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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Do you believe angels appeared at Mons and white cavalry at Bethune?

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Do you believe angels appeared at Mons and white cavalry at Bethune?
NJA
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At critical stages in WWI and following national days of prayer I'm not aware of a serious argument against the cavalry and the arguments against the angels at Mons don't undermine what I believe to be good criteria for judging these things:
1) many independant witnesses on both sides
2) fits biblical evidence / God's faithfulness

What are you criteria for deciding whether you believe thses things?

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Yonatan
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In short, 'no', I don't. There is too little reliable first hand evidence. That the stories are consistent with the Bible (assuming they are), is not an argument in their favour - it merely means that someone with a belief in the Bible could also believe in the Mons phenomena without inconsistency.

If I were being asked to investigate similar claims today, I would want (amongst other things) eye witness testimony, psychological profiles of the witnesses, possible cultural cues for what they saw and precise data regarding the environment in which the sightings took place.

Oh and one other question, why is this in Heaven?

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Angela Montenegro
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
If I were being asked to investigate similar claims today, I would want (amongst other things) eye witness testimony, psychological profiles of the witnesses, possible cultural cues for what they saw and precise data regarding the environment in which the sightings took place.

Father Benedict Groeschel was speaking on EWTV yesterday (I don't make a habit of watching it, but my father does and I was visiting him) about one of the lesser known apparitions of the BVM. Someone in the audience asked him why the Church doesn't place more emphasis on phenomena such as these.

His answer (given quite diplomatically, I thought) was essentially that although the Church sees no harm in permitting the faithful to indulge in such devotions, it stops short of ratifying them with its official blessing, taking into consideration the very points that Yonatan raised above.

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"All the faith in the universe can never make something that is false, become truth." -- Las Vegas Richard

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Adeodatus
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I'm not sure angels appeared. I believe people saw angels.

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"Augustine, who knew about these things, had to be dragged to the bishop's chair." -- Michael Banner

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
What are you criteria for deciding whether you believe thses things?

My relationship with the witnesses.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Peppone
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Well, I didn't know much about the story so I wiki'd it, and the article there at least ascribes the story to a piece of patriotic short fiction published in a newsapaper. The author told people it was entirely fictional, and when asked by various priests and parishes if it could be reprinted for magazines and pamphlets, he said 'ok' but also pointed out that he couldn't provide sources for the story because there were none.

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I was clutching at straws and wrote your initials, while parish officials were safe in their hames.

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QJ
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sorry, I'm ignorant. the Miracle at Mons, what was it? do i google "Mons?"

Do you believe this miracle suggested you do something?

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QJ

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by QJ:
sorry, I'm ignorant. the Miracle at Mons, what was it? do i google "Mons?"

I googled "Angels at Mons" and found this.

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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.


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Firenze

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Historicy, veracity and political significance of heavenly apparitions - more Purgatory than Heaven (despite the angels)

Firenze
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Gildas
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Short story by Arthur Machen later taken by some to be an historical account of actual events. Much the same as the Onion spoof with J K Rowling as a practising diabolist that got taken up and copied by born again Christians as an awful warning. People believed them because they fitted peoples internal narrative preconceptions (God being on the side of the British, the Harry Potter books promoting occultism).

File under 'Human, all too human'.

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"Morning Star!" - Communist newspaper seller, circa late '80s.
"Morning Petal!" - traditional response to same.

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Firenze

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Which means I can now post a less fluffy opionion:

Do you believe angels appeared at Mons and white cavalry at Bethune?

No.

Given the ideological roots of WWI, it would indicate that God was a British imperialist rather than a German imperialist. If there is one instance of religious belief which is invariably pernicious, it is that God is on your side in anything involving killing.

The OP asks what is my criteria for judging these things? That would be the idiocy of anyone who thinks their political/national entity has supernatural backing.

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Low Treason
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AIUI, this story is all about a miraculous team of angels turning up to help out the British side against the Germans in the Battle of Mons in 1914, yes?

I think the fact that the British lost and the Germans won might provide a clue as to whether it was true or not [Disappointed]

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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.

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trouty
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Which means I can now post a less fluffy opionion:

Do you believe angels appeared at Mons and white cavalry at Bethune?

No.

Given the ideological roots of WWI, it would indicate that God was a British imperialist rather than a German imperialist. If there is one instance of religious belief which is invariably pernicious, it is that God is on your side in anything involving killing.

The OP asks what is my criteria for judging these things? That would be the idiocy of anyone who thinks their political/national entity has supernatural backing.

Your knowledge of the First World War seems very sketchy. Have you ever read any proper books on it or do you get your information from Blackadder? I'm not talking about the Angel, but about your kneejerk imperialism comments. Where was the British imperialism at Mons?
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Firenze

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quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
Your knowledge of the First World War seems very sketchy. Have you ever read any proper books on it or do you get your information from Blackadder? I'm not talking about the Angel, but about your kneejerk imperialism comments. Where was the British imperialism at Mons?

Your own take is not too perceptive if you don't grasp the import of the term 'imperialist' here (which I am applying to both Britain and Germany). You know, I take it, about the dimensions of the rivalry between those two countries in terms of naval power and overseas territories - (and the concommitant economic/industrial base)? Throw in Austro-Hungarian rule in central & eastern Europe, the French and their overseas dominions, and I cannot see how you can fail to see the War as a clash of empires, and about empire.

[ 22. February 2010, 13:37: Message edited by: Firenze ]

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Fuzzipeg
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The answer to the OP is no.

It does, how-ever raise the whole issue of apparitions. Is it necessary, if you are a Christian to believe in seeing visions and dreaming dreams?

Given the sensible posts by Yonatan and Amanda.

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ken
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What Firenze said. the Angel of Mons - and half a dozen other similar stories - came out of a piece of fiction by Arthur Machen (who is a good writer by the way - deserves to be read)

The Wikipedia article describes the process, though it does bend over backwards to be fair to the deluded. Really the whole thing never happened. No-one even mentioned it for six months after the battle.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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mousethief

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What Firenze said. And yes I've read a mess of books.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Gamaliel
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I grew up a few miles from where Arthur Machen was born so have long been aware of 'The Bowmen' and the Angels of Mons legends.

As has been said, Machen himself tried to damp down the myth but through jingoism and wishful thinking it spiralled out of control.

One can perhaps understand this in the immediate context of the First World War. But what I don't get is how NJA, all this time later, seems to take it seriously.

Does it fit in with your church's whacky British Israelite views, NJA?

Oh ... and by the way, although technically a German victory, Mons was seen as a British moral victory, rather like Dunkirk in WW2. We're good at that, us Brits. [Biased]

But it was certainly a well-executed tactical withdrawal and the 'Old Contemptibles' inflicted very heavy casualties on the Kaiser's troops. The fire from their Lee Enfields was so intense that the Germans thought they were facing batteries of machine guns.

The British regulars knew how to conduct a fighting withdrawal from experience in Afghanistan. It was their marksmanship and field craft that prevented them from being overwhelmed by a considerably larger German force. No need for apparitions and so forth.

And divine intervention didn't prevent either the RC French and the Protestant/RC Germans and Brits from slugging it out murderously in the trenches for the next four bloody years.

Some would argue that the Americans tipped the balance when they came into the War in 1917. Others that their intervention came just as the Germans were giving way. At any rate, the protagonists were all flesh and blood. There was certainly plenty of that.

[Votive]

Gamaliel

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Stetson
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Sorta vaguely related to the general theme, but The Necronomicon is a fictional book, created by H.P. Lovecraft, which some occultists claim actually exists. I remember purported translations of the book selling at my local chain bookstore, next to copies of The Satanic Bible.

And since there are probably a few people on here who know a lot more about H.P. than I do, I should probably leave my commentary at that.

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I have the power...Lucifer is Lord!

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Marama
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Surely any real angelic visitation would have put a stop, angelically, to the whole bloody business.
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Horseman Bree
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One aspect of this would be that mass hysteria and the fabrication of weird "true" stories doesn't need the Internet.

But the 'Net does make the whole process a lot quicker!

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It's Not That Simple

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Robert Armin

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May I remind all of you who have answered the OP that your opinions are irrelevant? After all you don't speak in tongues, therefore you are not born again, therefore you are carnal and cannot understand spiritual things. Please be quiet, and listen to words of spiritual wisdom. [Two face]

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Yonatan
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
therefore you are carnal....

Chance would be a fine thing!

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"We make our lives out of chaos and hope... and love."
Angela Montenegro
'Bones'

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
May I remind all of you who have answered the OP that your opinions are irrelevant? After all you don't speak in tongues, therefore you are not born again, therefore you are carnal and cannot understand spiritual things. Please be quiet, and listen to words of spiritual wisdom. [Two face]

Wait! I can speak in tongues. Does that mean I get spiritual wisdom? Where do I sign?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Leaf
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Please don't post in tongues.
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mousethief

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No fear. Makes the screen soggy.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Saul the Apostle
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What did the huns see then?

Both sides were governed by imperialistic-nationalistic warmongers.

World war 1 was a nationalists dream until the butchers bill starting to turn up late in 1914 and 1915.

Why would God have a 'special' relationship with the allied side as opposed to a broadly similar opponent? Were the huns all beast who ate children? Of course they weren't.

I think its jingoistic nonsense - by the way I do believe angels are God's meesengers though I don't believe God was/is particular about which ''side'' we're on; more whats in our hearts really.

Saul

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PaulBC
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Both these events were the out pouring of jangled nerves produce apparations , at least in minds of troops under immense pressure . These events then got caught up by the popular press of the day and ended up being propoganda .
For the record I do believe that the BVM andf indeed Jesus may put in appearances Fatima 1917 being s prime example . So was there an angelica horde at Mons ? Who knows? None of us were there . [Smile] [Angel]

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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8

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teddybear
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Here is a good brief summary of the story.
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Saul the Apostle
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To answer the question, I don't believe that Angels manifested over Mons, any more than pink teddy bears manifest themselves over the Houses of Parliament or polka dotted leprechauns hover over the Guiness factory in Dublin.

If anything in 1914 there was needless slaughter being done in the name of a soon to be discredited arrogant and jingoistic imperialism on both sides. Unlike the Nazi holocaust IMO in WW1 there was a cigarette papers difference between Imperial Germany and Imperial Britain. Both ruling classes were intent on agrandisment of the worst inflated kind.

Saul

[ 25. February 2010, 19:06: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]

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I am not who you think I am. I repeat I am not who you think I am.

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