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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Spiritual Director
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tallmaninthecnr
Shipmate
# 15429
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Posted
Not sure if this is the right forum but I am interested in peoples views on the value/necessity of a Spiritual Director.
I am not associated with any particular church or denomination but feel drawn to exploring a deeper spiritual life (currently reading 'New Seeds of Contemplation' by Thomas Merton) and from his writing and the writings of the Fathers & Mothers it would seem that having a director or someone we are submitted to is crucial?
Your opinions would be appreciated.
Posts: 197 | From: Auckland, NZ | Registered: Jan 2010
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Yonatan
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
I certainly wouldn't argue that it is crucial - if that were the case most Christians would be in deep doo doo. It might have been crucial for someone in Merton's situation where he was more removed from the world and other perspectives. I am uneasy with your term 'submitted'. Personally, I would never submit to another human being - but perhaps we are understanding the term in slightly different ways. How do you understand the term? One final point which occurred to me was that as far as I am aware Spiritual Directors exist within a particular faith tradition. If you are not currently 'associated with any particular church or denomination', what criteria will you use to decide which SD is right for you?
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"We make our lives out of chaos and hope... and love."
Posts: 2550 | From: Bolton, Lancashire | Registered: Feb 2006
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
I'd be inclined to use 'respect,' rather than 'submitted.'
The Retreat Association UK has a guide which you might find useful tallman.
Up to now, spiritual directors have tended to be found more in a particular part of the ecclesiastical spectrum, but this does appear to be changing. In any case, any director/accompanist worth their salt will be open to a wide range of traditions.
Good luck in your search.
Posts: 4649 | From: The Study | Registered: Oct 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
I got involved with a spiritual director when encouraged through my training for ordained ministry. We don't meet over frequently but it is a really good relationship and I benefit hugely by someone asking those profound questions of my life.
With church as job and layers of blurred relationships with other Christians locally - am I minister, colleague, friend, confidant, boss??
I find it useful to have something formal elsewhere where whatever I say won't confuse other relationships.
Is it necessary? Well I think it is for me living this vocation, for everyone? Well in the Christian life nothing is necessary except to believe - the rest is just an outworking of that and response to it.
Find whatever way helps you grow. I agree that you need to think about who would be a SD and really what you want that to be about, whether general life accountability or actively setting things to study and consider together.
The right relationship is important too - someone who you feel safe to let down your defences with and yet also tough enough to challenge you when needed.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 989 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Personally, I would never submit to another human being
Guessing you won't be getting married then ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Or you'll be widening your definition of "submit" away from the simple hierarchical one into something with more breadth and depth. I'd also suggest that with a Spiritual Director, it's a kind of submission you can take yourself out of at any point.
That said, I'm intrigued as to what the answers will be. Someone's suggested to me that I might find it helpful to have a Spiritual Director, possibly just for 'a season' as it were, which has thrown up the "Fine, but how the heck do I find one?!" issue, especially as the suggestion was to find one outside of my normal situation.
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Vain witterings
Vain pretentions
Posts: 895 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tallmaninthecnr:
Not sure if this is the right forum but I am interested in peoples views on the value/necessity of a Spiritual Director.
I am not associated with any particular church or denomination but feel drawn to exploring a deeper spiritual life (currently reading 'New Seeds of Contemplation' by Thomas Merton) and from his writing and the writings of the Fathers & Mothers it would seem that having a director or someone we are submitted to is crucial?
Your opinions would be appreciated.
After half a century of living within a dogmatic religion (Mormonism) that reveres the "authority" of spiritual leaders, my opinion is that the sole positive function of organized religion is to benefit the group. The notion that one's "confessor" (bishop, guru, oracle, whathaveyou) is required in order to adequately communicate one-on-one with "God" is fallacious. Since no two of us are alike, it follows that organized religion, demanding that everyone fit him/herself to the same "pigeon hole" is not logical. If "God" had intended us to become all alike we would be more alike in the first place. If the rejoinder to this is: "In Christ we become like God and are reborn as one", then I call foul. This sort of cultist attitude spawns evil control every time. "Be one as my Father and I are one", simply means "seeing eye-to-eye" on all things to do with justice and its opposite. For instance, the City of Enoch worked as a utopian society simply because every individual "citizen" wanted what was best for every other citizen: "there were no poor among them." It didn't mean that every soul tried to be alike in their interests, talents, modes of expression, likes and dislikes. They dealt with each other justly, and could not engage in social oneupsmanship games.
A spiritual leader in this kind of society is merely an example figure: s/he leads solely by example and imposes no dogmatic authority on anyone. Such a person is the closest to a true friend we will ever find. And yes, they can give good advice. But they have no authority or even any wish to impose themselves between any of us and "God"....
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
I have had a couple of spiritual directors at various stages of my life. I don't think of myself 'submitting' to my present SD who is generally extremely non-directive. However, when he is directive I listen, discern, and follow his advice/ suggestion/ direction if that seems right. He gives me a space to reflect on my life, my prayer, my behaviour and my relationship with God. If you can find the person who fits with you it is an incredibly valuable relationship.
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That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 433 | From: returned to the middle bit at the bottom | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I would agree that having some sort of spiritual director can be of tremendous benefit in the spiritual walk. I suspect that one of the first things such a spiritual director will suggest to you is that you become associated with some church where you are worshipping regularly with other believers.
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“Be not afraid does not mean we cannot have fear… the words say we do not need to be the fear we have… We have places of fear inside of us, but we have other places—with names like trust & hope & faith” -P. Palmer
Posts: 5683 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
After half a century of living within a dogmatic religion (Mormonism) that reveres the "authority" of spiritual leaders, my opinion is that the sole positive function of organized religion is to benefit the group. The notion that one's "confessor" (bishop, guru, oracle, whathaveyou) is required in order to adequately communicate one-on-one with "God" is fallacious.
I think this is where the understanding of the concept of Spiritual Director hits a cultural wall. A Spiritual Director is not someone who tells you "UR DOIN CHRISTIAN RONG" and smacks you with Holy Truth and Infallible Wisdom until you are the Perfect Person™.
It's more along the lines of a medical specialist--- if priests and preachers are physicians, Spiritual Directors are like psychologists. You go, you talk it out, you get some tools to help you keep working it out.
And if something's not working for you, you can tell your Spiritual Director to stuff it and go find a new one without impacting your church membership or fear of reprisal from church hierarchy.
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As your Senior Warden, all I ask is unswerving loyalty and blind obedience.
--Me, to the vestry at my parish.
And then they laughed for some reason.
Shavin' my head, curin' cancer.
Posts: 10187 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
After half a century of living within a dogmatic religion (Mormonism) that reveres the "authority" of spiritual leaders, my opinion is that the sole positive function of organized religion is to benefit the group. The notion that one's "confessor" (bishop, guru, oracle, whathaveyou) is required in order to adequately communicate one-on-one with "God" is fallacious.
I think this is where the understanding of the concept of Spiritual Director hits a cultural wall. A Spiritual Director is not someone who tells you "UR DOIN CHRISTIAN RONG" and smacks you with Holy Truth and Infallible Wisdom until you are the Perfect Person™.
It's more along the lines of a medical specialist--- if priests and preachers are physicians, Spiritual Directors are like psychologists. You go, you talk it out, you get some tools to help you keep working it out.
And if something's not working for you, you can tell your Spiritual Director to stuff it and go find a new one without impacting your church membership or fear of reprisal from church hierarchy.
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As your Senior Warden, all I ask is unswerving loyalty and blind obedience.
--Me, to the vestry at my parish.
And then they laughed for some reason.
Shavin' my head, curin' cancer.
Posts: 10187 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Benny Diction 2
Shipmate
# 14159
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Posted
I too was encouraged to get a spiritual director during pre ordination training. And I rmember huffing and puffing about it. (I think my prejudices were coloured by the Starbridge novels of Susan Howatch in which a slightly odd hippy type spiritual director features.)
Starbridge
However, I decided to give it a go and have been very fortunate in clikcing with my SD from the off. I find our meetings very valuable and wouldn't be without one now.
At the risk of stating the obvious finding he person right for you is they key.
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Benny Diction
"The Labour party has never been a socialist party, although there have always been socialists in it - a bit like Christians in the Church of England." Tony Benn
Posts: 859 | From: Home of the magic roundabout | Registered: Oct 2008
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ErinBear
Shipmate
# 13173
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Posted
I will chime in on the discussion. I have seen a fellow who is both a spiritual director and a pastoral counselor. When we meet, we discuss both areas, things that fall into the area of spiritual direction, and also counseling issues. I've been extremely thankful I found him a few years ago. It's been a huge blessing in my life.
I've met him and one other spiritual director briefly. In both cases, they offered caring listening regarding spiritual matters, and shared ideas. Neither one was the sort of person who was "ruling with an iron hand" in the working relationship. Sometimes they offered ideas for my spiritual practice, but there was no pressure; it was only for me to try if it sounded good to me. Similarly they might recommend books, but on the same principle...I would read them only if it sounded like it was a good fit for me. There was never any pressure. The topics we discussed have always been up to me, with a bit of exception on our first meeting when they asked some questions to get to know me, and that seems fair. I've been so thankful for this opportunity to talk about spiritual matters. For me it's been exceptionally helpful.
As far as saying it's necessary for everyone, I wouldn't go that far. It isn't possible, for one. Not everyone could work that out, I'm sure, and not everyone would want to do so. But I think there are a lot of people who would enjoy the process and could grow through it if they chose to pursue it. I know I have. I think finding a spiritual director who is a good match for you is probably quite important, much as you would endeavor to find a counselor who is a good fit.
Blessings,
Erin
Posts: 1784 | From: California, USA | Registered: Nov 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I have sought some sort of director/advice with a few people. So far few have lasted more than one or two sessions.
The ones who are church pastors or church staff tell me two things:
1. I should get more involved in church - one advised that in spite of my already spending 20+ hours a week on church projects and falling behind in my work; another was distressed that I'm involved in a community project that is not church sponsored. The church organization and more of it is their focus.
2. When I fussed about some illegal and anti-ten commandments stuff officially endorsed by the church, several told me I have to accept it, "it's wrong but it's not going to change, and you are wrong to not participate in it." You are to do whatever the church organization wants you to do.
Their "guidance" was not focused on my needs but on their love of the church organization and belief everyone should put church (organization) first (and uncritically) in their life.
None of them were willing to suggest I focus less time and attention on church or change churches (both of which were what I needed to do).
What has worked for me is a few people who have a somewhat uncomfortable relationship with the institutional church. A lay leader who has been a renegade in a few battles in his own church made some really helpful comments. A clergy person who has dropped out of parish church work to form his own separate ministry so he can pursue God more actively encourages me to pursue God and does NOT assume that means "go to church more."
Two issues I am seeing are (a) know their bias before you walk in the door. Church-career people are going to tell you to get more involved in church, that is the only tool they know for spiritual growth.
(b) There are some real good lay people who can give you the affirmation or next step you need. Don't get stuck on the idea of a "pro" with a "spiritual director" certificate.
(c) if "go to church more" isn't working to get you to the next step, go find some people whose next step was not "more church as it is" and who are showing vibrant God-aware life as a result.
But mostly I think the answer is prayer. God knows better than anyone else what you need next. If you are persistently asking God, God is going to lead you step by step even though you don't realize at first that you are getting the guidance or the new awareness you needed next.
[ 21. March 2010, 17:12: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
Posts: 4255 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Belle Ringer said
'I have sought some sort of director/advice with a few people. So far few have lasted more than one or two sessions.
The ones who are church pastors or church staff tell me two things:
1. I should get more involved in church - one advised that in spite of my already spending 20+ hours a week on church projects and falling behind in my work; another was distressed that I'm involved in a community project that is not church sponsored. The church organization and more of it is their focus.
2. When I fussed about some illegal and anti-ten commandments stuff officially endorsed by the church, several told me I have to accept it, "it's wrong but it's not going to change, and you are wrong to not participate in it." You are to do whatever the church organization wants you to do.
Their "guidance" was not focused on my needs but on their love of the church organization and belief everyone should put church (organization) first (and uncritically) in their life.
None of them were willing to suggest I focus less time and attention on church or change churches (both of which were what I needed to do).
...
Two issues I am seeing are (a) know their bias before you walk in the door. Church-career people are going to tell you to get more involved in church, that is the only tool they know for spiritual growth.'
I am sorry you have had such a bad experience with the 'professionals'. I fully endorse going to whoever has the gifting. Though many may have had training to enhance the gift.
The responses you refer to are not just not spiritual direction but bad pastoral care generally.
Just don't evaluate all of us who get our living from the church with the same brush. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 989 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
You can't pick the fruit you want off a barren tree, or off one that makes completely different fruit.
When looking for a Spiritual Director you've got to be a Fruit Inspector.
Have they got years of experience following God in a way you can relate to? Have they got "personal" fruit that looks like what you want?
I like "Mentor" better. Or "Teacher". "Spiritual Director" sounds like a cop standing by a broken traffic light.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I've had a spiritual director for a year now...an Episcopal church in the college town down the interstate sponsors the spiritual direction, and the spiritual directors are two RC laypeople who've gone through some fairly long and intensive training through their local diocese. (Let's hear it for boots-on-the-ground ecumenism!) We meet on a once-a-month basis plus e-mail contact.
Our synod -- synod=diocese, more or less, in the ELCA -- recently enlisted the services of a spiritual director, a nun from a convent in our state that offers a well-regarded spiritual direction program.
I certainly don't "submit" to my spiritual director. He is more of a spiritual friend who isn't a part of my own congregation, who has a more objective outlook, to whom I can talk about my spiritual life and my work in my parish. One of his perennial questions is, "Where is God in [whatever it is we're talking about]?"
I don't think that everyone needs a spiritual director; but I think for any of us in a position of responsibility in the church it's a good thing to have, in the same way that it's a good thing for a therapist to have a therapist.
[ 21. March 2010, 19:43: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 5836 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I have sought some sort of director/advice with a few people. So far few have lasted more than one or two sessions.
The ones who are church pastors or church staff tell me... I should get more involved in church - one advised that in spite of my already spending 20+ hours a week on church projects and falling behind in my work; another was distressed that I'm involved in a community project that is not church sponsored. The church organization and more of it is their focus.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) Whatever this is, it is NOT spiritual direction. In fact, a director is not there to give 'advice' of whatever sort. His/her role is to listen to the fellow-pilgrim and help them discern how God is working in their lives. It might very well be that God is saying to someone, 'step back', 'church' is not helpful for you at the moment.
We have inherited this misleading title from Christian tradition, but no reputable 'spiritual director' would see their role as 'directing' another in the sense of telling them what to do. Nevertheless the concept of 'direction' is helpful in that it implies a journey. The only true director is God, but another human being can often be invaluable in helping the pilgrim discern what God is saying.
I wonder if those who say that they have no need of such help, because their relationship is with God alone, are deluding themselves. It's certainly a break from the biblical and traditional principle that 'we are all members one of another.' That's not to say that every Christian ought to have a formal 'spiritual director', though many more would benefit. Some church communities have many opportunities, through prayer groups, bible-study and the like, to support one another in an equally valuable way. Others - perhaps the more hierarchical and formal traditions - make much of the role of the priest.
The great thing about the growth of this ministry in recent years is that it is largely a lay ministry. Those who exercise it need some sort of training in listening and discerning, but they are first and foremost fellow-pilgrims on the same journey, not gurus pontificating from a position of authority.
Those of us who are clergy and offering the ministry have to unlearn a lot. What is necessary in running a parish or presiding at the liturgy is often a hindrance. Control freaks need not apply.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 11591 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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tallmaninthecnr
Shipmate
# 15429
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Posted
Thank you to all who have replied, your answers are very helpful. I apologoise to those who were offended by the term 'submitted' I guess it is all about how we view ourselves. In this case I see it not in the sense that I am giving up anything to the person concerned but that I am recognizing that in these matters they are more experienced (this does not always make them right). If you do find the right person (and I agree this is crucial) then 'submission' to their direction would be part of the deal the other option would be to debate everything or just do 'what I think is right', and given that part of the purpose would be to try and ensure that I was not drifting in areas of the Spiritual that could/would be hazardous, this would not make sense. Anyway I do not see being submitted to someone to whom I have accorded authority (in an area) as anyway diminishing me or who I am in Christ.
To the Merlinthemad, I am sad that you have had such a painful past and am glad that you have found your way out of it, but I think you may have misinterpreted the role of a SD or what I am looking for at least and maybe that is my fault for my OP being so sparse in detail.
Once again thanks to everyone.
[ 21. March 2010, 21:18: Message edited by: tallmaninthecnr ]
Posts: 197 | From: Auckland, NZ | Registered: Jan 2010
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
I have had three spiritual directors over the years two were from my own faith tradition and one was not. Each time I prayed for a spiritual director they appeared in my life, they were all very different, but each was a blessing in their own way. So if you are seeking a spiritual director my advice is to pray. I have also been trained and acted as a spiritual director for others. I understand the role of spiritual director to simply be someone that you invite to share your spiritual journey, that is someone to walk along side and share your joys and concerns. They are to offer encouragement and a good ear to listen and feed back to you what they hear. Perhaps now and again they might suggest a spiritual aid such as a form of prayer or a book that you might find helpful. If a spiritual director starts telling you how to live your life, my advice is find a new director.
I must add that I find it a very humble experience to be invited to share someone's spiritual life.
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"Who am I ? They mock me, these lonely questions of mine. Whoever I am, Thou knowest, O God, I am thine."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Posts: 2019 | From: Third planet from the sun. | Registered: Nov 2004
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tallmaninthecnr:
...To the Merlinthemad, I am sad that you have had such a painful past and am glad that you have found your way out of it, but I think you may have misinterpreted the role of a SD or what I am looking for at least and maybe that is my fault for my OP being so sparse in detail.
...
I don't want to give a false impression here. My spirituality hasn't been abused by bad counsel. Nor is the Mormon religion inundated with power freaks in high places. The objection I was addressing is the "authority figure". These often are also "spiritual directors" in the personal sense. Usually they are self-effacing people who give good counsel after praying (and even fasting) for inspiration.
The trouble with this "system" is that it does divide those who have "authority to speak for God" from those who do not. And, imho, nobody has any authority to speak for "God" to another person.
As other posts after my first one clarified, a "spiritual director" is more a "mentor" with no assumed authority within a dogmatic religion hierarchy. A mentor can be anyone that you look up to, view as a role model and is a close friend. This kind of relationship if well chosen can be a very helpful, good thing....
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Eugene Peterson describes a spiritual director as one who draws attention to God, causes you to notice what God is doing. That seems closer to what we're talking about.
I think of Eli in 1 Sam. 3. God is talking to Samuel, not Eli. But Samuel needs Eli to help him recognize that is who is speaking to him. Eli's only directive to Samuel is "listen".
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“Be not afraid does not mean we cannot have fear… the words say we do not need to be the fear we have… We have places of fear inside of us, but we have other places—with names like trust & hope & faith” -P. Palmer
Posts: 5683 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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tallmaninthecnr
Shipmate
# 15429
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
As other posts after my first one clarified, a "spiritual director" is more a "mentor" with no assumed authority within a dogmatic religion hierarchy. A mentor can be anyone that you look up to, view as a role model and is a close friend. This kind of relationship if well chosen can be a very helpful, good thing....
I doubt that any SD would 'assume authority' indeed I doubt anyone whose desire was draw nearer to the One and had done so over a period of time (as I would expect a SD to have done) would consider authority as something to be grasped, just the opposite, I also don't see any comparison between a SD and a mentor. We are talking about a journey beyond silence, beyond our rational comprehension, not something you are taught or learn it is something experienced and there are dangers.
I don't think one looks up to a SD I think one acknowledges that they are someone who has 'gone before' and has a deeper understanding of the 'challenges' that can be faced, and if you find a person in whom you trust, then I also (personally) don't have a problem submitting to their guidance otherwise what would be the point. We are talking about sharing at a deeply intimate level and I would think that while you would develop a relationship with the SD I doubt they would encourage it to turn into 'close friendship'.
anyway thanks for offering an opinion, it is good to have different perspectives.
Posts: 197 | From: Auckland, NZ | Registered: Jan 2010
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
Tallman, I guess I don't understand your distinctions.
If you "look up to someone" who has more experience than you do, how is that not approaching the realtionship as if submitting to a mentor?
And how would being a close friend be detrimental to that? Didn't Jesus Christ call those he chose his "friends"?
How can a spiritual director be effective if the seeker would not want them for a friend? And how can someone who is spiritually advanced enough to be a spiritual director NOT be friends with others who are also seeking?...
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
How can a spiritual director be effective if the seeker would not want them for a friend? And how can someone who is spiritually advanced enough to be a spiritual director NOT be friends with others who are also seeking?...
If you're friends at a very deep level (usually because you've known that person for some considerable time) you're possibly able to speak honestly with them without flannelling, and tell them when they are deluding themselves. But most 'friendship' doesn't operate at that level and there are certain things we won't talk about and certain truths we refrain from speaking, in order to preserve bonhomie.
I suppose the former sort of friend could become a sort of 'alternative' spiritual director. But normally the SD needs to preserve some distance in order to take an objective view. Of course the relationship must involve mutual respect, and it is bound to be 'friendly' in that sense. That shouldn't preclude the odd social encounter over a pint or whatever, but not becoming 'best mates'.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 11591 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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tallmaninthecnr
Shipmate
# 15429
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Posted
Tks Angloid
Melinthmad - I think we just agree to disagree *smile* as our perspectives on the matter are different.
Posts: 197 | From: Auckland, NZ | Registered: Jan 2010
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
How can a spiritual director be effective if the seeker would not want them for a friend? And how can someone who is spiritually advanced enough to be a spiritual director NOT be friends with others who are also seeking?...
If you're friends at a very deep level (usually because you've known that person for some considerable time) you're possibly able to speak honestly with them without flannelling, and tell them when they are deluding themselves. But most 'friendship' doesn't operate at that level and there are certain things we won't talk about and certain truths we refrain from speaking, in order to preserve bonhomie.
Here's the problem: I don't see such shallow acquaintences as "friends" at all. Someone who knows you thoroughly and is a friend (not all who know you thoroughly are necessarily friendly) may be capable of offering good advice.
quote:
I suppose the former sort of friend could become a sort of 'alternative' spiritual director. But normally the SD needs to preserve some distance in order to take an objective view. Of course the relationship must involve mutual respect, and it is bound to be 'friendly' in that sense. That shouldn't preclude the odd social encounter over a pint or whatever, but not becoming 'best mates'.
This is an odd concept to me: how a person who doesn't know you very well could know what you need spiritually! This is probably the same puzzlement which underscores my distrust of "professional" counselors across the board: they educate themselves to spot mental and emotional "disease" and treat it like you would a common virus. Pat questions and suitable answers are how they diagnose. Most of them (as in all human endeavor) suck at their job and medicate rather than cure.
This kind of approach would be even LESS effective when dealing with an individual who is spiritually seeking. At best, a SD who is only a casual acquaintence, could only discuss options, not offer any confident knowledge about what that person needs most. Only a close friend who is more spiritually accute could offer useful, applicable direction.
YMMV, of course (tallman), as in all things. But that's how I see it....
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
FWIW I have had a superb SD for more than two years, found by recommendation and personal approach but also originally locatable through the major Spiritual Direction networks. It works as a Professional Friendship, for the want of a better phrase, since the key thing with any such relationship is to find someone you can trust totally, and talk with about absolutely anything of relevance to your life's journey. Worth their weight in gold if you find a good one.
Posts: 5066 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Is spiritual direction any different from spiritual mentoring?
Posts: 1896 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
How can a spiritual director be effective if the seeker would not want them for a friend? And how can someone who is spiritually advanced enough to be a spiritual director NOT be friends with others who are also seeking?...
If you're friends at a very deep level (usually because you've known that person for some considerable time) you're possibly able to speak honestly with them without flannelling, and tell them when they are deluding themselves. But most 'friendship' doesn't operate at that level and there are certain things we won't talk about and certain truths we refrain from speaking, in order to preserve bonhomie.
Here's the problem: I don't see such shallow acquaintences as "friends" at all. Someone who knows you thoroughly and is a friend (not all who know you thoroughly are necessarily friendly) may be capable of offering good advice.
Instead of looking at it as a personal relationship, look at it as a professional relationship, much the same as a patient to a psychologist. You don't want to be buddy-buddy with your shrink (and professional ethics codes for psychologists forbid it, anyway), but you trust they have the training and the experience to handle your delicate psyche with care and encouragement.
As I understand it [and I'm open to correction], most Spiritual Directors don't do the gig for free. Often, though, it's a "donations accepted" or "Sliding scale offered" situation, but if I'm exchanging money for time, this is not a friendship, it's a professional relationship with certain expectations therein.
[ 23. March 2010, 17:37: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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As your Senior Warden, all I ask is unswerving loyalty and blind obedience.
--Me, to the vestry at my parish.
And then they laughed for some reason.
Shavin' my head, curin' cancer.
Posts: 10187 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
As I understand it [and I'm open to correction], most Spiritual Directors don't do the gig for free. Often, though, it's a "donations accepted" or "Sliding scale offered" situation, but if I'm exchanging money for time, this is not a friendship, it's a professional relationship with certain expectations therein.
Another pond difference perhaps. I am aware of an increasing number of directors in this country who need to charge to keep body and soul together, but by and large (at least in the C of E) it's expected that people do this work voluntarily. Kenneth Leech has warned of the dangers of increasing professionalisation of this ministry, and this has got to be kept in balance with the need for training and skill.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Posts: 11591 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I've never had an SD on either side of the pond who would accept payment.
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'I must plunge again and again in the water of doubt.' Wittgenstein
'There's too much lime in the world and not enough gin.' Frank O'Hara
Posts: 7244 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I've never had an SD on either side of the pond who would accept payment.
There is one I tried (who I didn't actually get on with, I felt, so didn't return), who made a clumsy attempt at asking for a donation, and then suggesting how much that donation should be.
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
My SD program accepts a small "suggested donation," which I would think only covers the SD's mileage.
Now, our synod's spiritual director is considered a staffperson, so there must be more of a formal payment arrangement there.
[ 24. March 2010, 12:27: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 5836 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Evensong
Ship's Pomo
# 14696
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How do you know when you've met "the right one"?
Posts: 7426 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
This concept gets more bizarre to me.
Above, the comparison to a psychologist (psychiatrist) is made: this gets to the heart of my skepticism because I don't trust "shrinks" either. They get "papered" so that they can charge enormous fees to sit and listen to you natter and naybob with yourself. It's "the system", however, and anyone wanting to help make a difference in other people's lives this way has to go through all the hoops to get the "paper".
But SDs are just ordinary listening ears (sympathetic ones too, I'd wager, the vast majority of the time). But start adding money to the recipe and that will go away in direct proportion. SDs seem rather like homeopathics compared to "papered" psychs.
Imho, too many people are too prone to "dump" verbally and emotionally when they get someone alone who is ostensibly listening to them. I am skeptical that this approach to vetting personal problems is really effective. It seems to me to morph into another kind of addiction: the need to get someone off by yourself so that you can run off at the mouth - vetting, purging, venting, whathaveyou.
A "bosom friend" would be far better and more genuinely devoted to your welfare, and with a life commitment, not money, as the motivation....
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
A "bosom friend" would be far better and more genuinely devoted to your welfare, and with a life commitment, not money, as the motivation....
But none of my "bosom friends" have the knowledge or experience to be able to suggest to me books that could help me in my spiritual journey or to suggest different methods of praying that might work for me or anything else a trained SD would do for me.
I don't have a SD but when I have been on Individually Guided Retreats, I have been very impressed with my guide's knowledge of the Bible and ability to choose just the right passage for me at that time.
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Posts: 1254 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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