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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Newfrontiers
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Pentepogo
Apprentice
# 14815
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Posted
Well here we are. Pentepogo is new to this board and would like to know what experiences any of you have had with Churches from the NFI stream.How do you find leadership? What do you think about Church planting? Apparently they have a new strategy? Have any of you had any major problems with leadership/eldership style authority etc?
Thanks
Pentepogo
Posts: 3 | From: Stockport | Registered: May 2009
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Jengie Jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Pentepogo
Why are you asking?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
my blog and thesis progress
Posts: 17646 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Hello and welcome to the Ship! There's a thread for newcomers in the All Saints board if you're interested.
I believe it's Eutychus who has pretty extensive experience of NFI churches so I expect s/he'll be along to enlighten you shortly.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 13106 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I used to see a lot of them many years ago. I do mean many years ago. Back in the 1970s, Terry Virgo and others often preached at meetings I went to. I and some friends quite often attended the Sunday services at Clarendon Church (and weekday meetings at Hove Town Hall before that) Though I was never a member, and never involved with any of their housegroups (which were of course the primary focus of the thing, at least at first) and I don't think I've been to one of their services since I last lived in Brighton in about 1985 or 86.
I had quite strong feelings about them then, both positive and negative, but they are probably completley out of date and irrelevant to you now.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 38272 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
Hi Pentepogo,
I was a member of, and was involved in leadership of, a Newfrontiers church in Bedford for about 3 years and then left due to a variety of reasons (mainly personal-emotional), which caused me to re-evaluate a large part of what I had just given 3 years of my money and life to.
The result before you is that I ended up joining the Orthodox Church and feel very, very at home here.
There are some positives and many negatives re: NFI, Eutychus has more horror stories that I to tell (he was higher up in the leadership hierarchy) but I've certainly seen and heard (and said and done) some questionable things.
My short take on the movement is that they are all 'about' trying to re-invent/re-discover/re-liberate the 'New Testament Church' (which is their Restorationist edge) whilst going about a mission of evangelism (their Evangelical edge) married up with 'signs and wonders' (their Charismatic edge).
My personal critique of these 3 'faces' is that Evangelism is so much more than they understand it, Charismatic thinking is a noble position but, again, the nature of the work of the Spirit of God in the Church is much more profound than they understand and that the 'early Church' never went away so is in no need of 'restoration' and rather they would do better to join it rather than create a parody of it.
But, nice enough guys - as long as you don't invest your sanctification, time and money.... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
ETA:
They are a bit like the Borg. Because they are part-evangelical (in the Reformed tradition), part-Restorationist (but in a very nuanced, low-polemic way) and part-Charismatic they can find a number of 'common cause alliances' with other traditions/churches (such as with the conservative evangelicals) but their agenda is to plant more and more churches (which would be part congregated by transfers from other congregations) and to grow larger and larger.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
ETA:
They are a bit like the Borg.
That really made me chuckle! "You will be assimilated ...", presumably.
As a non-member with with several friends in the movement, I can tell you that I personally resisted a move several years ago to associate my local indy-evo church to NF primarily because I thought (and still think) they were wrong about women in leadership. The movement also strikes me as a bit top-down.
By far the best thing to come out of NF is Phatfish!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 14572 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Hel
Shipmate
# 5248
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Posted
I did the Alpha course and subsequent discipleship course with an New Frontiers church, and then when I moved away I attended chruch and cell gorup with a different New Frontiers church for about six months afer that.
I'm very grateful to them for the Alpha/discipleship courses, which I think were a great grounding after eight years without any kind of faith but it wasn't the place for me long term.
Met some very kind and lovely people, but the ultra-charismatic stuff is just not me. I think the general feeling was that I would have to eventually lose my non-believing boyfriend (who is now my non-believing husband!) but that was just never going to happen.
Another friend went to a service at Pentecost with the church I attended, and described some of the church members as "flying up the walls crazy" and he meant that in a kind way but I knew what he meant!
Posts: 667 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Curious
Shipmate
# 93
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Posted
I went to a New Frontiers service just a few weeks ago. It was a baptism (why my godchild had to get 're-baptised' I don't know) but I was surprised at the lack of Scripture. Not a single reading! No intercessions (a couple of very short open-prayer invitations - one of which irritated the leader because someone started praying just as he was about to lead the next part of the service!).
Not my cup of tea - though everyone seemed very friendly, pleased to be there, welcoming etc. But the top-down, male only leadership really doesn't cut it with me.
Curious
[ 29. May 2009, 11:50: Message edited by: Curious ]
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Erin - you are missed more than you could know. Rest in peace and rise in glory - to provide unrest in the heavenly realms.
Posts: 1324 | From: Betwixt and between | Registered: May 2001
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Hel
Shipmate
# 5248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curious:
I was surprised at the lack of Scripture. Not a single reading! No intercessions
There weren't readings when I attended. There was a very long bible-based sermon though, so I guess you sort of got a dose of scripture through that.
I don't remember intercessions either, just the odd prayer when people felt called to pray. I found that quite liberating to start with - so different from the structure of the Catholic services of my youth - but after a few weeks I realised everyone who felt moved to pray, prayed the same things over and over again, it didn't feel very spontaneous any more.
And the people praying loudly in tongues all the time were even more distracting than the old Irish ladies loudly praying the rosary, who I was used to.
[ 29. May 2009, 13:16: Message edited by: Hel ]
Posts: 667 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
It also tends to be the same individuals who get 'led to pray' each week, IME.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 13106 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
I came across a very funny article a few years back which was a sort of 'mock' charismatic liturgy. Kinda like:
Pastor: Let us pray. Lord, we just really wanna, just, say, just Lord, that Lord, you are indeed really are, just, Lord in this place
People: Yeh, Lord!
Pastor: And that, Lord, we...
People: ohhh...yeh, Lord
Pastor:...just wanna let you know that we want you to just be Lord in this place, Lord
People: Allelujah!
etc....you get my drift
The usual NFI 'liturgy' is:
a) Upbeat introduction - intro extempore prayer
b) 30-40 mins of band led singing, dancing, waving hands interjected with prayers/'prophecies' & 'words' from the mike at the front which is woven together by a mixture of the worship leader/service lead
c) Announcements
d) Preach. Usually expository lasting anywhere from 30-60 mins depending on the church/preacher
e) If time allows, some more songs/prayers/altar call
f) Coffee
Baptisms get sandwiched between the liturgy of the band and the liturgy of the word.
The naffer NFI churches have wacky worship (lots of very odd/strange charismania stuff) and duff preaching, the slicker ones (including the bigger flag ship churches) have very sophisticated bands (with more stage managed contributions) and snazzy preaching.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) (But you missed out the "Mmmm"'s and "Mmmhmmm"'s that are an integral part of said liturgy.)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 13106 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Hel
Shipmate
# 5248
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Posted
To be fair to them, the band were pretty good and the preaching wasn't at all bad where I went. But yes, it was the same people led to prayer all the time.
And people seemed to retain the same Tourette-like tics week on week as well when they were being "led by the spirit" or whatever phrase was used. (NB I watched some of a documentary on Tourettes last night and it very much reminded me of my days at that church.)
Posts: 667 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Nov 2003
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
The up side is that they're pretty good at reaching unchurched and dechurched people (except for the cynical dechurched); discipling people; creating a sense of energetic church that it (mostly) feels good to be a part of.
The down side is that they think and act like they're the only show in town; they're very reformed in theology; they're minus two hundred score on women in leadership; and they're a bit doctrinally anal (PSA, obsessive pursuit of people they don't agree with) [comes of the Brethren/Free Evo roots that some of them come out of].
And they haven't got a succession strategy in place for after Terry Virgo.
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Pete
Posts: 1576 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
Joel Virgo?
On the plus side, they have clearer targets / directions / plans etc. than the denominations sometimes do.
On the negative side, very undemocratic, self-appointing trustees / elders, all sound men (which may work up to a point). It all rests in the qualities of two or three key men. If they are doing the right thing in the right way, then it's probably better than denominational bureaucracy. If they misuse their power, then it's all over.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
quote:
And they haven't got a succession strategy in place for after Terry Virgo.
I am really shocked Pete that known of the teams of prophets in the Willesden Area have told you about the end being very near. Being sooner rather then later there will be no need for Terry Virgo to have a successor the clouds will be opening up and the final battle will start.
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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
And they haven't got a succession strategy in place for after Terry Virgo.
Joel was an elder and co-worker with me in Bedford. He was planned to be heading to Zimbabwe to get involved in leading some of the churches there but was rapidly re-routed to become an elder at CCK (their flagship church in Brighton where his Dad was/is based and where he grew up). After a suitable period of time (about a year), and following 'prophecies', he was rapidly elevated to lead elder at CCK and is now cutting his teeth in that role as well as running the Yoof Newday gig.
Over the next few years expect to see increasing exposure of Joel on the wider NFI scene, in conferences home and away, and generally taking over more and more of the role that Terry occupies.
The Apostles within NFI have been well aware of succession issues for many years and have been slowly but surely instating their Sons as lead elders in all the main churches.
If their vision was so 'heaven sent' why the need to entrust the mission only to those directly related to them? It's more of a business franchise than the body of Christ.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
New Frontiers? Terry Virgo?
Get thee to thy search engine of choice and enter ye a search for anything about disability whatsoever, ever uttered in the context of NF or Terry Virgo. Their website, UK website, Virgo's site, Virgo's blog, any other references?
Managed to find one minor reference to a lad who was dyslexic after a long hard search, and one reference to Through the Roof (great organisation, love them).
1 in 7 people. Not a mention really. Nothing. Nowt. Nix.
Always interesting. What are they scared of?
Posts: 5066 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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fingerdoughnut
Shipmate
# 13822
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
The Apostles within NFI have been well aware of succession issues for many years and have been slowly but surely instating their Sons as lead elders in all the main churches.
Sadly, the NF are not unique in this respect. I am aware of another UK network where the fast-track to leadership is birth/marriage into an 'approved' family. Sad, sad, sad.
Posts: 157 | Registered: Jun 2008
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
Nepotism rules in the New Frontiers.
Remember thos of you who were there that the Disciples chose Mathias and we never heard of him again. God chose Paul and look what happened
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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
The down side is that [...]; they're very reformed in theology;
That's a downside? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
they're minus two hundred score on women in leadership;
To be fair there are a lot worse around. They allow women to preach (though not to lead housegroups unless they are all female IIRC) and women can preside at Communion (which is not a big deal for them of course)
quote:
[comes of the Brethren/Free Evo roots that some of them come out of].
I think Terry Virgo was a Baptist if anything. And quite a few of the original members and leaders of Clarendon Church (which later turned into CCK) were ex-Anglicans. Some of them had walked out of a church I was a member of.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 38272 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Wiffle
Shipmate
# 12872
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Posted
The leadership training was previously under John Hosier, a former baptist minister, and it's now being handed over to Andrew Wilson - in the UK, anyway. Aside from ecclesiology and heavy emphasis on charismatic gifts, it's essentially the same as baptist churches. Most of the teachers I know are opposed to prosperity theology, but occasionally it creeps in - mainly as a result of it's slightly too eager (?) use of charismatic gifts. I think that may be part of the reason for Amber's issue. It is being tackled by some churches, but it's certainly a big issue. I'm somewhat reserved and uncomfortable around charismatic services, but I feel well looked after and spiritually nurtured in my NFI church.
Posts: 338 | From: Brighton(ish) | Registered: Jul 2007
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
In 'No Well Worn Paths' (Terry's autobiography) he was involved with a Baptist church in Brighton which was in the 'cessationist' camp in the 60's. I think it was whilst he was at London Bible College that he had his first 'charismatic' experiences and was a great admirer of Lloyd-Jones. This is where his fusion of Charismatic Reformed Evangelicalism was hammered out along with buying into the ideas of Arthur Wallis et al.
It was the time of the 'charismatic renewal' in UK evangelical churches which led to a large number of congregations splitting and house churches springing up everywhere. Terry was amongst those in and around London who started to join up networks of these house churches into that blend of British Restorationism which Newfrontiers is a descendant of.
Dave Devenish, who led my old church, was definitely from Brethren roots as were a number of other NFI leaders but many were, as has been said, from Baptist origins. The Anglicans that walked were those who heeded Lloyd-Jones call to 'come out from among them' contra Stott's desire to stay within the CofE.
This makes their ecclesiology rather an oddity. On the one hand they have that congregationalism which is found within the Baptist/Brethren churches, but through their 'apostolic network' they have something rather akin to an episcopacy. To maintain the balance of control (from top-down) it's key that they have 'approved' lead elders in each of the churches - i.e. 'yes' men who are so 'on message' as not to challenge the apostles - and although each local congregation gets a nominal say in their leadership it's quite clear that 'words of knowledge' and 'profiling' occurs to ensure the installation of the approved individual.
I think that one can be a member of an NFI church and it feel rather like any other modern, lively, charismatic baptist congregation but the closer one gets to the ladder of leadership the more aggressively hierarchical it becomes. And I think it's this very controlling hegemony which leads SOME to suggest that it has very, very mild 'cult-like' tendencies.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
On the one hand they have that congregationalism which is found within the Baptist/Brethren churches...
I know very little about NF, but they don't sound congregationalist, traditional congregationalism being democratic and very big on each congregation's freedom from outside interference (ie no one outside has the authority to tell the local congo what to do). Trad congregationalists are far too 'pope in every pew' to be bossed around by self-appointed apostles
[ 30. May 2009, 16:40: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
Posts: 3738 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
Yerevan,
Yeh, but that's part of the disconnect going in on the system. One thing is promoted but quite another is practiced.
Don't get me wrong, within the Orthodox Church the authority of the Bishop is very great. I've no problem with hierarchical authority within the Church, but the problem I have with NFI is that this authority is covert rather than overt. The product most certainly doesn't do what is said 'on the tin'.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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fingerdoughnut
Shipmate
# 13822
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Posted
The following question could turn into a thread of its own but I'd like to kick it off here if I may as it is relevant. Why is it that NF is criticised so regularly on board the Ship? There are plenty of other similar networks around, e.g. Pioneer, Salt & Light etc but they never seem to get mentioned. Why is that?
Posts: 157 | Registered: Jun 2008
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
Speaking for myself, I have no context with any of those other groups so can't comment. Maybe it's because NFI is the biggest of them all and so:
a) Is most likely to have the great number of 'refugees' onboard
b) Presents the bigger 'threat' to orthodoxy and so is addressed more frequently on the Ship
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fingerdoughnut:
The following question could turn into a thread of its own but I'd like to kick it off here if I may as it is relevant. Why is it that NF is criticised so regularly on board the Ship? There are plenty of other similar networks around, e.g. Pioneer, Salt & Light etc but they never seem to get mentioned. Why is that?
They do? I would disagree with your premise. I don't think that New Frontiers is singled out in any way. My experience of them makes me realise that I don't like their theology or their structure but I agree with the others that they make people welcome and they are great at building community.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 1835 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fingerdoughnut:
The following question could turn into a thread of its own but I'd like to kick it off here if I may as it is relevant. Why is it that NF is criticised so regularly on board the Ship? There are plenty of other similar networks around, e.g. Pioneer, Salt & Light etc but they never seem to get mentioned. Why is that?
Fair point.
Partly because they have been more successful / organised recently, so they are a more serious threat to the establishment.
Also they are strongly anti-'ordination of women elders' and the Ship majority less tolerant of that position on the conservative evangelical side than on the catholic side, whereas Pioneer is pro-women's ministry.
NFI are not very ecumenical, even as that is understood within the evangelical community. They are usually more separated from other charismatic evangelical churches than is justified by theology.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Long before my time, the church of which I am minister underwent a split along charismatic 'house-church' and continuing Anglican Evangelical lines. Leaving Anglicanism was de-rigueur at the time for more ecclesiologically revisionistic charismatics within Anglicanism. Some time later these people went on to form a charismatic free church in the parish. Only later did they align themselves with New Frontiers, which I think was an appropriate move.
The situation now is that the NFI church is the local 'heavy-hitter' and the Anglican church from which they split (and of which I am minister) has dropped off the radar of the local community. Missiologically speaking NFI have got their act together, although some conservative evangelicals of a less charismatic stripe think that their methodology is overly pragmatic and technique driven. Theologically speaking NFI are also less conservative inasmuch as they are happy to use Alpha for their programmatic evangelism, whereas Alpha (among certain Anglican con-evos) is considered to be theologically sub-standard, possibly due to the charismatic emphasis but also due to its weak approach to sin and the sidestepping of God's wrath.
In many respects, the planting an NFI church in the parish (even if was a somewhat painful process) is the best thing that the church I lead has ever done. The problem of course is getting the two churches to see it that way!
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Formerly Call Me Numpty
Posts: 5782 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
Numpty,
The process you describe is exactly how a number of NFI churches in my area were 'planted'.
As for their numerical supremacy....they are very aware of (and use) various methods within the 'church growth philosophy'. They are very organised and being centrally driven allows for a certain military style efficiency.
My concern is that the growth doesn't take account of the 'revolving door' reality, that a lot is emotional hype rather than deeper maturity and that the 'attraction' is because of mixing their missiology with the Zeitgeist - where that will leave them when the Spirit of the age shifts is anyone's guess.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
I don't think that anyone's got it in for NFI per se. It is probably the exclusivism and the anti women stuff that makes them more difficult - we find it difficult to invite their leaders to speak at Spring Harvest because they won't share speaking and leadership with women on equal terms.
They're probably the one New Church in the UK that hasn't accommodated itself to the wider ecclesial realities. Pioneer went through its own (quite painful) reappraisal a few years ago, and came out stronger and more mature because of it. NFI still does the "We're the only kids on the block" stuff, which you can live with (and some would say that's what the CofE has done for years!) A lot of folk I know worship in NFI churches, but are quite privately critical of their plausibility structures and the tendency towards control (and would probably parachute out if it got more controlling!)
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Pete
Posts: 1576 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
So... no disability stuff, reports of an anti-women stance, and their website seems to show only white men leading things?
Which century is this? Someone remind me...
Posts: 5066 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I can relate to most of the analysis given here - it ties in with my several years experience doing research some time ago.
My particular interest was to discover whether people experience empowerment (which I defined in a cross-disciplinary way) through involvement with the New Churches (NFI, Pioneer, etc). I found that members did, indeed become empowered (e.g. in reading and praying in public, in giving words of encouragement or knowledge etc, in street evangelism, even in preaching. However when an individual's empowerment was perceived as beginning to threaten the position of the established leaders, empowerment turned to enfeeblement. For example, anyone who, without permission from the elders, took on airs and graces about leading a cell group or who tried giving spiritual advice to others was put in their place and sidelined.
I also experienced some horrific instances where the power of apostles was used to publicly humiliate members and in a few cases, humiliate other leaders.
Posts: 1628 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
At one time I'd have said that NFI was the only 'new church' stream that I'd feel comfortable with. Now, having heard and seen what can go wrong (not personally but with friends and relatives), I'm inclined to lump it in with the rest.
There are positives but it is big and it does vary ... some are more whacky on the charismatic dimension than others, for instance. As has been noted, they have sufficient 'reformed' credentials about them so as not to alienate many Baptists nor CofE Calvinists like Ken and Numpty. And for this reason they carry some clout in those circles. Just as their charismatic emphasis wins them friends and influence within pentecostal and other charismatic circles.
I wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole these days, but at one time I was tempted in their direction.
I think the key thing is what happens next, post-Terry. I'd imagine it'll hold together but there will be splinter groups gathering around some of the other personalities and apostles.
The nepotism thing is an interesting one. I've seen that happen in independent Reformed Baptist circles as well as independent charismatic ones.
I don't think NFI can be accused of any wrong-doings that don't take place anywhere else. It's just that the hot-house atmosphere makes it more intense. You get bigger bugs in a green-house (glass-house if you're not from the UK).
Gamaliel
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 7318 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
I think 'reports of an anti-women stance' is a bit unfair. They have a clear interpretation of the Bible that restricts their eldership to men. As do the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches (though not for exactly the same reasons) in their own way. The case for and against which is a dead horse on the Ship.
There are other criticisms of NFI that could be made independently of that.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That's interesting, Mark Wuntoo.
I was reflecting the other day on my time in a restorationist setting (18 years in an outfit not dissimilar to NFI). It struck me that whilst it undoubtedly helped me to develop my presentation skills (through extemporary prayer, 'prophesying', exhortation and the like) and this has helped me professionally, it also clipped my wings when it came to personal responsibility and decision-making. I still have a tendency to defer to other people's judgements or to canvass widely before making decisions.
I'm sure these tendencies were latent and not the 'fault' of the system ... but the environment did inculcate a somewhat limited and blinkered approach. Lots of talk about freedom but very little room to manouevre.
And you're right, the leadership of these outfits can be paranoid.
Gamaliel
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 7318 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
I think 'reports of an anti-women stance' is a bit unfair. They have a clear interpretation of the Bible that restricts their eldership to men. As do the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches (though not for exactly the same reasons) in their own way. The case for and against which is a dead horse on the Ship.
There are other criticisms of NFI that could be made independently of that.
I fail to see why it is unfair. IMO their interpretation of Scripture is plainly wrong. And they pick and choose which bits they like and dislike. More importantly (to me) they fly in the face of our postmodern society and the persistent voices rightly demanding equality. Of course, all Christians use the Bible for their own ends, but this doesn't make it right.
Posts: 1628 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Pentepogo - it would be good to hear from you. Do you have experience of New Frontiers? Is it positive?
What exactly, do you see as the 'new strategy' of which you write?
Posts: 1628 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
I think 'reports of an anti-women stance' is a bit unfair.
Try being a woman in a Newfrontiers church then. It's no fun at all. Especially if you have opinions, like questioning things, are articulate and single.
Auntie Doris x
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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 5966 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
I think 'reports of an anti-women stance' is a bit unfair. They have a clear interpretation of the Bible that restricts their eldership to men. As do the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches (though not for exactly the same reasons) in their own way. The case for and against which is a dead horse on the Ship.
There are other criticisms of NFI that could be made independently of that.
I fail to see why it is unfair. IMO their interpretation of Scripture is plainly wrong.
What's your opinion got to do with it? If their interpretation really is 'plainly wrong' you wouldn't need to qualify your assertion in the way that you do. Dead horse I know, but really! You can't decorate an absolutist cake with the icing of qualified humility.
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Formerly Call Me Numpty
Posts: 5782 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
So... no disability stuff, reports of an anti-women stance, and their website seems to show only white men leading things?
Which century is this? Someone remind me...
An NFI church leader who doesn't fit your observation.
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Formerly Call Me Numpty
Posts: 5782 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
So... no disability stuff, reports of an anti-women stance, and their website seems to show only white men leading things?
Which century is this? Someone remind me...
An NFI church leader who doesn't fit your observation.
Yeah Tope is very much the exception. There are very, very few Newfrontiers leaders who are not white and male.
Auntie Doris x
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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 5966 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
quote:
Yeah Tope is very much the exception. There are very, very few Newfrontiers leaders who are not white and male.
Sounds like a white male set up which has lost sight of the fact Jesus was not white so what Bible do they use
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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Doris:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
I think 'reports of an anti-women stance' is a bit unfair.
Try being a woman in a Newfrontiers church then. It's no fun at all. Especially if you have opinions, like questioning things, are articulate and single.
I certainly wouldn't want to be a single woman in a NFI church. I wouldn't want to be a single man in a NFI church either. I nearly did once and thought better of it.
I entirely disagree with the NFI view on woman elders, though it is a plausible one for a reformed evangelical to take, but I just didn't want this thread to be derailed/closed on a DH issue, when there are other issues to discuss that can be done here in Purgatory.
Such as whether NFI tolerate articulate congregation members in general etc. Answer - no.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
Our local NF church joined with us and a URC church to do a joint Alpha last year, which seems to have gone well, so they are not totally anti-ecumenical. Indeed one of their leaders came to preach at our service last Sunday and said that 'God had told him' to get to know our Rector...
Let's be careful of sour grapes here; they are doing powerfully and effectively the work of evangelism that vast swathes of the church have given up on as too hard. They are therefore visible proof that those other churches are making a mess of things - so of course those will look to knock NF as much as possible.
On the succession issue, it would appear they are succeeding in their aim of recreating the patterns of the early church - after all one of the reasons bishops were banned from being married was that there was a tendency for dioceses to be inherited by their sons.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
ES,
I agree that credit where credit is due. Also we have that command of Christ, 'Anyone who is not against me is for me'.
But....(and you knew there was going to be a but didn't you!), as good as reaching the 'unreachable' is, most of us here would say that 'sanctification' is equally as important as 'evangelism' (I'm using terms I don't actually personally use, since for me 'theosis' encaptures both concepts). I've been to the big tent gigs, I've run the outreach services to the 'unreachables', I done open air services in the heart of of 'heart-sink' estates. I agree that the front door is very enticing and open, but the 'transformability' of the system leaves a lot to be desired. Once the buzz wears off, once the going gets tough then so many just drift back out again. Despite all this mission to the poor, the average NFI church I've been to is still congregated by a mainly white, middle class demographic.
This is NOT to take the right intention away from them, it's just that the system doesn't deliver all that is promised.
This leads to one core problem at the heart of this stream's theology, which is how one addresses 'Sin'. The 'vibe' is so upbeat, so victorious, so 'all conquering', so 'my Sin has died with Christ' that where do you go when the all too real nature of the Christian ascesis becomes apparent? There's a lot to be said for the ongoing presence of confession/repentance within the Christian life and NOT just at the point of entry.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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