waff:
... we are even hoping to install our own biogas plant ...

[Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Snigger]

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Elspeth
=======
alto n a soprano who can read music.
You can talk to God in any language, but He prefers Latin or Cranmer's matchless prose.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I've got some primitive medical skills and even a little herbalism, might be useful. What frightens me is that I'm living close to a major faultline, and when that puppy finally blows, the whole city will collapse into our archaic 200 year old sewer system. And we will be in the shit, literally.

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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Campbellite

Ut unum sint
# 1202

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That's one advantage to living here. We're so backwards, when the end comes, it will take 200 years for anyone to realize it.

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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED? In memoriam: jlg

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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I'll pander to mortals' longing for immortality, bartering my writing skills (alleged, but I can bullshit [Biased] ) in order to write their biographies for time-capsulized antiquity. At a price [Snigger]

[Edit: bad start [Roll Eyes] ]

[ 31. May 2009, 05:04: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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sermons are back in fashion

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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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Well, we have a stream in the garden so shouldn't get too thirsty, and the garden's big enough to grow a fair bit of what we need if the weather would still be good enough. And I can put a big sign outside saying "Horse for rent for transport/son for rent for lifting heavy loads and general manual labour". And friends of mine have sheep so we could be alright for a woolly jumper. Well, assuming I can barter something for the services of someone who can knit one [Big Grin]
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cattyish

Wuss in Boots
# 7829

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In the People's Democratic Republic of Haddo we would be bartering our skills and home-grown veggies as usual. I signed next door's shotgun licence for him so he can shoot game while I bake bread and t'other side grows salad. There's a whole river just there. Mr C is good with practial stuff, I can do health and I suppose next door could be persuaded into defending us. Newcomers would have to prove their willingness to work over a trial period. I'm sure we'd all muck in to educate next t'other side's children. My main worry would be the withdrawal symptoms from TV Mr C would suffer. I'm not sure he'd cope.

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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Matrix
Shipmate
# 3452

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I do a mean Kermit the Frog impersonation. Really. You'll feed me and keep me a live just to hear it from time to time.

I can also balance just about anything from one finger, like, for a really long time. Honestly.

M

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Maybe that's all a family really is; a group of people who miss the same imaginary place. - Garden State

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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That balance thing could translate into keeping-so-still for-so-long that curious game and feral chickens and such can be grabbed, Matrix!

Possibly the Kermit thing would help out those with terminal TV withdrawals.

Hey, I know how to distill stuff. I'm thinking of good drinking water -- but I guess other stuff needs distilling, too.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321

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I can probably help out by dowsing for water.

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Still missing the gator

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Roseofsharon
Shipmate
# 9657

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I have a spinning wheel gathering dust in the loft and I guess with a bit of practice I could re-learn how to use it.
Our two long-haired cats are our only source of fibre, but I read recently of someone who collects all the dust-bunnies from around the house and spins them. I could do that, we've got plenty!

Then I can knit up the resulting yarn, so I can trade cosy scarves and gloves for other goods. [Big Grin]

[ 31. May 2009, 22:30: Message edited by: Roseofsharon ]

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Talk about books -any books- on http://www.bookgrouponline.com/forum/register.html

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jedijudy

Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333

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Oh, golly gee whiz. I guess I should practice my fishing skills. [Big Grin] Poor me.
I can catch 'em, clean 'em and cook 'em! Yum, yum. And the dill growing out back will be just dandy to add some extra flavor.

Bring it on.

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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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When we were down at the Gulf beach on Grand Isle Saturday, there were lots of fish about. Mostly what was visible to the casual observer was mullet. They were jumping, as they do, sometimes almost over the swimmers.

Not many of us here eat them -- I understand from my Florida-girl churchlady friend that they are loved farther East along the Gulf -- but, really, when it All Goes To Hell one cannot be over-picky about one's protein sources!

So, I envision taking the big castnet down to the beach.

But what will I do about sunblock? Have to wear clothes, I guess.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by Matrix:
I do a mean Kermit the Frog impersonation. Really. You'll feed me and keep me a live just to hear it from time to time.

I can also balance just about anything from one finger, like, for a really long time. Honestly.

M

Darn it! I was wanting the job of court jester to the local tribal warlord. I'll have to settle for Grand Vizier instead - I do a mean line in political spin and I have sufficient bare-faced chutzpah to make up enemies' horoscopes at a moment's notice.

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"Art and religion first; then philosophy; lastly science. That is the order of the great subjects of life, that's their order of importance." - Miss Jean Brodie

2013 blog: Wagner's 200th birthday!

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
...mullet. ... -- I understand from my Florida-girl churchlady friend that they are loved farther East along the Gulf

You mean the fish, right, not the hairstyle?


My big survival skill is I can make beer - and I have a hop-plant or two in the backyard.

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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I'm a spoiled city dweller who enjoys my comforts. If I don't get taken out by the big cataclysm, I'll probably just take a big dose of pain killers followed by a nice glass or two of red wine since there won't be any ice for martinis. As for the rest of you--have a nice Apocalypse.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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Oh, come live with me. I'll smear mud on you so the bugs don't get you, and we'll find you a useful skill to learn.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673

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Being a somewhat evangelistically-challenged pastor, I imagine that suddenly I'd find all sorts of people interested in coming to Jesus. For once, I'd do more baptisms than funerals. More than the faithful few would attend Bible study and musicians would be singing and playing from the heart.

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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)

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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673

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[Hot and Hormonal] Sorry; forgot to answer the OQ. What would I barter?

I suppose I could barter indulgences. If you have a boring preacher, I could write his/her sermon for him/her.

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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)

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jedijudy

Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333

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quote:
Originally posted by HenryT:
You mean the fish, right, not the hairstyle?

A mullet fish is delicious. The hairstyle is not even appetizing. However, you may want to know that a mullet (fish) is actually a bird. (Page two.) Really.

You can see them trying to take flight frequently. In fact, they are better fliers than penguins. (Sorry, Smudgie.)

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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.

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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Oh, come live with me. I'll smear mud on you so the bugs don't get you, and we'll find you a useful skill to learn.

If the infrastructure still existed for me to make the trek, I wouldn't need to resort to the pills in the first place.

In fact, if I could get somewhere and chose to try, I would want to go tropical--someplace where the fishing and the abundant plant life make eating possible regardless.

Unless, of course, all the radiation made the fish inedible. In that case the pills are still a better option--death from radiation sickness isn't pretty.

I can't say I have all the tools I would want, but if it came to it I have the skills to do woodworking without power--not that those first efforts would be gorgeous. Still--wooden plates, spoons, buckets, needles, looms, furniture--all those little bits one can't just run to the store and pick up any more--would have to come from someone. Those are pre-industrial skills, but aren't really going to be useful if we go all the way back to hunter-gatherer.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

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I do convincing... 'cow eyes'. Therefore when I am starving to death (which I calculate shall take approx 8 months without any food whatsoever), I shall look at whoever has the last scraplet (after the nuclear winter) with said cow eyes and say: 'Please Sir, can I have some more?'.

:violin:


quote:
Henry T
I have a hop-plant or two in the backyard.

Oh yes, is that wot they're calling it nowdays?!
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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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schnuur schnuur schnuur...

OG, even hunter-gatherers need awls and needles to sew. And a nice chair to sit on back at the palmetto hut. And a secure wooden box to keep stuff in back there.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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Ooooh yes - i've just remembered - I can make purring noises in the back of my throat ... I think that's a tradeable skill

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sermons are back in fashion

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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If my cat started to glow green, I'd hire you, Zappa. [Smile]

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The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. ~Douglas Adams

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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I attended a little gathering with my kids at a historic ol' house nearby a few years ago, led by one of the well-known tribal community members from Down Da Bayah, Kirby Verret. He also happens to be a Methodist preacher. He came up & over to the next bayou to do a demo of how to build a palmetto hut.

Not that housing styles of the First Inhabitants have a whole lot, directly, to do with the venerable family home of a historical old state supreme court justice; the facility just likes to make itself available for historical/cultural educational stuff. You can find classes to learn how to build wooden pirogues and canoes and so on. You can learn about what wild foods are still out there in abundance.

Anyway, one might have a general idea of how to build such a shelter, but it was a great thing to see every joining and joint and tie-off explained, as it was done. During the time we were there, it was just me and my kids and Kirby.

There was much discussion of which types of saplings make the best framework, and what to do for the smoke hole up top if you feel you need at least a smudge-fire inside. Stuff like that.

I think it's a great thing to preserve old ways and means, because it's good to know the history of your own people and your neighbor's people. It's enriching and mind-expanding, just generally a Good Thing.

But, see, when I view these things, learn these things, visit with people, always in the back of my mind is the bedrock idea that it would be a good thing to be armed with this knowledge, 'cause one day we just might need it.

Here's a link about a multi-media project done about the area, the Houmas, etc. Kirby and several others I know are mentioned.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734

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I can make jam, as long as someone else has grown the fruit, found some sugar, started a fire and hammered out a saucepan.

Alternatively, I am good at finding ways to make filter coffee without a filter. Does anyone know how to grow coffee?

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Jengie Jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Does it count that I know how to make oil lamps out of empty marmite jars?

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
my blog and thesis progress

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
when it All Goes To Hell one cannot be over-picky about one's protein sources!

Hmm. Perhaps I can be of assistance.

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7027 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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Since I've already admitted to being totally bourgeois, I suppose I can admit that I have taken a cruise vacation in the Caribbean.

On of the things our guide in Belize mentioned was that poverty in their country did not mean people were starving. There was plenty of seafood available for the catching. Coconuts, bananas, and other tropical fruits and vegetables grow wild and are easily gathered year round, and it doesn't take a lot of time to do so.

They don't have cash for clothes, medicines, education or decent housing but their nutrition is better than that of the urban poor in Chicago or London.

If the world really falls apart, your local weeds are going to need to feed you for a while--which gives me the perfect excuse to let the dandelions grow. If you live somewhere with snow, you are probably going to die. Have a nice day...

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3138 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

Ship's Feckless Layabout
# 10424

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quote:
Originally posted by Haydee:
...Alternatively, I am good at finding ways to make filter coffee without a filter. Does anyone know how to grow coffee?

They grow it in the hills just east of here - we have a bush but it doesn't really work at this sea level sort of altitude. But tea and coffee are easy peasy - at a push I could cycle or walk that for over a few days and bring some down. Treating it so that it is usable is another matter altogether but as I am caffeine sensitive I don't mind, just bring me some hot water.

We also have a cacao tree as well as cinnamon and nutmeg and cashew so our meagre rations would at least be tasty. We can even head to the seaside [4 miles] and make our own salt. Sadly sugar cane does not grow locally but we have loads of different varieties of bananas and other fruits about - bananas all year, of course.

If the whole world goes to hell in the handcart then presumably the Russians and the Japanese will no longer be hoovering all the fish out of the sea just in international waters so stocks will increase and we can get loads of fresh fish.

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
I love talking about nothing. It's the only thing I know anything about. - Oscar Wilde
May the rainbow always touch your shoulder.

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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492

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I can cook a steak.

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Posts: 28455 | From: Ambridge | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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quote:
Originally posted by Haydee:
I can make jam, as long as someone else has grown the fruit, found some sugar, started a fire and hammered out a saucepan.

Ooh me me me! Here I was thinking that I would be first against the wall in the Apocalypse and I've just realised that I do have a useful survival skill after all. I was the Girl Guides' top pyromaniac.

...and because the Guides like to do everything from scratch, I really do mean build a fire from nothing but natural materials. No fire lighters or any of that kind of cheating. Just some little dry leaves, a pyramid of little sticks, add the wood little by little (but not too much or you'll smother it) and voilą! I give you a very satisfying roaring inferno. Every year at the Guides' cook-out I used to win the "best fire" category [Big Grin]

I can also make a very handy pan providing I can scavenge a big tin of some kind and a bit of wire (and a screwdriver or something for bodging holes and attaching said wire).

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"Is she smooth or what? I mean, we are talking FRICTIONLESS BEARINGS here. If the beer here were that smooth, I'd be in the bar ALL DAY, dude, and I'm an AI construct, man!" - Demosthenes 0.9, brought to you by Eliab

Posts: 2428 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joan_of_Quark

Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887

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It's amazing what you learn on the Ship - up to now I'd thought a pirogue was a dumpling.

What worries me is that although I can cook, sew and knit, and my hands and feet are lethal weapons (especially if I forget to change my socks) I have zero experience of shelter-building, DIY, food growing etc. I'd have to team up with people (yuk! people!) in the event of a catastrophe.
Still, being used to walking miles because you don't have a car has to give you an initial advantage when the petrol first runs out.

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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness

Posts: 1018 | From: VickerSkool | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I can cook a steak.

Team up with somebody who knows how to catch one and you've got yourself a coveted skill.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Defrocked
# 473

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Most of the posts so far assume a peaceful acceptance of the situation. It seems far more likely to me that there will be violence and greed formed by desperation. Given this scenario, I'd be more likely to do what I always did in balloon debates - think everyone else had a better case than me and let them throw me out.

Hunger would lead to aggressiveness in some but passive acceptance in others. If there was only one crust left and everyone was fighting for it, I don't think I could be bothered to enter the fray.

Remind me that I said this when it eventually happens - hunger can do strange things to people.

(Now returning you to your happy thread....)

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"Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do without." - Confucius

Posts: 32991 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Most of the posts so far assume a peaceful acceptance of the situation. It seems far more likely to me that there will be violence and greed formed by desperation...

...which is why I was going to do pills and a nice cabernet. Maybe I would use the last remaining charge on the iPhone to listen to something wonderful, though it would be hard to pick what I would want to hear in my last half hour--maybe Mozart, or Schubert lieder. With a favorite book in my hand, I would be perfectly ready to go gently. Since my partner is diabetic, the end of modern civilization would be a death sentence for him as well.

It would be different if I were younger--but the beginning of a dark age is no place for an old poof...

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3138 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Joan_of_Quark

Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Most of the posts so far assume a peaceful acceptance of the situation. It seems far more likely to me that there will be violence and greed formed by desperation. Given this scenario, I'd be more likely to do what I always did in balloon debates - think everyone else had a better case than me and let them throw me out.

Perhaps because many on one side of the Pond are hoping their weekly practice at the range will be enough, whilst possibly wondering how on earth some of us can live in a country where only the criminals and the army carry guns.

Last time I was in one of those balloon debates I was still an atheist, and I have to admit I mentioned the martial arts skills. Not sure what I'd do now.

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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness

Posts: 1018 | From: VickerSkool | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Defrocked
# 473

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Well you could always shoot down everyone else's balloons. That way you get to have everything that's left without having to fight over it. [Biased]

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"Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do without." - Confucius

Posts: 32991 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
when it All Goes To Hell one cannot be over-picky about one's protein sources!

Hmm. Perhaps I can be of assistance.
Would you like to sacrifice yourself on the altar of my cookfire?

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594

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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
when it All Goes To Hell one cannot be over-picky about one's protein sources!

Hmm. Perhaps I can be of assistance.
Would you like to sacrifice yourself on the altar of my cookfire?
Janine, we really don't want to go there.

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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.

Posts: 2792 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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Might be preferable to the other things he could've meant.

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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Welease Woderwick

Ship's Feckless Layabout
# 10424

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Hmmm, "the secret's in the sauce!"

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
I love talking about nothing. It's the only thing I know anything about. - Oscar Wilde
May the rainbow always touch your shoulder.

Posts: 34920 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
cattyish

Wuss in Boots
# 7829

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If there's social breakdown a-la Mad Max then I reckon clubbing together with farmers is the way forward. In preparation many of my favourite clients are of that good profession. Many of them have guns, most grow veggies and loads of them have stockpiles of food and fuel. They are also used to hard work and can dance a mean ceilidh.

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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Posts: 1513 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged



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